Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

ulsteru20s

Lancaster created such a machine right down the levels at leinster, that it tended to make some leinster players overrated imo. Like Jimmy O Brien is a good player who would have had his weaknesses way more exposed in other worse teams.

With Nienebar, those players are getting exposed a little more often than just in the absolutely biggest games.

I find it hard to blame that on Cullen. To me Cullen's main achievement is that Leinster so rarely miss in academy choices, and he is able to keep so many good players happy. That is hard to do.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122264604#Comment_122264604

Indeed. Dublin’s dominance has very little to do with its management. There’s a strong case to divide Dublin up to make the contest more interesting. Perhaps a debate for another thread.

Ardillaun

South Africa has huge forwards and sprinter-level wingers (and scrum halves) coming off the assembly line all the time. We’re always going to be struggling to close that gap.

tall chapy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122264517#Comment_122264517

Fair point, but I was more hoping that McNamara would come in before Tyler Bleyendaal. Our attack was fine last year, the only big factor that has change is Neinaber coming in as a defence coach and yet having an impact on our attack. I now say to many non rugby fans who ask me about Leinster, I say that last year we cut teams apart like a sword, this year Leinster have decided for some reason to use a hammer.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122267086#Comment_122267086

Attack and defense are related concepts. Like, let's say he wants to play a highly aggressive defense… that requires more energy. You probably can't tack on a high ball in play time offense on top of that effectively.

Also, tactically if you have a really aggressive defense you spend alot of time perfecting, you might want to kick the ball away specifcally to play defense as you are really good at it. You can use that defense to create turnovers and penalties in an area of the field the opposition doesn't want to play in.

johnh6767

So many issues to discuss and get the head clear on at the end of a season.

Final thoughts are

1 Coaches don’t play the game , Leo is DOR and it’s hard to see who could do a better job. Nienaber has enough credit to deserve a full season irrational to demand more in such a timeline . Lancaster is a loss for sure but give it time

2 Poor squad selection with the benefit of hindsight for SA & Ulster caused an away SF which was the killer blow for URC success. Risk taken with European cup trophy at the forefront, hero if the Frawley drop goal was a metre to the right in final play of full time v Toulouse , sadly ends at hero to zero in extra time

3 9/10 combo an issue with JGP playing to his highest level and now almost as important to Leinster as Johnny was, i stress almost, and Johnny departure is 2nd only to BOD at his peak, one to debate which says it all. Age factor now crucial at 9 so the Gunne / Foley time needs now to come into its own. Same for Sam at 10, time to take risk for next season.

4 We expect too much and sometimes live in a bubble. We are competing in 2 simultaneous competitions and that takes its tole particularly at the back end of the season . Sometimes I read the steam and it’s as if Leinster is well ahead of competition, simply not true , and for all the debate Leinster is not Ireland , that’s an insult to 40% of the squad

5 We continue to do well and enjoy our rugby , let’s not lose sight of what we have . If we expect to win trophies every year were in for a dismal life , each competition is severely contested and SA have brought a huge and positive dimension to URC

ersatz

👆#5 is rubbish. The starting Leinster team is the Irl team minus Beirne and Crowley, maybe POM, and it includes their bench replacements. I hope Farrell can get them playing A LOT better than Leinster are for the last couple of seasons., as he’s been doing.

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122267303#Comment_122267303

And minus Hansen, Keenan and Aki.

johnh6767

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122267314#Comment_122267314

exactly

Former Former Former

hang on.

The last couple of weeks have been very disappointing.

Prior to that. We finished top seed in the European pool stages. We beat LAR twice. We beat Munster twice. We hammered a very similar Bulls team to that which beat us yesterday. We were inches away from a European win.

We are looking for marginal improvements in key areas. We do not need major surgery, we don’t need a clear out of coaches and it’s absolute bollocks that Farrell has these players playing “a LOT” better than Leinster. Absolute bollocks

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122267448#Comment_122267448

No we don't

After ever loss the over the top reaction happens.

First off I said at start of season that Leinster might need to write it off because of the flux with coachs, I also said we might need to leve Europe and concentrate on URC

Didn't really work out but going into next season

We have 3 options at 10, H Byrne has got loads more minutes and more than capable of running the team in URC and in Europe up till past group stages. Predergast as well git more minutes and will be better for it.

Ross is Ross

Big Joe showed what he can do

Plus the rest of the team is not falling apart due to age

We also have a good group of young players coming that can regenerate the team.

Farrell doesn't have them playing a lot better than for Leinster, Farrell will get the benefit of the players having a game at altitiude

corny

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122263499#Comment_122263499

Look he has his strengths. He's a good kicker, his pass is excellent and he's reliable in defence. You're right of course… he's not good enough for Leinster in games like this, but I can like you as a player even if that's true.

hold my beer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122266067#Comment_122266067

G'wan then, tell us why Leinster aren't liked.

dockysher

leinster need aki, Hansen, Crowley and maybe beirne.

Then Leo might win a trophy again and we all say he is great

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122267448#Comment_122267448

You already signed the upgrades needed. An offseason drilling that defense, a big THP and you will be good to go next year. I think you just have to really commit to playing the Nienebar style.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122266547#Comment_122266547

Inferior on the day. Leinster's team last year would've smashed Toulouse with the amount of possession they had. Likewise on Sat, that Leinster team is a better 23 than the Bulls, but they played like ****, due to the Bulls imposing their gameplan

pickarooney

At some point, when you keep losing, you have to realise you're not the better team. Bulls into their 2nd final in 3 years at Leinster's expense, beating them home and away by simply being and playing better.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122267314#Comment_122267314

Hansen and Keenan are unavailable, Aki is fair enough.

jonok28

Leinster have looked disjointed all season and it is crystal clear to see why.

1. Teams have figured out how to play and disrupt Andrew Goodman's attacking system. Other teams rush defense has stepped up and that slows Leinster from getting ball out wide. It's the downside of being one of the best teams, other teams will spend a large amount of time how to break you down and beat you.
2. Leinster have been criminally slow to the breakdown in the 22 this season. Opposing players have been able to get over the ball and turn it over. The good teams are doing this at will. Leinster are getting into the 22 at a fairly high rate but their conversion rate is so low when it comes to bagging tries against quality teams.
3. Nienaber came in late so Leinster when it comes to their defensive structure have been playing catch up all season long.
4. Since Lancaster left, Leinster seem to not pay attention to the little things as much. Attention to detail in many aspects of their game seems to be lacking.
5. It can't be understated how important it is to have a consistent fly half week in and week out. Harry, Ross, Sam, and Ciaran all play very different styles of rugby. With Leinster chopping and changing at 10 so much, it is difficult for Leinster as a whole to get motoring because with Ross you have him sitting deep game managing and playing percentage rugby, with Ciaran and Harry you have them much closer to the line and a bit more abrasive ball carriers, with Sam you have much more free wheeling, almost Finn Russell-esque off the cuff rugby. Next season the pecking order needs to be established for the continuity of the team as a whole.
6. The fall off of Luke McGrath this season really can't be understated enough. Leinster need a quality scrum half off the bench. JGP can't play 80 minutes every single big game. In the big games this season, Leinster might as well have just 7-1 or brought in an extra winger or centre because he was at times a hinderance. Here is hoping that Gunne, Coffey or Foley make a jump next year because this cannot fly next year.

Leinster should be different animal next year:

Tyler Bleyendaal should bring a lot more cutting edge to the Leinster attack. More trick plays, more aggressive and more unpredictable.

Nienaber will be able to fully bed in his defensive philosophy.

RG Snyman, Jordie Barrett and potentially Rabah Slimani will be huge for Leinster next season, especially towards the business end of the season after Christmas.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268625#Comment_122268625

I keep hearing this comment about Nienaber only arriving late, but IMO this is not relevant. The defensive system Leinster play is the Nienaber system, the issue is not unfamiliarity with the system, the issue is the system itself.

It is impossible to rush out and not leave gaps, particularly when the opposition forwards are forcing you to put bodies into rucks, it doesn't matter if Leinster spent every single day from now until August doing nothing but defensive drills with Nienaber, that issue cannot be fixed.

A team that can get parity in the pack and has a good kicking game will destroy this defensive system. Willie LeRoux tortured Leinster on Saturday, it's not a coincidence that someone really familiar with Nienaber's system knew exactly what to do to pick it apart.

Leinster really only have 2 options here. Either they get rid of Nienaber and therefore change the system, which is unlikely, or they accept that their defensive system has vulnerabilities and try to mitigate this with other measures (like not gifting possession back to teams like the Bulls).

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268660#Comment_122268660

 it doesn't matter if Leinster spent every single day from now until August doing nothing but defensive drills with Nienaber, that issue cannot be fixed.

Given our attack and handling, one sometimes gets the impression that that is all they have been doing…

jonok28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268660#Comment_122268660

The reason why Leinster are kicking the ball so much and giving teams like the Bulls the opportunity to kick behind and exploit is due to their inability to make anything significant happen in attack. You box kick and kick back when you can't see a decent platform to attack.

Leinster next season will be playing much more front footed rugby. Yes there will be occasions when teams exploit Leinster and kick in behind them but Leinster will be much more the aggressors next season and I can see the attack being much more potent which means they should have.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268660#Comment_122268660

I'd be for Nienaber been removed. In reality his role needs to be severely curtailed.

Qs - Was this blitz defence this 'blitzy' when he was at Munster?

It works with Kolbe & K-L Arendse. It cant work here.

Still maintain Irfu were fools for allowing the Erasmus back into Irish rugby and idiotic for sanctioning RGS to Leinster.

Leinster and Leo need a major reset (AND TODAY) with Bleyendaal/Prendergast at the forefront

I'm not confident that will happen.

https://www.munsterrugby.ie/preview/munster-named-for-ospreys-trip/

Exclamation Marc

For me the infuriating thing was not necessarily the defence itself but the complete inability to do anything or change tact when we were clearly being ripped apart by a team who figured out how to combat it.

No defensive system is impenetrable and we're going to come up against teams that can get in behind us no matter what we do. After a couple of kicks behind, it was clear to everyone on Saturday when LeRoux got the ball what was happening next - yet, the defence didn't adapt and it happened over and over.

There were parallels to the Toulouse game - just keep doing something over and over when it clearly wasn't working.

Dubinusa

I think JN has got to adapt the defense to the quality of the defenders. He does not have fast backliners and his plans work with S A, due to top level speed in the backs.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122267448#Comment_122267448

We are looking for marginal improvements in key areas. 

They're not successfully making them though are they? At least not yet.

sydthebeat

margin improvements in areas we've gone backwards by a rate of knots though…..

Clo-Clo

Not going to hold out much hope for this signing

Fun fact - despite Glasgow Warriors only playing at Thomond Park 5 times in the last decade, Glasgow second row, Scott Cummings (292), has played more minutes at that venue than current Munster lock, RG Snyman (279).

https://x.com/topofthemoonGW/status/1802327944523592143?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1802327944523592143%7Ctwgr%5Eb983393bdfcec0546e8825ef138d2dbcdb0f296b%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.benchwarmers.ie%2Frg-snyman-munster-rugby-union-urc%2F274542%2F

awec

I'm not sure I buy the marginal improvements thing either, but I'm an outside looking in so my opinion doesn't really matter (though I'm going to give it anyway! 😁). I think there are real concerns on the horizon for Leinster, the Nienaber / coaching issue is one side of it but I also think there's a more fundamental problem brewing.

If we look at it, Leinster have lost 3 euro finals on the trot, 4 since they last won one. They have lost 3 league semi finals on the spin. Every single one of these defeats leaves a mental scar on a player, I don't care what anyone says, the players are not robots and there is only so many times the "we go again" thing will really work.

At some point, these defeats will take their toll on players, and they will start to doubt their own ability, they'll start to doubt their quality as a team. When this happens, performances naturally drop. Players will make bad decisions. Players will not buy fully into their coaching as they'll be questioning whether or not it's correct.

The LAR final in Dublin I think was the worst of the lot, I think that really hurt the players. And I think as a result they went balls-to-the-wall this year to beat LAR to try and get that one off their back. To then get done by Toulouse, a team they've beaten numerous times in recent years, is a complete boot in the balls. It's like someone being knocked to the ground, and then as they're trying to get back on their feet someone else comes over and pushes them over again.

What do Leinster do next year then, put everything into trying to beat Toulouse?

But on the subject of the LAR game this year, is this result the exception that is masking what is otherwise a concerning downward trend? There have been so many chinks in Leinster's armour this year that I don't think existed in previous seasons. Northampton very nearly caught you out in the semi final. Ulster beat you twice in the regular season. Even the win against a very injury depleted Ulster last week, there were issues on show there. You made hard work of beating Sale's B team, Leinster of old would have had that game done by half time. I think everyone knows what happened on Saturday so don't need to go into detail there.

I am not convinced that this Leinster team is still on an upward trajectory, which is why I wouldn't be fully bought into the "marginal improvements" thing.

I also think that after this season, some of the aura around Leinster is gone, and more teams will fancy having a proper rattle at them. In the past, we've seen teams accept defeat before a ball is kicked, and as a result we've seen some joke selections being sent to Dublin (in both competitions). I'm not sure we'll see that as much any more.

All in all to say, I think getting to the final next year will take a monumental effort. Probably harder than the past 3 seasons. 4 finals in a row after 3 defeats will take serious mental fortitude and I do wonder how Leinster will react if they hit difficulties earlier in the campaign.

And potentially there is an argument to be made that Leinster need to refocus on the league, if for no other reason than to remember what it feels like to win something again.

Utah_Saint

"…And potentially there is an argument to be made that Leinster need to refocus on the league, if for no other reason than to remember what it feels like to win something again…."

Yes - I think this is fair to say. Leinster still have one of the best, if not the best 1st choice packs in Europe. I think Leinster fall down in the backs. And i think this applies to nearly all provinces. Bar Keenan who would LAR, Toulouse or Northampton take if offered?

After Leinster beat us in the quarters i said you wouldn't beat the Bulls. I could see how Leinster huffed and puffed against a poor, injury depleted Ulster side.

Us Ulster fans loved to try and solve other teams problems so we don't have to face our own….