Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405046#Comment_121405046

Snyman is one of the very highest paid players in Irish rugby, or at least he was certainly on his first contract.

He's one of (possibly the only one now?) who's salary is allegedly funded (partially or fully?) by that outside group.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404561#Comment_121404561

We have quality back line players in the academy. Unless we can peel off Penaud or Kolbe I'd stand pat.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404246#Comment_121404246

I suppose saying you've come within inches of winning the last 2 is one way of looking at it, the other way is that since you last won it you've been in the final 3 times and fallen short in all 3.

Both times against La Rochelle their big players, particularly their pack, were able to wear Leinster down. Last year Ryan went off relatively early and Jenkins came on. The year before you had Ross Moloney starting. I think it's a valid argument that Leinster are missing a monster in the pack.

The final score last year didn't really reflect just how dominant La Rochelle were after half time, Leinster just couldn't get out of their half. When La Rochelle got going they were bouncing tacklers off, Leinster were having to double or triple up to make tackles.

To look at it another way, if you took the Leinster 23 and replaced Jenkins or Moloney with Skelton Leinster would probably have 6 stars right now. Yea, McCarthy is big, but you're still stuck with either Moloney or Jenkins on the bench, neither of which offer very much at that sort of level.

If it's a repeat final this year I'd probably back La Rochelle to do the job again, and probably in the exact same manner again.

Dubinusa

With La Rochelle up in a couple of weeks I reckon we will get a good look at where the squad is. This match for me is the one I've been waiting for. This weekend does not compare, imo. A victory in France would be a massive confidence booster.

jonok28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405117#Comment_121405117

I think Molony is an excellent URC option, I just think the back end of the Champions cup and international stage are slightly beyond his capabilities. Having him as a 4th lock is an embarrassment of riches as he is still a good player. Ryan Baird seems to be settling in to being a flanker/lock hybrid and maybe that is enough for Leinster to not spend money on a lock but I'd be surprised if Leinster didn't bring in another veteran player to add much needed experience to a relatively young group of locks. Molony is the elder statesman at 29!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405177#Comment_121405177

How dominant were they really?

They didn't have many incursions to the Leinster 22, and had to wait till the 77th minute to get the try that put them ahead. They were less dominant during that spell than Leinster were in the opening 25 mins or so of the game (up until Ryan left).

A really key feature of how that game was refereed was how Peyper was not giving penalties to players who got on the ball in a jackal. Leinster had three in the second half all of which should have been given. Instead they turned the ball over (after a significant delay and the La Rochelle defence was reset), and then they kicked hurriedly to touch under pressure, and LAR had the put in. If any of those were whistled as the penalties they rightly were, then Leinster kick to touch under no pressure and have the put in to the lineout to actually have an opportunity to apply some pressure themselves.

Leinster's inability to get out of their own half was purely down to bad execution by the Leinster backs really. Admittedly some of that is under pressure, but still.

Obviously your core point is right - Leinster could have gone out and signed a second row who would have been an improvement on Ross Molony for example, and given how tight the margin was both years, it's very reasonable to assume that would have gotten them over the line.

But if you're trying to sell the business case for it to Irish Rugby for two high quality NIQs, then I think the response would still be that Leinster were absolutely good enough to win in each of the last two seasons, and it's not strictly required. Especially not if McCarthy keeps progressing like they believe he can.

RichieRich_89

Speaking of signings, Shaun Stevenson is someone I'd be keeping an eye on. He's a quality operator. He's signed up to 2025 with NZ rugby. It could fit, depending on how a few things go:

• How much longer does Lowe have left at the top level
• Is Tommy O'Brien going to continue to miss as much time as he has with injury
• How quickly and well Aitzol Arenzana-King and Andrew Osborne develop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405194#Comment_121405194

It will and it won't.

It would be great to go over there and get a win (especially as I'm going to it 😊), and it would be a shot of confidence into the squad, it still won't tell you a lot about what a game will be like if we meet them in May.

They're 8th in the Top14 at present after 7 rounds, having lost 4 games. Their wins came against Lyon (12th), Bayonne (9th) and Bordeaux (10th), but they've lost to some relatively poor sides too like Montpellier (14th) (Montpellier's only win) and Oyonnax (11th).

Their form is objectively poor at this point, and they've given Greg Aldritt the next few weeks off till January.

jonok28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405177#Comment_121405177

Exactly! a very minor lack of depth in two positions (Lock and TH Prop) for me is the difference between winners and runners up. I'm not saying spent 500k + to land these players, I'm simply saying find a impactful lock and TH (Within Leinster and the IRFU's budget) who elevate the positions and give Leinster a bit more heft and bulk in the pack. I think if they do that, it would make a massive difference.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405335#Comment_121405335

They were completely dominant. It was probably one of the most pulverising performances I've ever seen put in against Leinster, certainly the "modern" Leinster. Even at the line out Leinster were afraid to put men into the air. Peyper had nothing to do with it either.

It was to Leinster's credit they only lost by 1 but La Rochelle turned around a 17 point lead and they did it by blowing Leinster away physically.

I don't think Leinster necessarily need two NIQs, but I think Leinster do need a NIQ monster added to the pack. You don't have a big unit up front who really scares the opposition. Your back row is more technical and athletic players as opposed to sheer brutes.

RichieRich_89

What's the best way for a lock coming off the bench to influence a big game? Probably by having physical presence and picking off a few opposition line-outs?

Molony is good at getting steals in the line-out. Can the new coaching team get him to have the presence to influence a game of the magnitude of the last European Final?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405481#Comment_121405481

They really weren't. They huffed and puffed a lot, but for all your talk of "completely dominant" they kicked two penalties and scored a close in try from a prop in the dying minutes.

Leinster then worked their way down the field, declined a relatively difficult kick at goal which could have potentially put them back in front, and were pounding on the LAR line right at the end but for a moment of utter stupidity from Michael Ala'alatoa.

You can't just ignore the period where Leinster were equally utterly dominant against them or write it off as an aberration. I 100% believe if James Ryan doesn't leave that game injured then Leinster win it.

They lost that game for a variety of factors: (i) some absolutely awful kicking exits and lack of control from both half backs, and James Lowe in particular, (ii) an absolute refusal from Jaco Peyper to award clear and obvious penalties to Dan Sheehan (on Danty in the 51st minute), Porter (56th minute) or Henshaw (62nd minute) as three examples. After two of these, Leinster skewed exit kicks out on the full, handing La Rochelle easy and cheap territory. (iii) Declining the option of the shot at goal after Danty's high tackle, although admittedly it was a tough penalty, (iv) JGP having an utter brainfart and not steering the team towards a DG when they had extended possesion in the LAR 22 in the closing minutes, (v) Peyper's utter refusal to award a penalty for a literal multitude of LAR indiscretions on their own line in those closing minutes, (vi) Ala'alatoa's silly and unnecessary high shot on the clear out, which earned him a red and LAR a penalty, ending the game.

Yeah, of course they'd have been better off if we'd had a real powerful tight head lock coming in instead of Jason Jenkins, or if Ryan had never left, but you can't ignore the fact that they easily, easily could and probably should have won the game.

RichieRich_89

Playing most of the biggest game of the season with a second row pairing of Molony and Jenkins is... not ideal. A Ryan and McCarthy pairing would be massively more influential.

Ciaran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121401431#Comment_121401431

There was some issue with my account. The ticket office refreshed it or something and the option appeared then. Thumbs up to Leinster for the quick support.

The moving options are rubbish though, only corners and front of the South Lower. I wish they'd allow us to move tickets to the South Upper.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404868#Comment_121404868

Of course not. Which is why we need good quality backup- but we are talking the likes of Van Der Merwe at prop back in the day. A level I would be more than happy with. Not sure who that would correspond to in lock terms but definitely not etzebeth or DeJager.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405177#Comment_121405177

Leinster couldn't get out of their half because they became God awful at clearing the ball. They were repeatedly turning over LAR in possession - they had 5/6? Failed mauls - and then just absolutely screwing up the easy bit.

jonok28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405503#Comment_121405503

The best way a lock can impact a game coming off the bench is to steal lineouts, add additional bulk and strength to the scrum as well as being an abrasive runner of the ball grounding down tiring opponents and creating line breaks for themselves and their teammates. Molony is capable of stealing line outs and making the occasional line break but bringing in a stout lock with heft to him would make a sizeable difference.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405722#Comment_121405722

Leinster spent the entire second half defending, making tackle after tackle. They were messing up kicks due to the sheer pressure they were absorbing.

The fact that La Rochelle only scored 1 try from it doesn't diminish the fact that Leinster were physically overpowered, it s a compliment to Leinster's defensive work. But La Rochelle were dominant in the scrum and dominant in the line out. In open play, the signs started to appear in the later stages of the first half, when La Rochelle put a few phases together they were causing serious problems for Leinster.

Honestly, that second half was as one sided a game I've seen at that level in a long time, and it's to Leinster's credit that La Rochelle's dominance wasn't reflected in the scoreboard.

Leinster were beaten by a team that could take the physicality to a level that Leinster couldn't match, and I think the difference between the teams was literally one players worth. As I said before, I do believe that a big unit in the pack is the difference between 4 stars and 6 for Leinster.

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405722#Comment_121405722

All down to the pressure LAR put on Leinster that day. Players make poor decisions and execution levels dip when you’ve been starved of the ball and haven’t touched it in ages.

In football terms teams would get the runaround from Barcelona at their peak (those Champions League finals against Man Utd spring to mind) and when the opposition finally won the ball back they couldn’t get any rhythm and gave it away cheaply again.

I'm not for a second claiming Ross Molony is an elite or international quality second row, but he's turned in some exceptional performances before at extremely high levels.

In each of the past two seasons, Leinster have completely dominated the French champions Toulouse - 40-17 in 2022 and 41-22 in 2023. Molony was MotM in the 2022 game I think.

That's a Toulouse pack that contains, 2022: Cyril Baille, Julien Marchand, Dorian Aldegheri, Rory Arnold, Manny Meafou, plus a back row of Elstadt, Jelonch and Cros. They also brought beasts like Mauvaka, Thibaud Flament, Joe Tekori and Selevasio Tolofua off the bench, in a 6-2 split.

The 2023 pack was broadly the same but had Jack Willis instead of Rynhardt Elstadt in the starting 8.

That's a massive pack, full of internationals, and a team which have an utterly dominant track record over La Rochelle.

Leinster are really unfortunate in this little bizarre Mexican standoff with Toulouse and La Rochelle where we're the ones who seem to end up trophyless, but I would argue (and the stats would support it) that the greatest dominance of one team over another of the three clashes (Leinster - La Rochelle, Leinster - Toulouse, Toulouse - La Rochelle) is Leinster's dominance over Toulouse (who are arguably the best side of the three), and it's not even close.

So, equally, when people are writing off Leinster or saying the existing team isn't good enough to win European Cups, they have to take that record into consideration.

conquestscarer

Not picking Ngatai was a mistake IMO, him Osborne, and Lowe are the 3 players who have a great exit kicking game IMO, Lowe had an off-day kicking and that's what has consistently not been good enough at the business end of the season. That's why I think we need to fast-track Osborne this year, can never have too many players with a kicking game like he does.

Saying that we need to sign a NIQ Lock off the bench I wouldn't agree with, if that match was being played on this Saturday we would have a completely different lock pairing then the one who played the majority of the game. Molony and Jenkins were basically invisible and our lineout strategy was appalling, how we let Skelton catch a single ball is a disgrace considering he goes up like a log. If you had Ryan Baird at the front going up every time we would have generated atleast a few turnovers. McCarthy will be the big man now and a lock pairing of him and Ryan is more than good enough. I

La Rochelle's biggest weakness is exiting their own half, they struggle to do that and their biggest strength is keeping territory when they're in your own half. Giving up Territory to them by going for posts twice in the second half when we couldn't exit our own half was a mistake. We gave up our biggest strength as a team and gave them territory. I've no idea why we box kick as a team, it worked against Toulouse in the semi but more because they made mistakes under little pressure, I hope we cut that out of our game this season.

As it came out that Goodman did the structured play off set piece which we seemed to score all our points off of, and Lancaster did the unstructured play, it makes me more critical of Lancaster because I thought our unstructured play yielded nothing in that game. Jackman did a good analysis on the chipping over-the-top strategy which would have been effective against the linespeed but we saw none of it. It was like we went into the game and not watched La Rochelle play from our unstructured tactics.

aloooof

I'm with awec on this one. Yes, Leinster's exiting could have been significantly better in that 2nd half but a large part of the reason for the poor kicks was the pressure they were under.

Some of the stats from the game were pretty incredible:

• Between HT and the try being scored in the 73rd minute, Leinster had 16 seconds of ball-in-play time in the LAR half.
• Between the the 47min and the try, the had 1 ruck in the LAR half; no passes, no carries.
• Leinster's starting 11 thru 15 didn't have a single pass in the entire game. 
• LAR made 60m+ from the maul even tho Leinster weren't contesting.

The long and short of it, imo, is that LAR were significantly better at imposing their gameplan on Leinster than the reverse.

AdamD

Some of Leinster's exits were inexcusable and nothing to do with size or power 'pressure'. Players are usually capable of kicking a ball more than 10m regardless of how much they're getting physically outmatched, I wouldn't agree with relating the two.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405941#Comment_121405941

In each of the past two seasons, Leinster have completely dominated the French champions Toulouse - 40-17 in 2022 and 41-22 in 2023. Molony was MotM in the 2022 game I think.

Just for the sake of accuracy, it was Johnny Sexton.

That game in question, iirc, was one week after Munster had brought Toulouse thru 100 minutes with an extremely high ball-in-play time. For whatever reason, Leinster can't seem to generate that high ball-in-play time vs LAR.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405925#Comment_121405925

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with your core contention that if Leinster had a big bruiser in the pack it would be a huge upgrade for them. It remains to be seen if Joe McCarthy can get his game to that level, but I'm hopeful.

I do think La Rochelle's "dominance" is overblown though, and heavily influenced by uncharacteristic Leinster errors (some of which were under absolutely zero pressure, just poorly sliced kicks), and the failure of Peyper to award those penalties for the multiple Leinster turnovers on the deck in that period. It became a vicious circle where Leinster's excellent defence could get literally no reward whatsoever, and no opportunity to exit.

There actually weren't a lot of scrums in the second half, and in reality, it wasn't a source of huge dominance or penalties for La Rochelle (Leinster won a penalty at one of them in the 2H). The lineout and maul absolutely was, but I've made my case for why I think LAR kept getting easy opportunities to go to that.

For all of that - they offered very very little. The fact still remains the second half was 13-3, so calling it "as one sided a game as you've seen at that level in a long time" is borderline nonsensical, when you consider:

-Leinster have put 40 points on Toulouse in each of the last two semis

-La Rochelle put 47 points on Exeter in their semi last season

-The absolute ease with which Saracens and Toulon won a lot of their cups in the mid 2010s. Those were very one-sided finals, and even Leinster's loss to Saracens felt more one-sided (in that we just couldn't seem to fire a shot or get close to them) than either of the last two finals to LAR where I feel like bad individual errors at key moments cost Leinster the games.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121406055#Comment_121406055

You have a point with regards Toulouse but 1) Toulon last won it a decade ago this season and 2) Exeter are nowhere near the team they were when they won the competition 4 years ago; they're nowhere near that top level.

It was an unbelievable game of rugby, and Leinster deserve huge credit for their start and defensive heroics, but by the end it nearly felt like as comfortable a 1 point win as I've seen.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405988#Comment_121405988

Yeah, I'm not denying that - but you both keep refusing to engage with my point about how the breakdown, and specifically jackal turnovers were handled in that game.

It wasn't just against Leinster either - there was a very notable one from Levani Botia in the first half where he was on the ball for an age and eventually got it loose, but 9/10 refs would have blown for the penalty long before then.

In that second half Leinster turned over La Rochelle multiple times - in the 51st minute, the 56th minute, the 62nd minute and the 64th minute. He also gave a penalty (which Hastoy converted) against Doris for what looked to be an absolutely clean turnover, and should have been Doris' penalty.

In all of those scenarios, after an extended ruck, Leinster eventually emerged with the ball. But they were scattered, and players were tired from the defending. The ball was invariably messy (like turnover ball nearly always is), and so Leinster were forced into a hurried clearance.

It's next to impossible to build territory and go through phases when this is how you continually get possession.

If those turnovers were blown as the penalties that I believe the overwhelming majority of referees would blow them as, then Leinster would have had significantly more possession and territory in the LAR half, and the opportunity to put them under pressure like they've shown multiple times they could. In the dying moments, they managed to work an attack again right down to a metre from the LAR line.

Any game where the referee takes that sort of interpretation to the ruck 100% played into the hands of a big, heavy, messy pack like LAR. That was the decisive factor here for me.

You say they were better at imposing their gameplan - because they were utterly facilitated in doing that.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121406121#Comment_121406121

An alternative reading of which is that Leinster didn't adapt to the referees interpretations as well as LAR did.

It's not like it would've been an unknown with Peyper in charge either.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121405503#Comment_121405503

RM is just 17 stone, so he doesn't have the heft to physically impose himself on teams like LAR. I reckon leaving him on last year was a poor choice. Fantastic player but, not going to put in a marker against Skelton.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121406045#Comment_121406045

There have been passages of games where Leinster have made La Rochelle look extremely ordinary as well. I've made my argument above for why Leinster couldn't generate a high ball-in-play time this season against LAR. I believe that to be the most significant factor in that final.

You're citing Munster putting Toulouse through 100 minutes the week before from 2022 as a reason, but Leinster equally played a knock out game, on the road the week before against the English champions, so it's not that big a factor.

It also has nothing to do with Leinster hammering them this season, when they went onto beat La Rochelle in the final. Before the game this past April, Toulouse put out a heavily rotated (virtually fully rotated) team the week before, when they lost to Stade Francais, where they rested Baille, Marchand, Mauvaka, Aldegheri, Arnold, Meafou, Cros, Flament, Dupont, Ntamack, Ramos, Ahki, Lebel etc etc.

So what's the excuse there?