Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617970#Comment_121617970

That's one, relatively disingenuous way, to portray Penny's minutes.

The remaining 61% of his minutes came against other Irish provinces (23% overall, including 160 mins against Munster), in Europe (11% of overall minutes), and against sides like Stormers (80 mins) & Glasgow (80 mins). He also played in the URC QF.

He's also played in 8 of 9 possible URC games this season (starting 5 of those) and has captained the team on multiple occasions.

Podge_irl

I think losing Deegan would have an impact, but he's also essentially a luxury most teams can't afford.

aloooof

For the sake of the thread, I'm gonna leave it at that.

But suffice to say, someone having a different opinion to yours, however much you disagree, doesn't make them "disingenuous"...

sydthebeat

well assuming rhys is gone at the end of the season, Deegans standing in the squad increases again, so his choice to stay around might look a very good one over the next few seasons.

Conan is probably on his last lucrative contract, lets assume its a 2 year one. Deegan, being 4 years younger than him, would be a ready made replacement.

@Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618094#Comment_121618094

I don't think anyone said you were being disingenuous for just having a different opinion - I said the way you portrayed Penny's minutes to be was a bit a selective and disingenuous, and @Quin_Dub said it was a bit disingenuous to claim Deegan and Frawley for example weren't important to Leinster just based on European minutes alone.

European minutes especially haven't been the most important barometer for Leinster in the last couple of seasons, when Leinster have relatively routinely faced teams sending over their B squads.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617970#Comment_121617970

Penny's not going to get ahead of Hodnett or Timoney either.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618119#Comment_121618119

it was a bit disingenuous to claim Deegan and Frawley for example weren't important to Leinster just based on European minutes alone.

But I didn't say that...

pickarooney

You did say you were going to leave it there though, and even you didn't believe that.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618145#Comment_121618145

I didn't expect to be misquoted again so quickly ;)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618133#Comment_121618133

I've no real interest in getting into another tedious edition of back and forth where you're claiming you didn't say something etc.

This post from you:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121615870#Comment_121615870

This post has the clear implication that losing players like Ciaran Frawley, Max Deegan or Scott Penny would not be important (or make an "appreciable difference") to Leinster, and your reasoning in the post is purely based on their European minutes.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618158#Comment_121618158

This post has the clear implication that losing players like Ciaran Frawley, Max Deegan or Scott Penny would not be important (or make an "appreciable difference") to Leinster, and your reasoning in the post is purely based on their European minutes.

...which is a reasonable indicator of their relative importance to Leinster. No?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618177#Comment_121618177

Nope, of course not. Leinster provide the national team with the vast majority of players. These players are important to Ireland, and are managed as such.

The importance to the Leinster squad of those remaining players is measured in league minutes and European pool games, simply because the test players are obviously going to return, in the main, for the business end of the season.

That simple fact alone does not make them deegans and frawleys of this world LESS important to Leinster, but actually MORE important as they are the ones who are generally available to play the most minutes.

I really can't see why you can't grasp this.

Dubinusa

The point is, Leinster get weaker! Munster get vastly stronger, just by offering gametime. A healthy Milne gets into the 23 for Munster. Leinster will probably have to sign Byrne, a lesser player, imo. Frawley makes the Munster 23 also. If he leaves, he backs up Crowley.

I doubt 5 lads leave for Munster. But I expect 5 to leave for other provinces. Munster have signed some NIQ's that haven't helped their own players development, so I suppose poaching is cheaper and more efficient for them. It sucks for Leinster though. For me, Munster don't retain their culture and tribal identity.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618128#Comment_121618128

Not sure either are more talented than Penny (perhaps Hodnett the best of the 3 right now?), but they do have less competition at their clubs.

Must love hardship

Injury update...

James Ryan came through the game against Stade Francais with no issues and will be available for selection this week

 

Harry Byrne picked up an ankle injury at training and will be further assessed this week before a final decision is made on selection

 Ciarán Frawley  picked up a rib injury during the Stade Francis game and will be further assessed this week before a final decision is made on selection

 Michael Milne picked up a calf injury last week and will be unavailable for selection this week

 There are no further updates on: Jimmy O’Brien (neck), Martin Moloney (bicep), Alex Soroka (foot), Charlie Ngatai (calf), Cormac Foley (shoulder), Ross Byrne (arm) and Jamie Osborne (shoulder)

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121618203#Comment_121618203

I dunno, Syd.

I just can't agree that Deegan and Frawley are more important to Leinster than the guys who have the highest minutes in Europe, like Keenan, James Ryan, Porter, Ringrose, VdF, Doris etc.

The reason I say "no appreciable difference" is because Leinster's average and mean winning margin last season must be around 3 scores? I'd still strongly expect Leinster to be top of their pool even without Frawley and Deegan.

sydthebeat

last year Ross Byrne played in 20 games for leinster, total of 1200 minutes.

johnny sexton played 5 games for leinster, totalling 260 minutes.

extreme case but a prime example of the first choice player being appreciably less important than the understudy.

for the craic ive calculated leinsters average winning margin AWAY from home last seasons league (the games these guys play in). i dont count home as some teams send their seconds for cannon fodder.

it was 10 points. 8 away wins in the regular season out of 9 games

definitely not wide enough to suggest the 3rd stringers would still be winning these games.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619056#Comment_121619056

Leinster could probably afford to have lost one or two of those mind you. Losing almost any player is going to have some impact, but it's not unreasonable to note that having an internationally capped 3rd choice no8 could be construed as overkill.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619901#Comment_121619901

What other provinces 3rd choice number 8 played 1050 minutes last season?

Deegan isnt collecting splinters on a bench

sydthebeat

just had a quick look at La Rochelles squad.

they have 3 capped no.8s in Tanga, Cancoriet and Aldritt..... and also have Boudenhent who can step in there easily as well. Thats in a french system with a lot more availability for movement.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619940#Comment_121619940

I'm aware, but he's still definitively our 3rd choice number 8.

Maybe we would play our first 2 choices more if we didn't have the luxury of Deegan behind them, or maybe we would have to rely more on academy lads. We'd probably get by. If we actually were constrained by some kind of salary cap he is one of the first players who would be cut.

I don't think it's unreasonable for fans of other provinces to look at an internationally capped player in Leinster's squad who disappears completely in every major game and think he would be of better use elsewhere. "But he's useful when Ireland's potentially best player and also our backup Lions stating 8 are both unavailable" is going to be an excuse that rings a bit hollow.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121617894#Comment_121617894

This type of comment shows an unsurprising utter lack of self-awareness given the never ending moaning from Munster fanbase about the departure of a single player who was for most of his time at Munster the third choice OH when all players were fit. Where was the appreciable impact of that move to warrant that reaction, that we will all never ever hear the end of if he becomes an even mid-tier level player?

We don't even have to get started on the similar wails of unfairness when a certain NIQ lock moved on, like nearly all NIQ players do.

Maybe take a look at your own provincial thread before going into others and telling fans how they should or shouldn't feel.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620026#Comment_121620026

Indeed!

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620009#Comment_121620009

well do you accept that our internationally capped no 8 and our lions capped no8 are made unavailable to us on a much greater frequency than any other province?

which results in out 3rd choice 8 being both capped and player significant numbers of minutes.

as for ringing 'hollow' to other provinces, personally I couldn't give 2 craps. I do not want my club made weaker to supplement their shortcomings.

i woudlnt be surprised if over 33% of the professional playing population in ireland are already leinster developed.

the fact that these players want to stay at leinster and play league games and not feature in high end EC games, and the NOT force moves to other provinces speaks volumes in my mind.

Dubinusa

Rugby in Ireland is going to lose its shape. A Munster team with a glut of Leinster men playing is not a typical Munster team. Same with Ulster. Ulster using non Ulster players detracts from the derbies, imo.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620009#Comment_121620009

Why would it ring hollow? It would be ok if Deegan chose to leave. That's the breaks. He will still see tons of minutes if he stays. He's going to replace Conan in the future. Conan is getting on. Besides, Munster have massive Prospects available who will be brilliant players.

pickarooney

Conan's only 31. Culhane will be coming into peak form by the time Jack retires.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620026#Comment_121620026

The extent to which I've "told fans how they should or shouldn't feel" is as follows:

I absolutely understand why Leinster fans are aggrieved when it happens

I've little interest in debating the other points with you when it's clear you'd rather have a go at me than discuss the points in question.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620106#Comment_121620106

Fwiw, I'm absolutely not suggesting Deegan should move to Munster. I don't think it would be a good fit given the players there, as you mention. But Frawley could be a good fit.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620466#Comment_121620466

So Frawley can go from not being in the first 15 at Leinster to not being in the first 15 at Munster?