Almost all young women in the UK have been sexually harassed [MOD WARNING 1st POST]

nullzero

meeeeh wrote: »

I run so I often come behind people. I always cough or say hello when I'm about 10, 20 metres away. I'm a woman but I could still scare someone barging past without alerting them first. I consider it basic curtesy.

That's a different scenario to walking. If you run into someone you could injure them, apples and oranges.

blanch152

Martina1991 wrote: »

Cross the road. Make your presence known by a cough or hello so they know you're trying to get by.

Looking over your shoulder to see a man quietly gaining pace behind you is intimidating.

I think you are taking this a bit far. A man out speed-walking for fitness purposes can't be expected to stop just because a woman might feel intimidated by him quietly gaining pace behind her.

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I take it you've never been to Coppers then? That's literally how I met my first girlfriend, and she was the one who approached me, not vice versa. She told me she thought I was hot (her words, not mine ) and sat down beside me.

If that is now considered weird, honestly, as a society we're f*cked. And that's exactly what I've been trying to get at with my posts.

Been there way too many times unfortunately, but got a bit old for it about 15 years ago. People went in half blue when I was going

Coppers is the last place in the world I would look for a boyfriend. If you're talking about sexual approaches, then that's the right place!

Danny Garcia

Danny Garcia wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what is the appropriate way, in people's opinion here, to approach someone you find attractive? Genuinely curious what people think.

Same way you always do I would imagine.
If a woman isn't interested, I'm sure you know, right?

meeeeh

nullzero wrote: »

That's a different scenario to walking. If you run into someone you could injure them, apples and oranges.

Then don't do it. I suggested what works for me perfectly fine getting past people without giving them a heart attack. Apparently that's not good enough because I'm running and not walking. You don't want solutions you just want to whinge how unfair and impossible it is for you and no solution will ever be good enough.

nullzero

meeeeh wrote: »

Then don't do it. I suggested what works for me perfectly fine getting past people without giving them a heart attack. Apparently that's not good enough because I'm running and not walking. You don't want solutions you just want to whinge how unfair and impossible it is for you and no solution will ever be good enough.

Christ alive, everything is a call to arms with you isn't it?

All I was saying is that the logic of announcing your presence whilst running past a person (where a collision may be possible resulting in injury) makes sense whilst the notion of a man walking behind a woman saying hello and keeping well back from her is a ridiculous idea.

You need to calm down and take a breath before taking offence to absolutely everything.

Danny Garcia

Danny Garcia wrote: »

I find out after I approach, if they seem disinterested I wish them well, and walk off. But I'm curious to hear opinions of other people here.

That's all you need.

tayto lover

All this talk is so confusing.
I took a taxi home last summer when wearing shorts. The woman taxi driver told me I had great legs for a man. I laughed and didn’t take offense. Why would I as I thought it was funny.
If a male taxi driver said that to a female after this week he could end up in court and probably lose his licence.
Strange times indeed.

Baggly

Mod

Folks can we cut out the strawman arguments please. Discuss the posts on the thread and stop putting words in others mouths. Thanks.

Martina1991

nullzero wrote: »

Saying hello to a woman you don't know could be seen as creepy.

Who said anything about slowly gaining pace?

Crossing the road may not be an option, a man could be putting himself in danger of being hit by a vehicle for the sake of not upsetting a woman walking in front of him.

Are we assuming that the woman walking and the man walking behind her are the only two people present on this imaginary stretch of road? Or are we talking about any setting regardless of how busy the area is?

I'm starting to think I should just stay home in case I offend a woman by virtue of being male.

You're making a strawman argument taking it to the nth degree.

People out walking casually say hello to each other. This is no different.

My point was say something, anything to let someone know you're coming up behind them.

Forget the hello. How about say excuse me.

jackboy wrote: »

Surely saying hello to them would be creepy and cause more fear.

Say excuse me then. I'm not saying to start a conversation with them.

blanch152 wrote: »

I think you are taking this a bit far. A man out speed-walking for fitness purposes can't be expected to stop just because a woman might feel intimidated by him quietly gaining pace behind her.

I imagine a man speed walking would be wearing runners and athletic gear. A plain clothed man speed walking or jogging up behind you is a different situation.

soiseztomabel

meeeeh wrote: »

Then don't do it. I suggested what works for me perfectly fine getting past people without giving them a heart attack. Apparently that's not good enough because I'm running and not walking. You don't want solutions you just want to whinge how unfair and impossible it is for you and no solution will ever be good enough.

Run passed as normal, whoever you’re passing will hear your footsteps. Announcing you presence if you’re briefly running by someone is crazy.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

All this talk is so confusing.
I took a taxi home last summer when wearing shorts. The woman taxi driver told me I had great legs for a man. I laughed and didn’t take offense. Why would I as I thought it was funny.
If a male taxi driver said that to a female after this week he could end up in court and probably lose his licence.
Strange times indeed.

You're a grown man, I'm assuming well able to take care of yourself. Presumably that woman didnt freak you out or scare you.
What if it was a male taxi driver, and a 20 something female. On her own in his cab. What if she was your daughter? I
I'm a grown woman and if a taxi driver said something about my legs I would be extremely uncomfortable
Sorry, but all situations are not the same.

tayto lover

Danny Garcia wrote: »

In fairness that is inappropriate for someone who's working to say.

Maybe but I couldn’t really blame her 😂😂

nullzero

Martina1991 wrote: »

You're making a strawman argument taking it to the nth degree.

People out walking casually say hello to each other. This is no different.

My point was say something, anything to let someone know you're coming up behind them.

Forget the hello. How about say excuse me.


Say excuse me then. I'm not saying to start a conversation with them.



I imagine a man speed walking would be wearing runners and athletic gear. A plain clothed man speed walking or jogging up behind you is a different situation.

The hello wasn't the only issue I was tackling. Although saying anything to a person who is likely to be intimidated by a stranger speaking to them, including excuse me may be considered an act of harassment.

You also stated men should always cross the road when walking behind a woman.

I'm not creating strawmen, I'm just examining the logic of your statements.

tayto lover

bubblypop wrote: »

You're a grown man, I'm assuming well able to take care of yourself. Presumably that woman didnt freak you out or scare you.
What if it was a male taxi driver, and a 20 something female. On her own in his cab. What if she was your daughter? I
I'm a grown woman and if a taxi driver said something about my legs I would be extremely uncomfortable
Sorry, but all situations are not the same.

That was my point.
All situations are not the same.
And not all remarks should or are harmful.

meeeeh

nullzero wrote: »

Christ alive, everything is a call to arms with you isn't it?

All I was saying is that the logic of announcing your presence whilst running past a person (where a collision may be possible resulting in injury) makes sense whilst the notion of a man walking behind a woman saying hello and keeping well back from her is a ridiculous idea.

You need to calm down and take a breath before taking offence to absolutely everything.

You claimed that you have to hold back if you are in a hurry. My point was that all you heed to do is flag that you are going pass. A quick excuse me I'm in a hurry and getting past them quickly should do. However only a complete idiot (regardless of gender) would walk behind someone fast (faster than them) without actually overtaking them. It's passive aggressive stuff that makes people in front of you uncomfortable.

Martina1991

nullzero wrote: »

The hello wasn't the only issue I was tackling. Although saying anything to a person who is likely to be intimidated by a stranger speaking to them, including excuse me may be considered an act of harassment.

You also stated men should always cross the road when walking behind a woman.

I'm not creating strawmen, I'm just examining the logic of your statements.

No I did not.

I made suggestions as to what someone could do to avoid appearing intimidating when coming up behind a woman on their own.

The scenarios I'm talking about in particular is in darkness and when streets are quiet.

All I was trying to do is make people realise that some women can feel afraid when someone is quickly coming up behind them when they may be vulnerable.

meeeeh

Martina1991 wrote: »

No I did not.

I made suggestions as to what someone could do to avoid appearing intimidating when coming up behind a woman on their own.

The scenarios I'm talking about in particular is in darkness and when streets are quiet.

All I was trying to do is make people realise that some women can feel afraid when someone is quickly coming up behind them when they may be vulnerable.

Most people regardless of gender uncomfortable if you are approaching them at faster speed in the dark. You either have to hold back to increase the distance between person ahead and yourself, cross the road if needed or explain to them somehow that you are going ahead.

I'd assume it's just basic courtesy not to close the gap if you don't intend to overtake.

Martina1991

meeeeh wrote: »

Most people regardless of gender uncomfortable if you are approaching them at faster speed in the dark. You either have to hold back to increase the distance between person ahead and yourself, cross the road if needed or explain to them somehow that you are going ahead.

I'd assume it's just basic courtesy not to close the gap if you don't intend to overtake.

In my post I also listed suggestions of looking out for women and teaching both young men and women about the harassment that's out there, but this was the point that was isolated, misinterpreted and exaggerated.

nullzero

Martina1991 wrote: »

No I did not.

I made suggestions as to what someone could do to avoid appearing intimidating when coming up behind a woman on their own.

The scenarios I'm talking about in particular is in darkness and when streets are quiet.

All I was trying to do is make people realise that some women can feel afraid when someone is quickly coming up behind them when they may be vulnerable.

That's fine,you're entitled to your opinion.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to announce themselves to someone walking in front of them or cross the road away from them in the off chance they might feel anxious about having someone walk past them.

You also never qualified the scenario of darkness or quiet streets.

You said cross the road, are men so awful that they need to cross the road any time they're walking behind a woman?

I had women I worked with in the past run up behind me and squeeze and/or pinch my backside. I didn't appreciate it, but do I expect all women to behave that way? Should I feel aggrieved if a woman walking behind me doesn't cross the road?

The fact is, the man who will attack a woman in those scenarios is the outlier and no amount of suggested actions for decent men will ever change them or their actions.

nullzero

Martina1991 wrote: »

In my post I also listed suggestions of looking out for women and teaching both young men and women about the harassment that's out there, but this was the point that was isolated, misinterpreted and exaggerated.

How is talking about the exact things you said misinterpretation or exaggeration?

Several posters stated that a man announcing himself to a woman in that scenario may very well have the opposite effect to what your suggestion intended.

Also crossing the road was an instruction you gave, which isn't reasonable either.

For the record the rest of your original post made sense, my apologies for not outlining that initially, but the statements I and others took issue with were outlandish and deserved to be discussed in isolation.

As a man I feel announcing myself as you suggested could be the wrong thing to do. I also feel crossing the road isn't reasonable as it may not be safe of practical to do so.

I'm happy to park it now. We obviously have a difference of opinion on it and it isn't reconcilable.

Martina1991

Fine. Dont do it then. It was only suggestion in a list of others.

I was only trying to come up with suggestions to alleviate some of the every day instances where women may feel vulnerable on their own.

I've said my piece on this thread. This is very much an issue in my life as it is for many others. Please be compassionate even if you dont believe this is a big issue to you.

I'm going to leave ye to it.

Topics seems to going around in circles

Take care.

FunLover18

tayto lover wrote: »

That was my point.
All situations are not the same.
And not all remarks should or are harmful.

Yes but who gets to decide? Not advocating all remarks should be deemed harmful because one woman finds it so but neither am I saying we should undermine that woman's experience or feelings because no harm was intended. In an ideal world the offended party should be able to say "I'm sorry I don't appreciate comments like that" and the person who made the comment should apologise and both parties move on. But instead we have a situation where women are afraid to speak up.

There seems to be a completely unjustified notion that men suddenly aren't or won't be allowed talk to women and it's just fear mongering, if you're a half decent person who knows how to treat people with respect and hold a conversation, you'll be grand.

BlueJay424

Trying to take posters comments with a pinch of salt & remind myself that people can't possibly understand exactly how it feels in certain situations when you haven't been in them or have a different experience of them as a different gender/size. Not trying to belittle anyone but my God it's tough to read opinions in this thread all the same. I'd encourage people to ask the women/girls in their life about their own experiences and see if you still have the same opinion after, if you think it doesn't happen often etc.

Some posters are mentioning that sexual harassment from males is just their way of trying it on with the opposite sex & not knowing how to do it properly. God. I get that the article/survey was misleading in to what constitutes as sexual harassment but I feel like that's quite condescending to the people who have been harassed (men & women). A lot of the harassment is intimidating, forceful, sore, demeaning, frightening, a power move etc. It can be a game to the person doing it, showing off to their friends or because they can. It can also end very badly for the person being harassed. It's not just a 'oh I brushed her arm to get her attention and now she thinks I harassed her'. No-one is blaming all men here, I know it's hard for guys to make the first move but this doesn't have to do with accidentally saying the wrong thing to someone when trying to get their attention.

tayto lover wrote: »

All this talk is so confusing.
I took a taxi home last summer when wearing shorts. The woman taxi driver told me I had great legs for a man. I laughed and didn’t take offense. Why would I as I thought it was funny.
If a male taxi driver said that to a female after this week he could end up in court and probably lose his licence.
Strange times indeed.

Huge difference. I could get in to a taxi and a driver could say that I had great legs for a woman, I wouldn't consider this harassment at all. However, this driver could mean it in a sexual way, they could try to touch me, lock the doors, take they wrong route, go in the wrong direction, stop the car, say other inappropriate sexual things etc, I would see that in a different way. I've had awful taxi experiences and although they could have been worse I'm weary in taxis now, as are many women. I don't think that experience you had made you weary of all taxi drivers.

I think it's hard for people to imagine if they haven't experienced the same things in the same ways. I doubt you would have found it funny if the woman (or man) meant it sexually, had wanted to act on it/tried to act on it/was bigger than you or it was your third time that week dealing with it. You can't understand how it feels because you haven't experienced it like that (not trying to be harsh or condescending just honest). I think your comment is dismissing people's experiences saying a different thing would happen if the gender roles were reversed in your situation. People are well aware of what harassment entails & what is harassment and what isn't. I think the majority of women wouldn't consider your scenario harassment. But they might have had their own dodgy experiences in other situations so may not take too kindly to unwanted comments on their appearance which I understand. An unwanted comment can sometimes lead to more.

There were comments earlier talking about if there was survey of guys & how many of them had felt threatened that that number would be high as well. I'm not disputing that at all. This thread is about the amount of young women in the UK that have been harassed & I posted earlier in the thread to highlight the prevalence of these experiences for women in Ireland because people were questioning whether that was possible. Maybe it's not 97% but it is high.

I think a lot of posters want to turn this in to a men versus women debate. There were jokes about how women could possibly survive during these times. I know that everyone should be careful in lots of situations especially when out walking in the dark as mentioned but I do think that harassment happens much more frequently to women (especially in bars/clubs) and that the effects can stay with us afterwards because of the level of threat/violence and the chance of it happening again.

Not a woe is me tale from all women, fully understand that men are victims of sexual harassment too and of course that could stay with them also, but I do think there's a huge difference in what both genders experience and that both sides could learn a lot if we listened to each others experiences.

katiek102010

I have been a victim of sexual assault but seriously this has to stop.

A year ago all white people are racists

All cops are racist murderers

Now all men are rapists and need to be locked up by 6pm

Ffs it has to stop

How about declaring war on scumbags and crime, teach people to respect others.

Stateofyou

katiek102010 wrote: »

I have been a victim of sexual assault but seriously this has to stop.

A year ago all white people are racists

All cops are racist murderers

Now all men are rapists and need to be locked up by 6pm

Ffs it has to stop

How about declaring war on scumbags and crime, teach people to respect others.

I'm reminded of when people sometimes say "I have a racist friend so I can't be racist." :rolleyes:

Why are you resorting to hyperbole to make a point?

deezell

So following the most recent murder in London, where the prime suspect was arrested and charged in record time, you would expect to feel good at least about the efficiency of the forces of law and order. But no, the suspect is not the guilty one at all, it's all men, especially those who were appalled by the likes of the Gillette anti man ad in the wake of the me two movement.
Well, here we go again. Read this sh1te;
"The role of young masculinities in men's violence against women"

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2021/0316/1204312-young-men-masculinities-violence-against-women/

It's your kid's fault. You know, that teenage boy up in the room with his playstation, or chatting nervously with a mixed group of friends, hoping a particular girl might smile at him. It's his fault. For being a boy. And having these million year old instinctive feelings. Instead of embracing them, he should feel guilty, self loathing and shame. In fact, he should just sanction himself. Its what the hate filled core of these movements really want.

Apoapsis Rex

Men also have been destroying ancient Ireland...

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/from-ringfort-to-ring-road-the-destruction-of-ireland-s-fairy-forts-1.4496069?mode=amp

"The title of Lowes’ article in Village magazine was The Men Who Eat Ringforts, in recognition of the fact that these farmers (and developers and engineers) are invariably male. The title has been adopted for a volume of book art, Men Who Eat Ringforts, published by the conceptual artists Sean Lynch and Michele Horrigan of Askeaton Contemporary Arts. It’s a large-format book designed by Daly+Lyon, with thought-provoking essays by Sinéad Mercier and Michael Holly exploring the determined desecration of our ancient past."

Fred Cryton

Feminists view the world through the prism of Marxist inspired group think along gender, racial and class lines, they immediate ascribe group blame to specific incidents by a member of that group. They want all men to take some blame if one man commits a rape. Sorry ladies, not going to happen in a million years.

The enlightenment values which underpin the West were founded on the idea of respect for the individual. The individual is the sovereign entity, not the group. Let's find the man who committed the crime and jail him. Really seems to me that women and young women in particular need to study up and understand the values that made the West great in the first place. And perhaps vote for political parties which put value on law and order, instead of some imaginary "social justice".

However it is notable they do not apply this group-think equally. If a member of a minority religious community gropes a woman, they will be the first to defend the group in a stunning act of hypocrisy.

francois

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Feminists view the world through the prism of Marxist inspired group think along gender, racial and class lines, they immediate ascribe group blame to specific incidents by a member of that group. They want all men to take some blame if one man commits a rape. Sorry ladies, not going to happen in a million years.

The enlightenment values which underpin the West were founded on the idea of respect for the individual. The individual is the sovereign entity, not the group. Let's find the man who committed the crime and jail him. Really seems to me that women and young women in particular need to study up and understand the values that made the West great in the first place. And perhaps vote for political parties which put value on law and order, instead of some imaginary "social justice".

However it is notable they do not apply this group-think equally. If a member of a minority religious community gropes a woman, they will be the first to defend the group in a stunning act of hypocrisy.

Ridiculous generalisations relying on outdated clichés

ancapailldorcha

If I was going to point a finger at a movement for having a hate-filled core, it'd be the brigade who constantly try to shutdown and derail conversations about women's rights and safety every time the subject is brought up. It's literally the only time you ever hear anything about men's rights. All that really is is a stick to beat feminists with.

MoonUnit75

The Christian church should sue for breach of copyright over the appropriation of 'original sin'.

Fred Cryton

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If I was going to point a finger at a movement for having a hate-filled core, it'd be the brigade who constantly try to shutdown and derail conversations about women's rights and safety every time the subject is brought up. It's literally the only time you ever hear anything about men's rights. All that really is is a stick to beat feminists with.

Statistically men in the UK make up 75% of victims of street assault.



We should not be breaking crime down base on the identity politics of the victims. Crimes are crimes and should be judged equally.



Vote for law and order political parties if you want safer streets.

Beasty

Threads merged

Kivaro

Stateofyou wrote: »

I'm reminded of when people sometimes say "I have a racist friend so I can't be racist." :rolleyes:

Why are you resorting to hyperbole to make a point?

It is not often that you see a smiley emoji in response to someone who posted about being a victim of sexual assault. It is an appalling retort, and that is not me using hyperbole either.

Stateofyou

Kivaro wrote: »

It is not often that you see a smiley emoji in response to someone who posted about being a victim of sexual assault. It is an appalling retort, and that is not me using hyperbole either.

The smiley emoji is in reference to claiming to be an authority on or absolved from ignorance because of their stated proximity to an issue.

I didn't roll my eyes at their reveal, but you already knew that so yeah, hyperbole.

Men are not the only ones accountable here for contributing to or being complicit in reinforcing the harmful, backwards thinking and approach to sexual harassment and assault. Victims and women can also participate in, reinforce and perpetuate that culture. Just as people who have black friends can be racist and complicit in perpetuating racism.

anewme

In the UK misogyny is now to be treated as a hate crime.

nullzero

anewme wrote: »

In the UK misogyny is now to be treated as a hate crime.

Police in the UK will record hate crimes motivated by misogyny.

Being a misogynist won't be a criminal offence. Committing a crime motivated by misogyny will be something that is recorded as such.

anewme

nullzero wrote: »

Police in the UK will record hate crimes motivated by misogyny.

Being a misogynist won't be a criminal offence. Committing a crime motivated by misogyny will be something that is recorded as such.

Thsts the same as I said!

Great development.

99nsr125

anewme wrote: »

Thsts the same as I said!

Great development.

It's blatant sexism

So much for justice being blind

anewme

99nsr125 wrote: »

It's blatant sexism

So much for justice being blind

It's not.

Its the law.

Unfortunately, it does not suit you, but hate is hate.

nullzero

anewme wrote: »

Thsts the same as I said!

Great development.

No it isn't.

That's why I posted to clarify as your post suggested something different to the facts.

dontmindme

anewme wrote: »

In the UK misogyny is now to be treated as a hate crime.

Means nothing really.

Convictions will be hard one and then what - convicted offenders go on a misogynist register?

nullzero

dontmindme wrote: »

Means nothing really.

Convictions will be hard one and then what - convicted offenders go on a misogynist register?

This is exactly why I posted earlier.

The initial post by anewme suggests something that isn't true.

anewme

nullzero wrote: »

This is exactly why I posted earlier.

The initial post by anewme suggests something that isn't true.

It will be interesting to get the full wording and definition but it's a step in the right direction.

It's getting harder for men to carry out low level harrassment such as wolf whistling, cat calling etc, so it has to be viewed as a step forward,

dontmindme

anewme wrote: »

It will be interesting to get the full wording and definition but it's a step in the right direction.

It's getting harder for men to carry out low level harrassment such as wolf whistling, cat calling etc, so it has to be viewed as a step forward,

As an example...how will it be proved that whistling at a woman was an act of misogyny?

nullzero

anewme wrote: »

It will be interesting to get the full wording and definition but it's a step in the right direction.

It's getting harder for men to carry out low level harrassment such as wolf whistling, cat calling etc, so it has to be viewed as a step forward,

It would be a good idea to read up on it.

What is being proposed is an experimental method of collecting information that relates to the motivation behind certain crimes.

It isn't criminalising misogyny.

Kidchameleon

The survey is being interpreted wrong in this instance. They have sampled just 1000 women. We cannot extrapolate such a small sample size into a population of over 60 million. I know plenty of men who have been "sexually harassed". I could probably find 1000 such men easily. Therefore, like the survey in the OP, I could probably claim "almost all young men in the UK have been sexually harassed". The survey is complete BS and blatant agenda pushing. Whoever believes that BS is being naive and needs to turn on their critical thinking.

Quantum Erasure

Around 1000 people is the usual sample size for any poll, you get something like 95% confidence that the result matches the general population, with a margin of error of +/- 3% ...

That being said, the way its reported is bollocks. There were 120 women between 18 - 24 in the survey, and given a list of circumstances, 3% said they had experienced 'none of the above' BUT a further 12% didn't know / preferred not to say / choose not to answer...



https://twitter.com/xroxrox/status/1372290085950005256


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EwtajkeWUAAkpOw?format=jpg&name=large

Quantum Erasure

And then you get this kind of thing trending on Twitter, it's all over tiktok aswell I hear...

https://twitter.com/_tudulceninia/status/1372415400529387521



And people wonder why I try to get the facts