Almost all young women in the UK have been sexually harassed [MOD WARNING 1st POST]

optogirl

the_pen_turner wrote: »

doesnt really matter what your opinion is. the fact back that up

What fact? Please provide and I will honestly be very interested because if it's true than I need some education on the matter

strandroad

suicide_circus wrote: »

Whats the alternative to getting on with it?

People not accepting off colour behaviour?
Proper policing and charges?
Stop to victim blaming and placing restrictions on women?

Ronaldinho

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Well why did you have to Google it and copy paste a definition then instead of thinking for yourself?

I didn't have to!

Sarcozies

optogirl wrote: »

Are you seriously asking what men being the main perpetrators of violent crime has to do with anything? It is a response to the weak 'men are more likely to be attacked than women' trope which only supports the argument that there is a violence problem with men.

Black people are only a small subset of the population in America yet commit the most murders. Would you say black Americans have a violence problem?

.anon.

suicide_circus wrote: »

It doesn't negate anything. But being harassed, threatened, assaulted, abused etc is part of life for everyone unfortunately.

Literally every single time we have a thread about how some men behave towards women, we see the exact same types of posts from posters (mainly men) who (for whatever reason) will do whatever they can to negate or downplay it, usually by casting doubt on the survey itself, suggesting falsely that all men are being unfairly tarred with the same brush, or engaging in this sort of whataboutery.

I do not understand it. It's not a zero-sum game where we stand to lose something by acknowledging that it's a real problem, yet some seem to behave like it is.

suicide_circus

strandroad wrote: »

People not accepting off colour behaviour?
Proper policing and charges?
Stop to victim blaming and placing restrictions on women?

Absolutely. Public anger on this has never been stronger. The legal and policing response to this stuff has never been stronger. Victim blaming has never been less acceptable. We are moving in the right direction, no?

walshb

With the insane and utter dilution these days almost anything passes for sexual harassment.

Just look at Sil Fox. That actually went to court..

cooperguy

optogirl wrote: »

Are you seriously asking what men being the main perpetrators of violent crime has to do with anything? It is a response to the weak 'men are more likely to be attacked than women' trope which only supports the argument that there is a violence problem with men.

I'm sorry, no. This is a vast majority of decent people versus scum problem. I doubt targeting men in general gets the result you need versus the scum we're trying to deal with. Men are as much victims of violence.

Sarcozies

Sarcozies wrote: »

Black people are only a small subset of the population in America yet commit the most murders. Would you say black Americans have a violence problem?

Bold of you to imagine any of these "curfew the men" types feel a need for logical consistency.

.anon.

cooperguy wrote: »

I'm sorry, no. This is vast majority of decent people versus scum problem. I doubt targeting men in general gets the result you need versus the scum we're trying to deal with.

Nobody, absolutely nobody, is targeting men in general. There is no rational reason to feel that this is the case.

strandroad

Lee Fu Ho wrote: »

On one hand we're told crime is decreasing and on the other it seems men today have 1945 Red Army levels of rapiness

It's all very strange.

Perhaps it's simply ignored? As quoted in another thread:

Rape has always been a difficult crime to prove, but the criminal justice system has now reached crisis point.

In the year ending March 2020, 99% of rapes reported to police in England and Wales resulted in no legal proceedings against alleged attackers.

https://news.sky.com/story/99-of-rapes-reported-to-police-in-england-and-wales-do-not-result-in-legal-proceedings-why-12104130

suicide_circus

.anon. wrote: »

Literally every single time we have a thread about how some men behave towards women, we see the exact same types of posts from posters (mainly men) who (for whatever reason) will do whatever they can to negate or downplay it, usually by casting doubt on the survey itself, suggesting falsely that all men are being unfairly tarred with the same brush, or engaging in this sort of whataboutery.

I do not understand it. It's not a zero-sum game where we stand to lose something by acknowledging that it's a real problem, yet some seem to behave like it is.

Well we're told that people's "identies" and immutable characteristics are what define us. So when an identity group is (reasonably) criticised, it draws a defensive response. It's not right but it's not surprising either.

the_pen_turner

optogirl wrote: »

What fact? Please provide and I will honestly be very interested because if it's true than I need some education on the matter

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=116502002
here is a post i made a few days ago. the link is down at the moment for some reasons but it shows the number of reported cases that i talk about

optogirl

Deleted User wrote: »

Bold of you to imagine any of these "curfew the men" types feel a need for logical consistency.

I am not a 'curfew the men' type thank you but it makes more sense than police suggesting women stay at home to avoid being murdered.

seamus

So if you get back to basics here, there is clearly a very one-sided violence issue here. Men rape and murder women orders of magnitude more than women do.

They also rape and murder a lot more men than women do.

So clearly if we're going to try to drive down violence, focussing on men is the obvious place to start.

"Women should be careful" is obviously not a solution.

But I also think that the whole, "Men need to talk to their friends" thing is equally misguided. There's an assumption that all men have a dodgy mate, a mate who likes to grab women's arses, or who can't be left alone with one.

I don't think this is true. I don't know any men like this. Or if I do, they haven't revealed themselves to me. So WTF am I supposed to do about it? "Now lads, none of ye are into a bit of the aul...y'know...sexual assault, are ye?".

That sounds glib, but it's genuinely where I am. Asking me to talk to my friends about it is like asking me to talk to them about terrorism in Europe. "Shocking lads isn't it?". "Yeah, terrible, terrible".

That's a big chunk of why there's such a backlash from men about this. Men are being asked to fix a problem which they are no more empowered to fix than women.

The prevalence of this makes it seem like it's a lot of men, like every gang of mates must have one or two rapists in it.

In reality it's likely 1% of men carrying out 95% of incidents. That's still too high, but it means that most men never have and never will have a mate who's a danger to women.

strandroad

suicide_circus wrote: »

Absolutely. Public anger on this has never been stronger. The legal and policing response to this stuff has never been stronger. Victim blaming has never been less acceptable. We are moving in the right direction, no?

See the link I posted above for some eye opening stats on policing response (in the UK): 99% of *reported* rapes don't go anywhere.

Sarcozies

optogirl wrote: »

I am not a 'curfew the men' type thank you but it makes more sense than police suggesting women stay at home to avoid being murdered.

Would you say it makes more sense to put a disproportionate curfew on black men in the UK since they disproportionately commit more violent acts?

cooperguy

.anon. wrote: »

Nobody, absolutely nobody, is targeting men in general. There is no rational reason to feel that this is the case.

"It is a response to the weak 'men are more likely to be attacked than women' trope which only supports the argument that there is a violence problem with men."

iamstop

suicide_circus wrote: »

Pretty atrocious alright. How do we fix it?

I think men, and boys for that matter, should read first hand account of women this type of this has happened to and how it made them feel and how it makes them feel going forward.
I think many of the men doing this type of thing don't ever put themselves in the women's shoes (figuratively) and many don't realize the damage it causes.
I think if more men understood the ripple effect of their actions many would treat women with more respect.

Eric Cartman

.anon. wrote: »

Nobody, absolutely nobody, is targeting men in general. There is no rational reason to feel that this is the case.

And nobody is targeting women in general either, 95+%of men are not rapists and not out to attack women. Out of a pool of attackers (which is very small) , in that pool most of the perpetrators are men but most of them are targeting men.

Teaching vigilance to women is a fantastic idea , but we need to stop this charade where every woman goes on a first date mentally talking herself down from thinking the guy is an attacker or rapist, walking around at night with keys between fingers or afraid to go out at night.

The NGO industry and media has made serious coun winding up women into thinking the percentage of men who do harm to women is much higher than it realistically is.

* these stats are true of most areas in most western countries however non EU migrants are causing massive issues targeting women and as migrant populations increase it does decrease safety for women

suicide_circus

strandroad wrote: »

See the link I posted above for some eye opening stats on policing response (in the UK): 99% of *reported* rapes don't go anywhere.

That's because it's very hard to prove what happened in a he said she said scenario. If that's to change, we'll need to loosen our attachment to concepts such as presumption of innocence, which will obviously have negative consequences.

suicide_circus

iamstop wrote: »

I think men, and boys for that matter, should read first hand account of women this type of this has happened to and how it made them feel and how it makes them feel going forward.
I think many of the men doing this type of thing don't ever put themselves in the women's shoes (figuratively) and many don't realize the damage it causes.
I think if more men understood the ripple effect of their actions many would treat women with more respect.

That's a practical step certainly

strandroad

seamus wrote: »

The prevalence of this makes it seem like it's a lot of men, like every gang of mates must have one or two rapists in it.

In reality it's likely 1% of men carrying out 95% of incidents. That's still too high, but it means that most men never have and never will have a mate who's a danger to women.

For rape maybe. If you're decent you're likely to have decent enough friends.

But for harassment... it's really prevalent. If you know people who are comfortable sharing off colour jokes, victim blaming comments or ignorant views with you, think how bad they can get in real life with no witnesses around.

walshb

My view:

Men (not all, before anyone jumps in) have been raping and murdering women since we first roamed earth. It’s part of human nature, albeit a bad part. It will be happening long after we are all gone...

The fix? There is no fix. Never will be

To deal with it?

Women need to take control and forget the constantly focusing on the men. I say that purely from an advice angle.

Violence against anyone makes me nauseous..and anyone who knows my posting history will know this..

Women need to find ways to best protect them against bad men..

No point trying to eradicate it. You can’t

There are men out there who have never done wrong, only for one opportunistic moment where they killed..

You cannot ever legislate for this...

Housefree

The only way to solve all this is to have hard neck classes in school, bring back the stick & stones will break my bones.

Its all subjective experience, two women could have the same thing happen and only the blue haired one would think it's harassment

cooperguy

seamus wrote: »

So if you get back to basics here, there is clearly a very one-sided violence issue here. Men rape and murder women orders of magnitude more than women do.

They also rape and murder a lot more men than women do.

So clearly if we're going to try to drive down violence, focussing on men is the obvious place to start.

"Women should be careful" is obviously not a solution.

But I also think that the whole, "Men need to talk to their friends" thing is equally misguided. There's an assumption that all men have a dodgy mate, a mate who likes to grab women's arses, or who can't be left alone with one.

I don't think this is true. I don't know any men like this. Or if I do, they haven't revealed themselves to me. So WTF am I supposed to do about it? "Now lads, none of ye are into a bit of the aul...y'know...sexual assault, are ye?".

That sounds glib, but it's genuinely where I am. Asking me to talk to my friends about it is like asking me to talk to them about terrorism in Europe. "Shocking lads isn't it?". "Yeah, terrible, terrible".

That's a big chunk of why there's such a backlash from men about this. Men are being asked to fix a problem which they are no more empowered to fix than women.

The prevalence of this makes it seem like it's a lot of men, like every gang of mates must have one or two rapists in it.

In reality it's likely 1% of men carrying out 95% of incidents. That's still too high, but it means that most men never have and never will have a mate who's a danger to women.

This.
Combined with at least my impression from radio interviews from the last few days where woman describe walking in fear and always on their gaurd. There is a climate of fear being built that doesn't make sense. Woman are much less likely to be randomly attacked and if there is a sexual assault its extremely likely she will know the perpetrator, and its not a random street attack.

Housefree

Housefree wrote: »

The only way to solve all this is to have hard neck classes in school, bring back the stick & stones will break my bones.

Its all subjective experience, two women could have the same thing happen and only the blue haired one would think it's harassment

Not completely true.
Two women may have the same experience, they may both deal with it differently but they both are harassed (if it's a harassment incident)

anewme

If you did that survey here in Ireland, I'd say you'd get similar results.

EmmetSpiceland

seamus wrote: »

Men are being asked to fix a problem which they are no more empowered to fix than women.

This may well be true but the idea of lads clambering to get a post in dismissing there’s even a problem, victim blaming, trying to turn it into an immigration “issue”, an NGO concoction or claiming men are just as victimised is, quite frankly, bizarre.

anewme

Housefree wrote: »

The only way to solve all this is to have hard neck classes in school, bring back the stick & stones will break my bones.

Its all subjective experience, two women could have the same thing happen and only the blue haired one would think it's harassment

:rolleyes:

Casual misogyny.

Blue haired feminist nonsense.

Change the record...

strandroad

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

This may well be true but the idea of lads clambering to get a post in dismissing there’s even a problem, victim blaming, trying to turn it into an immigration “issue”, an NGO concoction or claiming men are just as victimised is, quite frankly, bizarre.

Well said. If you can't fix it at least acknowledge it, it's a very good start.

seamus

I'm not sure about the "climate of fear" thing. This isn't new, women have been on their guard for centuries. Told.in private between women about how to protect themselves. Knowing glances when someone's uncomfortable, subtle words and tactics to convey distress or concern that other women will pick up on.

Men are unaware of this because we're not in the same headspace. Yes, men are more likely to be attacked, but we're also brought up to believe that we can defend ourselves. We are men, we are strong.

Women know they cannot defend themselves. A male attacker is going to bigger and stronger. Usually considerably so.

From that perspective it's like being surrounded by bears. You might know that they're almost all pretty cuddly and placid. But you also know that your meat tastes delicious, and if one of them turned on you, there's physically **** all you can do about it. You can scream and shout and hope someone saves you, or you can lie back and hope he doesn't kill you before moving on.

That's where the biggest difference lies. One might say statistically men are more likely to be a victim, and you'd be right but the balance of power is always different. A man is far more likely to be able to fight off an attack than a woman.

This is why women move cautiously and fearfully. If they don't get the bears' attention, they won't die.

suicide_circus

Women have superior peripheral vision.

Men have better central vision.

This tells a story.

titan18

seamus wrote: »

I'm not sure about the "climate of fear" thing. This isn't new, women have been on their guard for centuries. Told.in private between women about how to protect themselves. Knowing glances when someone's uncomfortable, subtle words and tactics to convey distress or concern that other women will pick up on.

Men are unaware of this because we're not in the same headspace. Yes, men are more likely to be attacked, but we're also brought up to believe that we can defend ourselves. We are men, we are strong.

Women know they cannot defend themselves. A male attacker is going to bigger and stronger. Usually considerably so.

From that perspective it's like being surrounded by bears. You might know that they're almost all pretty cuddly and placid. But you also know that your meat tastes delicious, and if one of them turned on you, there's physically **** all you can do about it. You can scream and shout and hope someone saves you, or you can lie back and hope he doesn't kill you before moving on.

That's where the biggest difference lies. One might say statistically men are more likely to be a victim, and you'd be right but the balance of power is always different. A man is far more likely to be able to fight off an attack than a woman.

This is why women move cautiously and fearfully. If they don't get the bears' attention, they won't die.

I dunno, like I'm male, but I'd still take a fair amount of precautions when out by myself. I'm not going to walk down a dark alley, some of the areas around me can be pretty dodgy so I had always taken more care. Let's face it if someone is going to attack you randomly, in a lot of cases it's more than one person. I'm more wary around groups of teenagers where I live than any other grouping. You might be able to fight off one if you get lucky but you're not fighting off lots.

Ronaldinho

seamus wrote: »

The prevalence of this makes it seem like it's a lot of men, like every gang of mates must have one or two rapists in it.

In reality it's likely 1% of men carrying out 95% of incidents. That's still too high, but it means that most men never have and never will have a mate who's a danger to women.

It's not about rape though - it's sexual harassment. Don't necessarily need to be someone who's a 'danger to women' to make in into these statistics.

Looking at the report in closer detail - it's clear the effect that sexualaising society has had. The 55+ years category, having spent decades longer on the planet have experienced way less of these things.

strandroad

seamus wrote: »

Women know they cannot defend themselves. A male attacker is going to bigger and stronger. Usually considerably so.

From that perspective it's like being surrounded by bears. You might know that they're almost all pretty cuddly and placid. But you also know that your meat tastes delicious, and if one of them turned on you, there's physically **** all you can do about it. You can scream and shout and hope someone saves you, or you can lie back and hope he doesn't kill you before moving on.

That's where the biggest difference lies. One might say statistically men are more likely to be a victim, and you'd be right but the balance of power is always different. A man is far more likely to be able to fight off an attack than a woman.

You might be a man seamus but you get it.

I know that if any average sized hostile man gets his hands around my throat I'm finished. And when you experience sexual harassment such as catcalling, leering, dodgy compliments etc you have no idea if it's going to end up with his hands around your throat or not. It very well might so you need to be ready. And if you're not ready you'll be blamed. And you're also imagining it all.

titan18

strandroad wrote: »

You might be a man seamus but you get it.

Is that not a fairly sexist comment?

Zaney

I have had many unpleasant experiences - bosses, a relative, teachers, strangers as I walked home late at night. Nothing serious thank God, nothing worthy of a police report. I should’ve made complaints, but this was years ago and there just wasn’t as much conversation about how unacceptable it was.

I spoke to friends a couple of years ago and my experiences were not exceptional except for the
relative.

shesty

I went to college and work in a very male environment.(woman - obviously).Spent the first 5 years of my career on building sites.
I never had problems that were in my face exactly, but I was always kind of aware of it in the background ...like on sunny days on site, I would always make sure I chose a top that showed little enough skin other than my arms, because it is hard enough to be taken seriously as a female engineer on a site, without being ogled on top of it.You would always be aware on nights out...who are the sleazy ones, you would note what lads can't hold their drink, and what couple of lads might be decent enough to share a taxi home with...and if they weren't going, how was I going to get home.Always aware there was a stage of the night I would have to leave at.Like I can't say it is something I consciously thought about all the time but it would be in the back of your mind - that lad is getting messy, I will sit over the other side when I get back from the loo kind of thing. Standard to text friends when they or you get in the door safely. Or hang on in the taxi or car til they get in their door. I don't worry too much walking at night where I live, but in town definitely.No headphones, hands out of pockets, walk quickly, don't look people in the eye usually, that sort of thing.

It is just life as a woman.You don't notice it because it is what you are used to.It's just in your subconscious all the time.

strandroad

titan18 wrote: »

Is that not a fairly sexist comment?

How? It's a compliment. Not everyone is able to understand the experience of someone of another gender so well.

.anon.

titan18 wrote: »

Is that not a fairly sexist comment?

Or is it an indictment of not only the number of men on here who clearly don't get it, but also the sheer extent to which they don't?

suicide_circus

Zaney wrote: »

I have had many unpleasant experiences - bosses, a relative, teachers, strangers as I walked home late at night. Nothing serious thank God, nothing worthy of a police report. I should’ve made complaints, but this was years ago and there just wasn’t as much conversation about how unacceptable it was.

I spoke to friends a couple of years ago and my experiences were not exceptional except for the
relative.

A relative? jesus...

titan18

strandroad wrote: »

How? It's a compliment. Not everyone is able to understand the experience of someone of another gender so well.

As one man, I'd feel insulted if you said for a man you get it to me and I'm sure most women would feel insulted if a man said to them for a woman you get it on any male experiences.

randd1

Some studies actually say it’s sexually aggressive to find women attractive, as you are reducing them to the role of objects.

Other studies have shown that women who feel that men considering them as attractive such an action as an act of sexual harassment.

Adding the two together, the next logical step in crazy is to assume that any man who has ever found a woman attractive is guilty of objectification, and therefore guilty of sexual violence, while a woman who was considered attractive was the victim of sexual violence.

You heard it here first folks.

anewme

randd1 wrote: »

Some studies actually say it’s sexually aggressive to find women attractive, as you are reducing them to the role of objects.

Other studies have shown that women who feel that men considering them as attractive such an action as an act of sexual harassment.

Adding the two together, the next logical step in crazy is to assume that any man who has ever found a woman attractive is guilty of objectification, and therefore guilty of sexual violence, while a woman who was considered attractive was the victim of sexual violence.

You heard it here first folks.

Thsts some stretch!

average hero

So here I go again on my owwwnn...

I am going to try to strike a middle of the road debate here, probably fail miserably but write a big long post anyway. I would like to state at the outset that I feel genuinely sympathetic towards anyone who has been harassed in any way.

The recent horrific killing in London has highlighted violence and harassment against women. I am sick to my stomach about it, particularly so because I used to live in the Clapham/Streatham area and can viscerally picture her route. The poor woman - may she rest in peace. If the suspect is found guilty - throw the f-ing book at him.

Is there a problem with harassment? Probably, yes. I would like to see the numbers reported interrogated more thoroughly. The article seems to have a certain agenda however. Look at the title and then look where it clarifies the age group it means then.
The article is stating that younger women are modifying their behaviour to avoid being objectified. This is sad. There does appear to be a sizeable cohort of young women (and men!) on Instagram or Onlyfans who are doing the exact opposite. I don't buy the narrative absolutely. Perhaps partially.

Anecdotally, when I was young, fit and handsome (a long time ago now!) and I was working on the door, my backside used to be squeezed by women most nights I worked. This wasn't a big deal and the only time it annoyed me too much was when it was a particularly odd/creepy woman who wanted my attention. Hell, I was grabbed to be 'snogged' some nights too.
What is my point? Well while all acts were non-consensual, it only bothered me to where it annoyed me on a subjective basis. I would suggest that much of this topic is subjective. This makes it difficult to assess.

On fewer occasions, my genitals would be grabbed and on one occasion a hand was slipped down the front of my trousers unexpectedly and without my consent. What's my point? While this was unpleasant, I got on with it. It happened but I focused on my job and forgot about it afterwards. As a society, we need to teach resilience. It is one of the most important things in the world.

I don't make light of the above, I am simply advocating that while unpleasant things happened, we need to highlight personal resilience, resolve, determination to deal with setbacks and terrible events. We can only control ourselves and our own decisions - not other's.

On safety - the unfortunate fact is that there are terrible, twisted, murderous people about. Media campaigns unfortunately can't change that (if you think they can, I would ask what else you think the media influences...). There is a dark lane which can be lonely at night near my home. I would not advise my partner, son or daughter to go down it at night however I would walk down it. Why? Because I know the risks, I am taking a calculated risk - I am a large-ish man who is strong(ish!) and knows a few martial arts styles. Nothing to do with sexism, all to do with assessing risks and taking ownership of those risks, knowing there are weirdos out there. That is real life in the cold logical light of day, unfortunately.

On generalisations - calling on men as a whole to do more is counterproductive. It is media BS. Is it white men? Russian men? Black men? Muslim men? Is that sectarian? Is it rascist? Is it sexist? If we generalise for this, should we do it for race, nationality, religion? Understand where that thinking would lead us to is all I would caution against.

Moreso than anything, my thoughts are where do these article's narratives lead us to? I would argue a more conservative world. As a slight conservative, I welcome this to a degree. A return to values for men. The frowning upon of the uber-liberal 'lad' types and gutter press of the 90s. No top-shelf magazines or page 3. More Reese-Mogg dinner party than free love at woodstock.

Is harassment a problem for women? Yes. As a society, we all need to do better.

Sorry for the long, drunken rant. Didn't mean to offend, won't be dragged into slagging match. Have a nice weekend all.

meeeeh

I'm not surprised at all by the stats. The funny thing is I was never afraid of the really bad attacks because I know that is relatively rare. Minor harassment is done by the 'good ones'. A 16 year old kid who gets drunk and thinks grabbing someone's arse is the way to pick up girls. A vulnerable adult who gets a bit obsessed with you and follows you at night. (I had two of them). An Italian tourist with wandering hands who would never behave like that at home. A local drunk who compliments your father how good his mistress looks when you go out for a lunch.

I had a lot worse experiences than that too but it is just not true that only the 'bad ones' harass women. I was friendly with guys who behaved appallingly towards other women after they had a few drinks. Because that's the type of transgression which is usually shrugged off and there are never any consequences to their actions.

HamSarris

20% of women have been sexually harassed
The other 80% are either overly sensitive, man-haters, believe they are so attractive that they must have been harassed etc.

If you did another survey 100% of women would probably say that men are not brave enough these days to ask women out.

meeeeh

HamSarris wrote: »

20% of women have been sexually harassed
The other 80% are either overly sensitive, man-haters, believe they are so attractive that they must have been harassed etc.

If you did another survey 100% of women would probably say that men are not brave enough these days to ask women out.

I didn't know you need to plant you hand on someone's arse to ask them out.

optogirl

HamSarris wrote: »

20% of women have been sexually harassed
The other 80% are either overly sensitive, man-haters, believe they are so attractive that they must have been harassed etc.

If you did another survey 100% of women would probably say that men are not brave enough these days to ask women out.

Will you just stop. It's exhausting. What in jaysus' name does 'believe they are so attractive that they must have been harassed' mean?