Almost all young women in the UK have been sexually harassed [MOD WARNING 1st POST]

It's terrible that I read the title of this thread and knew 2 posters in particular would be making an appearance to downplay it almost immediately. I read every post and then I seen them making the exact comments I expected them to. It's incredibly sad how some people tie their entire identity to a political ideology like these two posters do. Mr "cartoon character from a long running comedy central show" and Mr "extinction of a physics entitiy", women don't live the same lives as you. Some actually get harrassed for being women.

As Dave Chappelle pointed out in his comedy special from a few years back.
"i got paid 25K when i was 17 and was scared to walk around with it in a backpack cause i never had something somebody wanted so much. i knew they would kill me if they knew i had this money. and then I realised, this must be what women feel like all the time!"

ILoveYourVibes

suicide_circus wrote: »

Pretty atrocious alright. How do we fix it?

Sadly we can't.

This much is true. We can't fix it.

However we CAN help women cope with it.

And we can acknowledge it and STOP making women feel society is living in a different reality. And stop blaming women.

You don't have to fix it. I mean do what you can. But women don't expect perfection. We just expect reality to be acknowledged.

Its a fantasy that it can be fixed imo.

That doesn't mean we don't try though.

walshb

My feeling:

Women and men need to stop thinking that because people are asking women to take charge and to change behaviours that they are being blamed..

It’s nonsense.

We cannot eradicate humans doing bad things to humans. Cannot..

Some men will hurt women. Always and forever.

People will never be free of this..

How do we fight and manage it is the key. Not fix. It’s not fixable..

So, women are the ones that are far more affected by sexual violence. Women need to take charge and concentrate on what they need to do to lessen the risk.

Society, all of us need to help here.

The constant blaming men doesn’t at all help anything. The constant asking men to change doesn’t fix anything. There will always be some men who will hurt people..

walshb

walshb wrote: »

My feeling:

Women and men need to stop thinking that because people are asking women to take charge and to change behaviours that they are being blamed..

It’s nonsense.

We cannot eradicate humans doing bad things to humans. Cannot..

Some men will hurt women. Always and forever.

People will never be free of this..

How do we fight and manage it is the key. Not fix. It’s not fixable..

So, women are the ones that are far more affected by sexual violence. Women need to take charge and concentrate on what they need to do to lessen the risk.

Society, all of us need to help here.

The constant blaming men doesn’t at all help anything. The constant asking men to change doesn’t fix anything. There will always be some men who will hurt people..

You do know that sexual harassment is not sexual assault right?
Just what do you think women should do?

Man shouts at woman in the street, something disgusting about what he would like to do to her, his buddies all laugh.
Man grabs woman by the vagina as she walks past him in a pub.
Man sends his unsolicited dick pic to a woman from work.
Man says to woman in the street, nice tits, pity about your face.
Man says to woman in work, so will you give your fella a blow job this weekend?

What do you suggest women do to stop the above?

walshb

bubblypop wrote: »

You do know that sexual harassment is not sexual assault right?
Just what do you think women should do?

Man shouts at woman in the street, something disgusting about what he would like to do to her, his buddies all laugh.
Man grabs woman by the vagina as she walks past him in a pub.
Man sends his unsolicited dick pic to a woman from work.
Man says to woman in the street, nice tits, pity about your face.
Man says to woman in work, so will you give your fella a blow job this weekend?

What do you suggest women do to stop the above?

Yes, I know. But the thread has meandered to all forms sexual harassment and mentioned violence well.

Same, women can’t eradicate the above. Nobody can. It’s about managing situations. And using whatever laws we have to fight it.

Men and women are always going to partake in sexual harassment and whatever.

It’s a huge part of our being. From innocent and non malicious to deadly. And all in between.

It’s a very subjective area. Depends so much on people’s perceptions..

And society has ridiculously diluted it..

walshb

walshb wrote: »

Yes, I know. But the thread has meandered to all forms sexual harassment and mentioned violence well.

Same, women can’t eradicate the above. Nobody can. It’s about managing situations. And using whatever laws we have to fight it.

Men and women are always going to partake in sexual harassment or whatever.

It’s a huge part of our being. From innocent and non malicious to deadly. And all in between.

So, you seem to think that women have to do something about it, if anything is to be done.
So, what do you suggest women do about it?

walshb

bubblypop wrote: »

So, you seem to think that women have to do something about it, if anything is to be done.
So, what do you suggest women do about it?

Read my post again.

There are laws in society that can be used..if women believe that they are victims of sexual harassment, they can go down this route. Report to the police and go from there.

walshb

walshb wrote: »

Read my post again.

There are laws in society that can be used..if women believe that they are victims of sexual harassment, they can go down this route. Report to the police and go from there.

Sexual harassment is not a criminal offence.
What does a woman do when someone says something to her in the street?
What does she do with an unsolicited dick pic?

What laws should she use?

walshb

bubblypop wrote: »

Sexual harassment is not a criminal offence.
What does a woman do when someone says something to get in the street?
What does she do with an unsolicited dick pic?

Ok,

I wasn’t aware that sexual harassment was not liable to be prosecuted..

Are you sure sexual harassment legislation does not exist, and people cannot be brought before the courts here?

So, not really sure what they can do then..

We could suggest some things, but they are just suggestions.

You cannot eradicate these behaviours..

But society could try!
Starting with education I believe.

walshb

Are there harassment laws in Ireland?

If so, so they cover a range of topics?

walshb

walshb wrote: »

Ok,

I wasn’t aware that sexual harassment was not liable to be prosecuted..

Are you sure sexual harassment legislation does not exist, and people cannot be brought before the courts here?

So, not really sure what they can do then..

We could suggest some things, but they are just suggestions.

You cannot eradicate these behaviours..

Sexual harassment legislation does exist, but it is workplace legislation.
It is not a criminal offence and gardai have no power regarding it

walshb

bubblypop wrote: »

But society could try!
Starting with education I believe.

Yep.

And starting in the home/family!

walshb

walshb wrote: »

Are there harassment laws in Ireland?

If so, so they cover a range of topics?

Yes, harassment is an offence, section 10 (if I rem right) of the non fatal offences against the person act.
It's a persistent and continued behaviour though, to stop stalking and such

walshb

bubblypop wrote: »

Sexual harassment legislation does exist, but it is workplace legislation.
It is not a criminal offence and gardai have no power regarding it

But could it fall under harassment laws, I wonder?

Surely it can.

walshb

bubblypop wrote: »

Yes, harassment is an offence, section 10 (if I rem right) of the non fatal offences against the person act.
It's a persistent and continued behaviour though, to stop stalking and such

Gotcha...

walshb

walshb wrote: »

But could it fall under harassment laws, I wonder?

Surely it can.

It would depend on the behaviour. You can check the legislation I posted above.
The everyday issues of men saying disgusting things in the street, commenting on women's body or face, grabbing their crotch, making humping movements while shouting at you, those are things women just have to put up with. Those are the things that need to be stopped.
If society believed those 'little' things to be wrong, perhaps it could stop 'bigger' things happening, if you know what I mean?

walshb

bubblypop wrote: »

It would depend on the behaviour. You can check the legislation I posted above.
The everyday issues of men saying disgusting things in the street, commenting on women's body or face, grabbing their crotch, making humping movements while shouting at you, those are things women just have to put up with. Those are the things that need to be stopped.
If society believed those 'little' things to be wrong, perhaps it could stop 'bigger' things happening, if you know what I mean?

You said it earlier. Education is really only way to manage it.

average hero

BlueJay424 wrote: »

Long time user....

One tweet that caught me:

If every woman you know has done what is in this tweet there has to be some reason for it, mainly experiences they or people around them have had & they're mitigating the risk.

It is sad that you experienced what you did.

Not to be flippant, but that tweet is stating good and proper tactics that anyone should follow to stay safe. I have used many of those tactics when I have felt unsafe in cities in Eastern Europe, Leeds, London and my hometown of Dublin. And I can handle myself. And I take the consequences for taking a risk of walking down a dark lane. Doesn't mean I deserve anything to happen.

My point is that these are reasonable and sensible tactics to potential risks. It shows sense and I hope that my son AND daughter would use these and more to ensure their own safety.

Risk - there are murderous, twisted people out there.
Risk mitigation - understand the risk, take responsibility to have phone ready to use, keys in hand and run if in lane. let someone know where you are, dont put yourself in a vulnerable position..

The above is not sexist - it is for both men and women. Everyone regardless of gender needs to look after themselves, be responsible and take responsible actions. That is equal and sensible.

As stated previously. I welcome the media trying to move men in particular away from the vulgar, value-less, and crass behaviours of the liberal society. A more conservative and value-driven society will be better for all.

walshb

average hero wrote: »

It is sad that you experienced what you did.

Not to be flippant, but that tweet is stating good and proper tactics that anyone should follow to stay safe. I have used many of those tactics when I have felt unsafe in cities in Eastern Europe, Leeds, London and my hometown of Dublin. And I can handle myself. And I take the consequences for taking a risk of walking down a dark lane. Doesn't mean I deserve anything to happen.

My point is that these are reasonable and sensible tactics to potential risks. It shows sense and I hope that my son AND daughter would use these and more to ensure their own safety.

Risk - there are murderous, twisted people out there.
Risk mitigation - understand the risk, take responsibility to have phone ready to use, keys in hand and run if in lane. let someone know where you are, dont put yourself in a vulnerable position..

The above is not sexist - it is for both men and women. Everyone regardless of gender needs to look after themselves, be responsible and take responsible actions. That is equal and sensible.

As stated previously. I welcome the media trying to move men in particular away from the vulgar, value-less, and crass behaviours of the liberal society. A more conservative and value-driven society will be better for all.

Excellent post.

We don’t live in a Carlsberg world, and never will

People need to take individual responsibility and ensure they are behaving g in a manner that ensures they are as safe as possible..

People. All of us...

I have son and daughter. Both need to be very in tune when out and about..

Females more so due to them not being as physically capable as men to physically defend against dangers..

walshb

One thing I am fed up with is constant use of the term “you’re victim blaming” anytime anyone even offers genuine and caring advice to women to try and show how women can better protect themselves from danger...

Some people do victim blame. Not all of us are victim blaming when offering sincere and caring advice to women.

Scratchly

bubblypop wrote: »

Sexual harassment legislation does exist, but it is workplace legislation.
It is not a criminal offence and gardai have no power regarding it

Do you think there should be more stringent laws? And out of interest what should they cover?

Should unwanted sexual remarks be a criminal offence for example?

walshb

Scratchly wrote: »

Do you think there should be more stringent laws? And out of interest what should they cover?

Should unwanted sexual remarks be a criminal offence for example?

Almost impossible to prove unless reliable witnesses.

walshb

And the other thing.

Do we really want to go down the road with the gardai inundated with claims from women about strangers of the variety: man commented on my nice legs, leered at me, bumped against me on the train, wolf whistled to be from atop a building?

Has the disgusting Sil Fox case not shown us anything?

SnuggyBear

Is prick teasing sexual harrasment? I'm talking about a women putting her leg up on a bench leg where her skirt rides up to show everything off right in front of you. Women commenting on your arse? Winking at you? Going down on her knees in front of you to pick something up while looking up at with her tits on display. Older women coming onto you saying what they would do to you? Hovering around you for no reason. Constant innuendo. Ask someone for something and they say they would do anything for you and I mean anything wink wink.

Is any of this sexual harrasment? This is what I've dealt with different women Some of it from managers. Seems like it's fine for women to do this to men.

walshb

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Is prick teasing sexual harrasment? I'm talking about a women putting her leg up on a bench leg where her skirt rides up to show everything off right in front of you. Women commenting on your arse? Winking at you? Going down on her knees in front of you to pick something up whole looking up at with her tits on display. Older women coming onto you? Hovering around you for no reason. Constant innuendo.

Is any of this sexual harrasment? This is what I've dealt with. Some of it from managers. Seems like it's fine for women to do this to men.

World today is bonkers.

I can’t make head nor tales of it

Part the madness is the incessant digging for stuff...

Ave Sodalis

SnuggyBear wrote:

Is any of this sexual harrasment? This is what I've dealt with different women Some of it from managers. Seems like it's fine for women to do this to men.

Unwanted, inappropriate attention of that kind is not okay, regardless of gender. I'm not sure anyone here is saying it is.

joe40

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Is prick teasing sexual harrasment? I'm talking about a women putting her leg up on a bench leg where her skirt rides up to show everything off right in front of you. Women commenting on your arse? Winking at you? Going down on her knees in front of you to pick something up while looking up at with her tits on display. Older women coming onto you saying what they would do to you? Hovering around you for no reason. Constant innuendo. Ask someone for something and they say they would do anything for you and I mean anything wink wink.

Is any of this sexual harrasment? This is what I've dealt with different women Some of it from managers. Seems like it's fine for women to do this to men.

Yes, you would be entitled to complain.

SnuggyBear

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Unwanted, inappropriate attention of that kind is not okay, regardless of gender. I'm not sure anyone here is saying it is.

A man who went and reported that would be laughed out of the room.

meeeeh

I think quite a few posters here who are dismissing wandering hands and similar would go mental if someone did that to their wife or girlfriend. It only matters when someone interferes with their possessions.

Faugheen

SnuggyBear wrote: »

A man who went and reported that would be laughed out of the room.

Would they?

I’m sure there are examples of a company that would, but there are companies that would bat away a woman’s complaint aswell.

EmmetSpiceland

meeeeh wrote: »

I think quite a few posters here who are dismissing wandering hands and similar would go mental if someone did that to their wife or girlfriend. It only matters when someone interferes with their possessions.

Well, if they had one.

Scratchly

Scratchly wrote: »

Do you think there should be more stringent laws? And out of interest what should they cover?

Should unwanted sexual remarks be a criminal offence for example?

I dont, personally.
I think there are enough laws as it is.
But I do think people need to take responsibility for what they say, how they behave. They need to teach their children to respect, everyone. Behaviour such as sexual harassment should be stamped out when They are young.
Society needs to realise that it is not acceptable.

anewme

joe40 wrote: »

Yes, you would be entitled to complain.

To maintain professionalism, I'd avoid using terms" like prick teasing "and 'tits on display'' in making your complaint.

SnuggyBear

SnuggyBear wrote: »

A man who went and reported that would be laughed out of the room.

And a woman who complains about men discussing her tits is treated the exact same.

Tig98

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Is any of this sexual harrasment? This is what I've dealt with different women Some of it from managers. Seems like it's fine for women to do this to men.

I think men and women have different means of classification of sexually harassment, whereas men classify things as less important/significant when they happen to us because we're generally less vulnerable.

I'm a gay man and have had a few incidents where girls try come onto me even after they know Im gay and won't be interested. One girl in particular from my home town has a thing for me, and made many very aggressive attempts to force me into shifting her, grabbing my crotch etc back when the pubs were open. I wouldn't class it as sexual harassment because its like swatting away a fly, its annoying but I know ultimately she can't make me do anything I don't want to.

I think women are more cautious and its obviously for good reason, but this idea of villifiying all men is a bit ridiculous. "Not all men, but all women" is fair, but you can't brand every man as a threat for fear of fear

Invidious

“We are looking at a situation where younger women are constantly modifying their behaviour in an attempt to avoid being objectified..."

I wonder if they've checked out the Instagram accounts, Tinder profiles, and nightclub attire of 18-24 year old women?

This generation of women is far more comfortable with openly sexualized self-display than any previous generation. The notion that they spend their time turning cartwheels in an effort to avoid being objectified is nonsense. Many of them actively embrace objectification and all the social media attention that comes with it.

They also want it both ways: If an attractive man compliments them or admires their body, they're delighted. If an unattractive man compliments them or admires their body, they're being sexually harrassed.

joe40

walshb wrote: »

One thing I am fed up with is constant use of the term “you’re victim blaming” anytime anyone even offers genuine and caring advice to women to try and show how women can better protect themselves from danger...

Some people do victim blame. Not all of us are victim blaming when offering sincere and caring advice to women.

What advice do you think you could give that adult women don't already know.

anewme

Invidious wrote: »

They also want it both ways: If an attractive man compliments them or admires their body, they're delighted. If an unattractive man compliments them or admires their body, they're being sexually harrassed.

Ah this old chestnut again.

walshb

joe40 wrote: »

What advice do you think you could give that adult women don't already know.

Whether or not they know, and maybe some don’t..

It’s simply caring and sincere advice..

And it’s advice from people to people. People caring for people. Gender removed.

And people reinforcing safe and safe advice.

Invidious

anewme wrote: »

Ah this old chestnut again.

Ah this old cliché again.

anewme

Invidious wrote: »

They also want it both ways: If an attractive man compliments them or admires their body, they're delighted. If an unattractive man compliments them or admires their body, they're being sexually harrassed.

Invidious wrote: »

Ah this old cliché again.

Yep.

jrosen

I was surprised to see what some consider sexual harassment. Some women are saying being approached on a night out by a guy they consider sexual harassment.
Brushing past them, smiling, looking at them, asking them out or asking if they have a boyfriend already.

walshb

jrosen wrote: »

I was surprised to see what some consider sexual harassment. Some women are saying being approached on a night out by a guy they consider sexual harassment.
Brushing past them, smiling, looking at them, asking them out or asking if they have a boyfriend already.

This is the absolute madness of the dilution in society today..

It will get to the point where we don’t procreate anymore, because we’re all terrified to do a thing that could be seen as improper...

the_pen_turner

anewme wrote: »

Ah this old chestnut again.

It's perfectly true though.
If someone slaps you on the arse it's very clear cut and obvious that its inappropriate
But if your attracted to someone you are going to receive them flirting and asking you out a lot better than someone you dont find attractive.
That's human nature and will never change

Faugheen

jrosen wrote: »

I was surprised to see what some consider sexual harassment. Some women are saying being approached on a night out by a guy they consider sexual harassment.
Brushing past them, smiling, looking at them, asking them out or asking if they have a boyfriend already.

You have literally just made this up.

SnuggyBear

Faugheen wrote: »

You have literally just made this up.

No he didn't read that list of what's considered sexual hartasment. Looking at someone is considered sexual harrasment according to that.

anewme

the_pen_turner wrote: »

It's perfectly true though.
If someone slaps you on the arse it's very clear cut and obvious that its inappropriate
But if your attracted to someone you are going to receive them flirting and asking you out a lot better than someone you dont find attractive.
That's human nature and will never change

No, I disagree, if a stranger walking up the street comments on my body and I'm out walking the dog for example, I'm not going to be delighted just because hes attractive.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

No, I disagree, if a stranger walking up the street comments on my body and I'm out walking the dog for example, I'm not going to be delighted just because hes attractive.

Context is important.
That situation is wholly inappropriate.

Its been a long time since some young one grabbed my ass in a club, but if they were attractive, it might lead to some flirting , if not (and usually this was my fate), you moved on.

I dont think the attractiveness of your "transgressor" mitigating the transgression is wholly without substance in certain circumstances.

MikeOxsgreen

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Context is important.
That situation is wholly inappropriate.

Its been a long time since some young one grabbed my ass in a club, but if they were attractive, it might lead to some flirting , if not (and usually this was my fate), you moved on.

I dont think the attractiveness of your "transgressor" mitigating the transgression is wholly without substance in certain circumstances.

I remember one night in particular, I was in a busy bar in Dublin Camden st.
During that night, two different men, on two different occasions, grabbed me by the crotch, hard, grabbed right on.
I can assure you, if it was Brad Pitt, I would have still thought they were assholes and it most certainly would not lead to any flirting!