Line between flirting and harrasment?

MrStuffins

HamSarris wrote: »

Women in 2021: We live in a rape culture where I can't walk down the street without being harassed. Men leave us alone.

Women in 2031: We live in a world full of pathetic men who would rather watch virtual reality porn than talk to a woman.

There are a certain number of creeps who have really warped ideas as to where they stand in society, where women stand in society and how society is in general.

These creeps are the ones who are doing the harassing that women are speaking about. Sometimes they won't, but a lot of the time they will exhibit red flags with behaviours, with actions or with statements. There have been a few in this thread.

This is one of those red flags

Galwayguy35

Never went down the flirting route, if I saw someone i like I went over to make contact and if they weren't interested I went on my merry way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jygOs2AVFlQ

MrStuffins

MrStuffins wrote: »

There are a certain number of creeps who have really warped ideas as to where they stand in society, where women stand in society and how society is in general.

These creeps are the ones who are doing the harassing that women are speaking about. Sometimes they won't, but a lot of the time they will exhibit red flags with behaviours, with actions or with statements. There have been a few in this thread.

This is one of those red flags

Tell us all the red flags.

Tell us how women should be treated.

Tell us how men and women are equal and have no differences.

Tell us how everyone is equal.

Then tell is how we should treat women differently because of their experiences.

Tell us how we should elevate and venerate the woman because of the patriarchy.

Then tell me how you aren't a sexist or transphobic for expecting women to be treated differently.

MrStuffins

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Tell us all the red flags.

Tell us how women should be treated.

Tell us how men and women are equal and have no differences.

Tell us how everyone is equal.

Then tell is how we should treat women differently because of their experiences.

Tell us how we should elevate and venerate the woman because of the patriarchy.

Then tell me how you aren't a sexist or transphobic for expecting women to be treated differently.

I feel like this is about something else......

Mister Vain

GooglePlus wrote: »

I don't try to flirt or that. I try to knock a bit of craic and have the laugh with them, maybe even have a conversation that's genuine. If they're not getting my craic, I lose interest fairly quick. There's nothing more attractive than someone I can laugh my arse off with and from experience, I've found that they find nothing more attractive either.

I find this to be the best way alright. I'm terrible at the whole flirting/chatting up thing. It just seems so forced. It's much more fun when you can have a laugh and a bit of craic with someone.

Mimon

Mister Vain wrote: »

I find this to be the best way alright. I'm terrible at the whole flirting/chatting up thing. It just seems so forced. It's much more fun when you can have a laugh and a bit of craic with someone.

When I was single I would more likely get attention from women on nights out by not looking for any attention, just going out and enjoying the night with my friends and being sociable with everyone in the place.

I feel like I was conditioned to push boundaries growing up. Guys are supposed to make all the first moves. Girls are supposed to be coy otherwise they're labelled "sluts".

GooglePlus

Ryan_Garcia_ wrote: »

Flirting shouldn't be forced, it's about being playful, teasing each other and having fun.

Flirting from the onset can only be forced though. Like in a club for instance, you'd see lads walking up to girls and going straight into a flirt game, which the girl might love either for the flattery or she's just as mad for the ride as him. That kind of flirting is all well and good for a yes or no, move on situation but it can only be forced, sure you wouldn't even know the girl so all you can really comment on is her looks, so it is a bit forced at times. Genuine flirting can happen after a bit of conversation and getting to know eachother over a few drinks or dinner but the conversation, a bit of a laugh etc. would come first.

Mister Vain

Yeah obviously you can flirt with someone once you've gotten to know them a bit. Trying to strike up a conversation with a stranger in a noisy club is a different story though

MrStuffins

MrStuffins wrote: »

Yes.

And how do you know which is which unless the line is pointed out to you? ANd there's a simple way to do that.

If a woman asks you to leave her alone, you should probably leave her alone. Honestly not that hard to understand. Not matter how many times you present the same question in different scenatrios.

Which is grand. You're right. A woman asks you to leave her alone, you should leave her alone.

However, that's the most obvious behavior that a woman is not interested. Many women won't say that, and will rely on body language as opposed to the verbal. At that point, the line between harassment and "chasing" is very fine. Especially since body language can be very different depending on the individual. And yes, some body language is very obvious, but again, many women won't show that, instead using another way to express themselves.

We have a society that, for a very long time, encouraged the idea that men should pursue women. We still have movies and tv shows which show a couple magically coming together because the man continued to chase the woman. Apparently, it's romantic under the right circumstances.

I've been dating a long time, and yes, I tend to stop with a woman when I hit any obvious roadblock... but at the same time, the interactions with women, are not as simple as many here want to make them out to be. There's an attitude of simplifying human behavior, as if all women will behave the same way, which they most definitely don't.

The sad thing is that many women will judge a man based on his approach, and if he is lacking in confidence, she'll dismiss him. This fine line about harassment pretty much guarantees that men with little experience will be lacking in confidence, because they can be accused of harassment for the simplest of approaches, and that will bleed into their confidence.

TBH IMHO western dating is too effort now. There are too many risks involved, from the approach, right through to how she might perceive the end result. I'd recommend most guys to date other cultural groups where dating, and approaches are far more obvious, and set within boundaries of traditional social norms... because within western society, there are no norms anymore. Everything and anything is possible.

MrStuffins

MrStuffins wrote: »

I feel like this is about something else......

Well, think of this way. We once had a traditional society, with clear guidelines on behavior, especially when it came to dating and relationships. However, that society was sexist and unfair, so all guidelines were burned away to free people from repressive rules. Grand.

Except, all people weren't freed. Women were freed, men were encouraged to continue the past roles. Men should continue to protect women. Men should continue being the first to initiate any romantic initiatives. Men should.. etc. It's obvious enough that the gender roles in traditional society, still exist today for men. However, the gender roles for women were sexist and as such, all rules/customs about women should be destroyed. Which, for the most part, except where they wanted to retain them, were. Women wanted to continue being protected, so they were. They still wanted motherhood to be special, so it was. However, a wide range of other gender roles were abolished.

The point is that for the last 30 years, most traditional social expectations for women have been removed. They have the freedom to dress as they wish. To get drunk, and party the same as a man. To be an Ahole, just the same as any other man might be an Ahole... all the while retaining the benefits or advantages that existed in the traditional society.

If you've got even the slightest sense of fairness, you'll be able to see and acknowledge this about western society.

The problem is that when you remove the customs, and rules for society, what do you replace them with? For most western cultures, the clear and specific traditional customs, were replaced with vague ideas of "you should just know". Worse yet, these newer customs were subject to change over time, so it wasn't the case of learning a new set of guidelines and running with them, but needing to update yourself every few years. And when, the expectation is on men to initiate romantic/intimate proceedings, that's going to cause problems... because there are no clear rules and guidelines for them to follow. Just.. "it's obvious, you should just know".

At the same time, those traditional values (which had been replaced) were still being presented in movies, and TV as being important. We received conflicting statements, whereby some would say this behavior is wrong, and condescending, whereas others would describe it as being romantic. Western society has been fed conflicting ideas on what is acceptable and unacceptable for decades, so, where should men learn how to behave?

They learn as they've always learned. By doing. So we all learn how to approach women, by approaching women, trying different things to see what works. In the past, under a traditional system, that was easier since women were confined within gender stereotypes, so a system could be established. However, without that framework, everyone was an individual, and therefore, many approaches wouldn't work, but then, would work for some. Which meant that many guys would continue for years, to be shooting in the dark as to what might be useful for gaining the attention of women.

I could continue writing about the enormous power that women have in society, due to their ability to decide whether they're interested or not. Or how they've established themselves as sex symbols (instagram, camgirls, modelling etc), and hold the double standard, not to be treated as sex objects.. while benefiting from the social perception of physical beauty (combined with fashion)... but...

There's little point. I've seen this on a few threads recently, where there is no acknowledgment about the place that women have in society (in reality)... except when it comes to excusing them from their active role in how society has developed. Good and bad. Just the reinforcement of the perception of women as being victims of male aggression, and sexism...

FileNotFound

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I feel like I was conditioned to push boundaries growing up. Guys are supposed to make all the first moves. Girls are supposed to be coy otherwise they're labelled "sluts".

This really is a conundrum, we are supposed to judge on more than looks, both male and female.

Yet now we have gone back to first glance...

Dating apps seem the only clean safe solution. Might as well keep this social distancing now.

begbysback

In between all the virtue signalling and political correctness on here we seem to have obtained some understanding that due to the social complexities the male/ female mating ritual is not as simple as some people think it is.

monkeysnapper

God its been so long since I was on the pull so to speak but from my vague memory we used to just talk and have a laugh and read the signs. Simple as that....

I know when I worked in a large company all them years ago employees would always flirt and talk and then when you were out weekend and you could see clearly she didn't have a boyfriend you'd test the waters. .... but again I'd definitely be able to judge if she was interested or not...

There was one girl I worked with who I very often used to go out of my way to talk to and was sure she fancied me and on a night out she made her move to ask me if I wanted a drink and at time I was with mates and played it cool so to speak ..... I really liked her to.... I pretty much gave her brush off..... God I was a total plonker....

Anyway that was enough for her.... it was a once of ticket and I blew it... there was no going back .... I appologised a few times and offered a night out to apologise and was given red card.

Housefree

It's a subjective experience so using the exact same approach with two different women can be perceived as both. Which brings in other factors like her mood at the time, she might decide to just shame you, calling you a creep. Depends how she feels

FileNotFound

Would it make sense to just turn it on its head.

Woman approach men from now on, that way everyone will be happy.

Stan27

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Meh. I remember when I was 19/20 and was just after getting my round in at the bar. I had an armload of pints. When I turned around, this wan who was probably in her 40s spotted her chance and planted me a smooch straight on the lips, and her & her mates burst out laughing. She was in bits too, I wouldn’t have been looking to shift her that night anyway.

It still never dawned on me to write #metoo on my bebo page. I was thinking “I hope the lads didn’t see that” and I looked across and they were in fits laughing.

I think losing that sort of banter in the social scene is a bad thing generally.

One of my friends worked in bars a few years back, and he did cocktail classes for hen nights etc.
Used to get his arse pinched, flirted with regurally. Didnt bother him, but if roles were reversed there would be war lol.

ancapailldorcha

I remain convinced that it's a lot simpler than people are making it out to be. I appreciate that dating does involve a degree of subtlety beyond the ken of many, myself very much included. However, a good rule of thumb is that if you're putting in all the effort then it's not worth it. It's a two person endeavour. Or more if that floats your boat.

In my experience, all that most women want regarding harassment is not to be catcalled, grabbed or leered at. Most women I've talked to about it have experienced these at some point in their lives and none of them started using language like patriarchy while doing so.

Personally, I'm in my thirties and have reached the conclusion that it's simply not worth the effort. Dating is the one thing that's too luck-based IMO for effort and dedication to get much results. For comparison, I enjoy complex strategy games. Over the weekend, I watched about 80 minutes of video on Youtube about the combat system in one of these games which is riddled with forumulae, modifiers & other bonuses. When explained, it's quite simple but there's a lot of it. With dating, nah. I've pretty much lost all interest at this stage.

It is really very simple.
Just don't act like a dick, basically.
Men making a big song and dance now saying they can't even approach women anymore! Such rubbish. What did they do up to now? I'm sure that the majority of men were not sexually harassing women, therefore why would they need to change anything?

Nothing has changed in society, treat all people with respect and there are no issues.
Don't even get.me.started on the rubbish, that women looking for equality has somehow changed the dating scene. It hasn't and if you would prefer women were treated like they were in the 50s, tough luck.

FileNotFound

FileNotFound wrote: »

Would it make sense to just turn it on its head.

Woman approach men from now on, that way everyone will be happy.

Might make women more understanding and patient with men.. although it would need to continue for a few decades, before it bled into other areas, and affected how they behaved in other situations.

Still.. it's probably the best answer to the situation.

Galwayguy35

FileNotFound wrote: »

Would it make sense to just turn it on its head.

Woman approach men from now on, that way everyone will be happy.

Agree.

A few times over the years women I know have said they would never make the first approach to someone they liked because they were afraid of being rejected.

Just glad I'm settled down before it got so complicated

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

Don't dip your pen in company ink is IMO good advice

I don't get this being good universally applicable advice.
You sleep 8 hours/24. You travel to and from work, another 1 hour or more approx at least. Morning and other times calls of nature, shower, etc another 1 hour, cooking food prep eating 1 hour at least, chilling and unwinding into being human 1 hour to be skimpy with allowances, and you are in work for 8 to 9 hours.
If work is deemed ineligible to meet people and the other unlikely hours are totted up - 20 to 21 - that leaves an absolute max of 3 to 4 hours per day where you can rush out try and improbably vibe with a complete stranger in a noisy pub or random park or at choir practise etc.
It would irrationally cut out rather a lot of potential partner meeting to put work off limits.

FileNotFound

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Just glad I'm settled down before it got so complicated

Me and you both haha

Feel sorry for the future offspring, the worlds way more complicated now.

Galwayguy35

bubblypop wrote: »

It is really very simple.
Just don't act like a dick, basically.
Men making a big song and dance now saying they can't even approach women anymore! Such rubbish. What did they do up to now? I'm sure that the majority of men were not sexually harassing women, therefore why would they need to change anything?

Nothing has changed in society, treat all people with respect and there are no issues.
Don't even get.me.started on the rubbish, that women looking for equality has somehow changed the dating scene. It hasn't and if you would prefer women were treated like they were in the 50s, tough luck.

You sound likea very angry person, nobody on this thread is posting anything out of the way and on you come shouting at us.

Housefree

Stan27 wrote: »

One of my friends worked in bars a few years back, and he did cocktail classes for hen nights etc.
Used to get his arse pinched, flirted with regurally. Didnt bother him, but if roles were reversed there would be war lol.

It would only bother me now in the name of fairness, honestly your mate should gather up all the security footage he can of these horrific (your honor) sexual assaults for his claims €€€€€€

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You sound likea very angry person, nobody on this thread is posting anything out of the way and on you come shouting at us.

Who is shouting?
I'm just saying it's not complicated and I don't know why ye are trying to make it out to be!
It's the same as it always was. Don't be a dick, very simple.

THIS IS SHOUTING, fyi.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, think of this way. We once had a traditional society, with clear guidelines on behavior, especially when it came to dating and relationships. However, that society was sexist and unfair, so all guidelines were burned away to free people from repressive rules. Grand.

Except, all people weren't freed. Women were freed, men were encouraged to continue the past roles. Men should continue to protect women. Men should continue being the first to initiate any romantic initiatives. Men should.. etc. It's obvious enough that the gender roles in traditional society, still exist today for men. However, the gender roles for women were sexist and as such, all rules/customs about women should be destroyed. Which, for the most part, except where they wanted to retain them, were. Women wanted to continue being protected, so they were. They still wanted motherhood to be special, so it was. However, a wide range of other gender roles were abolished.

The point is that for the last 30 years, most traditional social expectations for women have been removed. They have the freedom to dress as they wish. To get drunk, and party the same as a man. To be an Ahole, just the same as any other man might be an Ahole... all the while retaining the benefits or advantages that existed in the traditional society.

If you've got even the slightest sense of fairness, you'll be able to see and acknowledge this about western society.

The problem is that when you remove the customs, and rules for society, what do you replace them with? For most western cultures, the clear and specific traditional customs, were replaced with vague ideas of "you should just know". Worse yet, these newer customs were subject to change over time, so it wasn't the case of learning a new set of guidelines and running with them, but needing to update yourself every few years. And when, the expectation is on men to initiate romantic/intimate proceedings, that's going to cause problems... because there are no clear rules and guidelines for them to follow. Just.. "it's obvious, you should just know".

At the same time, those traditional values (which had been replaced) were still being presented in movies, and TV as being important. We received conflicting statements, whereby some would say this behavior is wrong, and condescending, whereas others would describe it as being romantic. Western society has been fed conflicting ideas on what is acceptable and unacceptable for decades, so, where should men learn how to behave?

They learn as they've always learned. By doing. So we all learn how to approach women, by approaching women, trying different things to see what works. In the past, under a traditional system, that was easier since women were confined within gender stereotypes, so a system could be established. However, without that framework, everyone was an individual, and therefore, many approaches wouldn't work, but then, would work for some. Which meant that many guys would continue for years, to be shooting in the dark as to what might be useful for gaining the attention of women.

I could continue writing about the enormous power that women have in society, due to their ability to decide whether they're interested or not. Or how they've established themselves as sex symbols (instagram, camgirls, modelling etc), and hold the double standard, not to be treated as sex objects.. while benefiting from the social perception of physical beauty (combined with fashion)... but...

There's little point. I've seen this on a few threads recently, where there is no acknowledgment about the place that women have in society (in reality)... except when it comes to excusing them from their active role in how society has developed. Good and bad. Just the reinforcement of the perception of women as being victims of male aggression, and sexism...

Can you elaborate on this traditional framework with clear guidelines that we apparently once had? Was there a manual?

Galwayguy35

bubblypop wrote: »

Who is shouting?
I'm just saying it's not complicated and I don't know why ye are trying to make it out to be!
It's the same as it always was. Don't be a dick, very simple.

THIS IS SHOUTING, fyi.

You said we were making a big song and dance and talking rubbish.

Yet if one of us went over to your space on Boards and said something like that it would be a whole different story.

FileNotFound

bubblypop wrote: »

Who is shouting?
I'm just saying it's not complicated and I don't know why ye are trying to make it out to be!
It's the same as it always was. Don't be a dick, very simple.

THIS IS SHOUTING, fyi.

Only not complicated if you set the criteria in your own head though.

The poor chaps now have to mind read it without insulting you haha.

You're comments are quite "Dickish" to be fair. Of course just my opinion :D:D

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you elaborate on this traditional framework with clear guidelines that we apparently once had?

"Courting". Social norms regarding how to approach women, due to the almost regulated way in which men & women usually interacted (dependent on class and culture). Customs and taboos about interpersonal communication. All from a more traditional society.

FileNotFound

Deleted User wrote: »

"Courting". Social norms regarding how to approach women, due to the almost regulated way in which men & women usually interacted (dependent on class and culture). Customs and taboos about interpersonal communication. All from a more traditional society.

You mean the dance hall with the priest watching over your shoulder?

Mind you that would be safer than whats coming.

FileNotFound

FileNotFound wrote: »

You mean the dance hall with the priest watching over your shoulder?

Mind you that would be safer than whats coming.

Sure. That's an example of it.

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You said we were making a big song and dance and talking rubbish.

Yet if one of us went over to your space on Boards and said something like that it would be a whole different story.

Sorry, what's "your space"? Are only certain users welcome here or something?

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Can you elaborate on this traditional framework with clear guidelines that we apparently once had? Was there a manual?

I think you will find that Asian women have the manual, according to that poster!
Much happier ladies in Asia because they don't have the same equality as women in the west

Galwayguy35

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Sorry, what's "your space"? Are only certain users welcome here or something?

Go over to TLL and post "such rubbish" , see the reaction and get back to us.

ancapailldorcha

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You sound likea very angry person, nobody on this thread is posting anything out of the way and on you come shouting at us.

No need to get personal. Don't post like this here again please.

begbysback

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Can you elaborate on this traditional framework with clear guidelines that we apparently once had? Was there a manual?

Back when we could see a woman, hit her on head with club, and drag by the hair back to the cave.

Simple

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Go over to TLL and post "such rubbish" , see the reaction and get back to us.

I don't care, it's a public forum. There's no "your space".

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

Much happier ladies in Asia because they don't have the same equality as women in the west

And yet there are notably more Chinese women in senior management and CEO's of companies than in the "equality" quota driven West. Same for Russia and India. Nations with far more "traditional" views of gender. In nations like Norway which was the first in the world to drive for gender equality quotas in the workplace, the number of senior management women has dropped and is way below those aforementioned nations.

This is the major problem with this subject and the subject of the thread itself. Complex questions don't always pan out with simplistic answers.

Wibbs

begbysback wrote: »

Back when we could see a woman, hit her on head with club, and drag by the hair back to the cave.

Simple

You put it well yourself. "Simple" or rather simplistic.

I would say the problem latterly is again more importation of the worst of the American cultural identity politics stuff which rather than its pretence of progressiveness and equality has only served as a more and more divisive force, certainly at the peripheries. For both men and women. Online dating as a thing hasn't helped either as it takes some basic human interaction out of things, so there's a disconnect there. Again for both men and women. One could also argue the relatively recent importation of American dating culture hasn't helped either and IMHO is not a great fit for Irish culture, or at least it can be a clumsy one.

Tell me how

Wibbs wrote: »

And yet there are notably more Chinese women in senior management and CEO's of companies than in the "equality" quota driven West. Same for Russia and India. Nations with far more "traditional" views of gender. In nations like Norway which was the first in the world to drive for gender equality quotas in the workplace, the number of senior management women has dropped and is way below those aforementioned nations.

This is the major problem with this subject and the subject of the thread itself. Complex questions don't always pan out with simplistic answers.[

Wibbs wrote: »

You put it well yourself. "Simple" or rather simplistic.

I would say the problem latterly is again more importation of the worst of the American cultural identity politics stuff which rather than its pretence of progressiveness and equality has only served as a more and more divisive force, certainly at the peripheries. For both men and women. Online dating as a thing hasn't helped either as it takes some basic human interaction out of things, so there's a disconnect there. Again for both men and women. One could also argue the relatively recent importation of American dating culture hasn't helped either and IMHO is not a great fit for Irish culture, or at least it can be a clumsy one.

Yeah, I think the simplification of arguments on many current affairs topics is definitely something which we see happening.

begbysback

begbysback wrote: »

Back when we could see a woman, hit her on head with club, and drag by the hair back to the cave.

Simple

Fancy shmancy with your club.

Wibbs

Tell me how wrote: »

Yeah, I think the simplification of arguments on many current affairs topics is definitely something which we see happening.

Pity you just emphasised the part you think makes your point, when ignoring the rest doesn't.

Mimon

bubblypop wrote: »

I think you will find that Asian women have the manual, according to that poster!
Much happier ladies in Asia because they don't have the same equality as women in the west

Maybe they are more realistic about what to reasonably expect from a member of the opposite sex. They want a man to act like a man naturally does and not a virtue signaling lapdog like a lot of confused western women seem to want men to be.

(Hopefully I'm not on that posters strange red flag list for giving my opinion)

BartBagwell

BartBagwell wrote: »

I think theres just a lot of incel men around these days who would rather blame everything but themselves for their situations. There is absolutely nothing wrong with women or the dating scene. I've got friends who are not great lookers and they do grand. If you think about guys who have problems getting with girls and are virgins until late in life there are commonalities in these guys. I will say that I think dating apps can make life difficult for lads that are not lookers.

The sad part is that they might be highlighting a problem with society, and few people are willing to listen.

Women have been elevated to the position of being unable to do any wrong, and should men decide that their negative experiences with women have importance in determining how they live their lives, they're dismissed as being incels, or something else.

The fact is that many men from their first forays into dating right through to relationships, encounter women who mistreat them, lie or cheat, or "even" physically/emotionally abuse them. That is a common experience among men.. most guys I have known, who are still single, have had seriously dodgy experiences with the women they've known.

It's sad that their experiences are written off as being somehow unreasonable, but when it comes to the experiences or claims of women, they're automatically given some special status of being of primary concern.

nullzero

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The sad part is that they might be highlighting a problem with society, and few people are willing to listen.

Women have been elevated to the position of being unable to do any wrong, and should men decide that their negative experiences with women have importance in determining how they live their lives, they're dismissed as being incels, or something else.

The fact is that many men from their first forays into dating right through to relationships, encounter women who mistreat them, lie or cheat, or "even" physically/emotionally abuse them. That is a common experience among men.. most guys I have known, who are still single, have had seriously dodgy experiences with the women they've known.

It's sad that their experiences are written off as being somehow unreasonable, but when it comes to the experiences or claims of women, they're automatically given some special status of being of primary concern.

There's a clear double standard with regards to how men and women abuse each other.

Do a simple Google search for "men groping women" your first page of results will be numerous articles from respected publications about the evils of men groping women.

Now Google "women groping men", the results are almost all links to pornography sites.

It's not acceptable for anyone to grope another person, but society deems one to be more important than the other by trivialising the effects of men being groped by women as some sort of fantasy masturbation fuel.

Ultimately we need to accept such behaviour is wrong across the board without making it acceptable in one instance and not the other.

OscarMIlde

Deleted User wrote: »

fact is that many men from their first forays into dating right through to relationships, encounter women who mistreat them, lie or cheat, or "even" physically/emotionally abuse them.

Do you not think that the same applies to women having similar experiences with men? Being an arsehole isn't a trait that is limited to one sex.

OscarMIlde

OscarMIlde wrote: »

Do you not think that the same applies to women having similar experiences with men? Being an arsehole isn't a trait that is limited to one sex.

I don't believe that I suggest it was. If anything, I was pointing out that many women do behave like arseholes towards they men they encounter.

Just because I'm pointing out how many men provide men with negative experiences, doesn't seek to justify or excuse the behavior of men who do the same.

And you kinda proved my point at the last part of that post:

"It's sad that their experiences are written off as being somehow unreasonable, but when it comes to the experiences or claims of women, they're automatically given some special status of being of primary concern."

Rather than deal with the aspect of the negative experiences that many women provide to men, and so, likely affect their development, you decided to point out that men do the same to women... therefore deflecting away from talking about the results on men.