Line between flirting and harrasment?

OscarMIlde

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't believe that I suggest it was. If anything, I was pointing out that many women do behave like arseholes towards they men they encounter.

Just because I'm pointing out how many men provide men with negative experiences, doesn't seek to justify or excuse the behavior of men who do the same.

And you kinda proved my point at the last part of that post:

"It's sad that their experiences are written off as being somehow unreasonable, but when it comes to the experiences or claims of women, they're automatically given some special status of being of primary concern."

Rather than deal with the aspect of the negative experiences that many women provide to men, and so, likely affect their development, you decided to point out that men do the same to women... therefore deflecting away from talking about the results on men.

But I don't think they are given some special status as being of primary concern. At least on an interpersonal level, which seems to be what you are talking about. Both sexes can be treated quite shabbily by the other, I've heard women referred to as desperate or 'pick me's if they are deemed to be trying to hard to attract a man. And that's mild in comparison to how they are maligned if they are deemed to be too promiscuous.

I'm not deflecting about talking about how men can be treated badly, but I find it interesting how you seem to presume that women are somehow exalted, when in real life they aren't. It's a constant theme in your posts, and I'm not sure where you're getting this impression. I can assure you, that as someone who had features which are unattractive (crooked teeth) or unpopular (red hair) when younger, a lot of men went out of their way to specifically let me know how ugly they found me. Attractive women may get preferential treatment and special concern from men, but unattractive women are treated with absolute disdain by some.

OscarMIlde

OscarMIlde wrote: »

But I don't think they are given some special status as being of primary concern. At least on an interpersonal level, which seems to be what you are talking about. Both sexes can be treated quite shabbily by the other, I've heard women referred to as desperate or 'pick me's if they are deemed to be trying to hard to attract a man. And that's mild in comparison to how they are maligned if they are deemed to be too promiscuous.

I think you missed my points earlier if you're looking to draw comparisons about being treated shabbily by either gender. It was merely to draw some attention to the negative behavior of women in shaping the development of men, which tends to be dismissed, while the behavior of men tends to be highlighted.

I'm not deflecting about talking about how men can be treated badly, but I find it interesting how you seem to presume that women are somehow exalted, when in real life they aren't. It's a constant theme in your posts, and I'm not sure where you're getting this impression. I can assure you, that as someone who had features which are unattractive (crooked teeth) or unpopular (red hair) when younger, a lot of men went out of their way to specifically let me know how ugly they found me. Attractive women may get preferential treatment and special concern from men, but unattractive women are treated with absolute disdain by some.

I took a little while to think about your post, and I agree in part.

TBH, it made me think a little about this lockdown and the time I've been spending online, much more than I usually would. In any case, I suspect my views have been.. magnified over the last few months due to reading so much on the topic of the genders.

I'm not bowing out because I think I was wrong. I do think that society has elevated women, as a gender, above men. This can be seen in the general value of women in relation to dating, and the perception that men should, nearly always, approach first. That difference in approaching or not, provides a hefty amount of power in society, since the whole area of attraction, dating, etc bleeds into other parts of social interaction. There are so many double standards being applied to women as a gender.

I am bowing out, because I need to settle my thoughts on the overall topic, and reconsider the various sources for my current attitude. I'll be avoiding these kind of threads for a while. Have fun.

Melzea

Never take no for an answer

Wibbs

Melzea wrote: »

Never take no for an answer

And you sir won moronic post of the day. A high bar indeed.

iptba

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think you missed my points earlier if you're looking to draw comparisons about being treated shabbily by either gender. It was merely to draw some attention to the negative behavior of women in shaping the development of men, which tends to be dismissed, while the behavior of men tends to be highlighted.



I took a little while to think about your post, and I agree in part.

TBH, it made me think a little about this lockdown and the time I've been spending online, much more than I usually would. In any case, I suspect my views have been.. magnified over the last few months due to reading so much on the topic of the genders.

I'm not bowing out because I think I was wrong. I do think that society has elevated women, as a gender, above men. This can be seen in the general value of women in relation to dating, and the perception that men should, nearly always, approach first. That difference in approaching or not, provides a hefty amount of power in society, since the whole area of attraction, dating, etc bleeds into other parts of social interaction. There are so many double standards being applied to women as a gender.

I am bowing out, because I need to settle my thoughts on the overall topic, and reconsider the various sources for my current attitude. I'll be avoiding these kind of threads for a while. Have fun.

Hope you won’t be away too long from posting, klaz: I’ll miss your perspective.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

I am bowing out, because I need to settle my thoughts on the overall topic, and reconsider the various sources for my current attitude. I'll be avoiding these kind of threads for a while. Have fun.

As an aside, I think we'd all be better off if we could learn to moderate our time on the internet and be more judicious about it.

Hijpo

Draw a firm line yourself by completely ignoring women. Do not put yourself in a position to be accused or labelled as a creep because of how a woman feels.

If you are a male then for your own mental health and stability, surround yourself with male friends.

And that is how all the toxicity against all men the last few years makes me feel now.

The fact that all men are not dangerous does not matter, social media is telling all women of all ages that all men are dangerous and because of this men have no hope of ever not being labelled as misogynistic aggressive rapists.

It is too dangerous for the average man to approach the wrong woman no matter how innocent his intentions. Due to how the woman feels, the man can have a label over his head for ever.

Galwayguy35

Hijpo wrote: »

Draw a firm line yourself by completely ignoring women. Do not put yourself in a position to be accused or labelled as a creep because of how a woman feels.

If you are a male then for your own mental health and stability, surround yourself with male friends.

And that is how all the toxicity against all men the last few years makes me feel now.

The fact that all men are not dangerous does not matter, social media is telling all women of all ages that all men are dangerous and because of this men have no hope of ever not being labelled as misogynistic aggressive rapists.

It is too dangerous for the average man to approach the wrong woman no matter how innocent his intentions. Due to how the woman feels, the man can have a label over his head for ever.

That would be a bit extreme cutting ties with the opposite sex altogether, most women in real life are not like the man bashing feminists you see on social media.

MrStuffins

Hijpo wrote: »

Draw a firm line yourself by completely ignoring women. Do not put yourself in a position to be accused or labelled as a creep because of how a woman feels.

If you are a male then for your own mental health and stability, surround yourself with male friends.

And that is how all the toxicity against all men the last few years makes me feel now.

The fact that all men are not dangerous does not matter, social media is telling all women of all ages that all men are dangerous and because of this men have no hope of ever not being labelled as misogynistic aggressive rapists.

It is too dangerous for the average man to approach the wrong woman no matter how innocent his intentions. Due to how the woman feels, the man can have a label over his head for ever.

This is all not only completely over reacting, but is pretty childish and toys-out-of-the-pram stuff.

If you really think that all women are labeling all men "misogynistic aggressive rapists" then you're detached from reality.

It's like some people in this thread have never actually met a woman before and the only ones they think exist are the ones they see tweeting anti-man rubbish on Twitter

Hijpo

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

That would be a bit extreme cutting ties with the opposite sex altogether, most women in real life are not like the man bashing feminists you see on social media.

It's not about the man bashing feminists, it's about the message the trending hashtags are sending to women of all age groups. They are huge generalisations that would not be allowed if it was about any other demographic and anyone who says it's not all men is accused of deflecting and being told they are part of the problem.
It's not just man bashing feminists, it's also other men that do this. You also see it being suggested about boys being made to do concent classes.

Is the line drawn at persistence then?
If you get no reply to a hello do you stop? What of they didn't hear you? If you crack a joke and they smile at you to be polite do you say more? What about the mood the woman is in? How do you open the conversation to gauge if she is okay to talk to? Which women do you apply the above to? We know different woman have different tolerances to different things, where do these apply?

It's just so much easier and safer to say "you know what, f it, I'm avoiding that sh*t show".

Just saw that advert on the TV again showing a man in the park touching a woman up that was doing yoga and another man making excuses for him. This is not normal but is being portrayed as being the norm. Haven't seen the one about the woman making the young fella feel uncomfortable in months and months amazingly.

Hijpo

MrStuffins wrote: »

This is all not only completely over reacting, but is pretty childish and toys-out-of-the-pram stuff.

If you really think that all women are labeling all men "misogynistic aggressive rapists" then you're detached from reality.

It's like some people in this thread have never actually met a woman before and the only ones they think exist are the ones they see tweeting anti-man rubbish on Twitter

Cool, so here i am as a man expressing his concern over something and I'm being told I am over reacting and called childish.
Should I man up? Which type of man do I need to man up to?

ancapailldorcha

Hijpo wrote: »

Cool, so here i am as a man expressing his concern over something and I'm being told I am over reacting and called childish.
Should I man up? Which type of man do I need to man up to?

Frankly, yes.

Work on yourself and what you bring to the table. Take responsibility. Develop discipline and indulge sparingly. Build your body and your mind. Stop filling your head with fatuous drivel from the internet and spend at most 15 minutes a day on Twitter, TikTok, Facebook or whatever.

MrStuffins

Hijpo wrote: »

Cool, so here i am as a man expressing his concern over something and I'm being told I am over reacting and called childish.

Correct

Should I man up? Which type of man do I need to man up to?

This is another example. You have taken what was said and attempted to take it to the extreme.

Maybe spend less time on Twitter and more time with people in real life

Hijpo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Frankly, yes.

Work on yourself and what you bring to the table. Take responsibility. Develop discipline and indulge sparingly. Build your body and your mind. Stop filling your head with fatuous drivel from the internet and spend at most 15 minutes a day on Twitter, TikTok, Facebook or whatever.

Quite content with what I bring to the table thank you. Responsibility for what exactly?
I don't spend time searching these things on twitter there is a specific tab there to see what is trending. Not on TikTok.
The topic is about drawing a line on harassment, i gave my opinion on drawing the line and the reasons for my opinion. Only to be ridiculed rather than a counter argument.

Hijpo

MrStuffins wrote: »

Correct




This is another example. You have taken what was said and attempted to take it to the extreme.

Maybe spend less time on Twitter and more time with people in real life

I was told I was being childish, then i ask what type of man I should man up to. How is that extreme?

MrStuffins

Hijpo wrote: »

I was told I was being childish, then i ask what type of man I should man up to. How is that extreme?

Because you took my criticism and invented the scenario that I was asking you to "man-up", which I clearly did not do.

You seem to have an issue with (deliberately?) misinterpreting a scenario and then painting yourself as some sort of martyr.

At the end of the day, if you wish to not speak to women because you read some feminist profiles on Twitter then that's up to you. But my suggestion to you would be that you spend less time on Twitter as it seems to be warping your interpretation of reality.

ancapailldorcha

Hijpo wrote: »

Quite content with what I bring to the table thank you. Responsibility for what exactly?
I don't spend time searching these things on twitter there is a specific tab there to see what is trending. Not on TikTok.
The topic is about drawing a line on harassment, i gave my opinion on drawing the line and the reasons for my opinion. Only to be ridiculed rather than a counter argument.

You've produced a series of meaningless and baseless claims and then advocating taking quite extreme positions on that very weak basis.

The line is quite simple. Don't harass women. Most men as far as I know get through life without doing it.

Hijpo

MrStuffins wrote: »

Because you took my criticism and invented the scenario that I was asking you to "man-up", which I clearly did not do.

You seem to have an issue with (deliberately?) misinterpreting a scenario and then painting yourself as some sort of martyr.

At the end of the day, if you wish to not speak to women because you read some feminist profiles on Twitter then that's up to you. But my suggestion to you would be that you spend less time on Twitter as it seems to be warping your interpretation of reality.

Incorrect, I "clearly" asked if I should man up, as in would it be your opinion I should man up, would it be a term you would use? I never said you were asking me to man up.

Lol you know what a martyr is, right?

So once again, I didn't read this in some feminist profiles. You seem to have an issue with paying attention to the detail of posts in order to ridicule and belittle opinions. This is what is trending social and mainstream media, the things that can sway opinions dramatically, if its trending then it's not limited to some feminist echo chamber.

Hijpo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You've produced a series of meaningless and baseless claims and then advocating taking quite extreme positions on that very weak basis.

The line is quite simple. Don't harass women. Most men as far as I know get through life without doing it.

The impact of the generalisation of all men is meaningless? Baseless, even though it's a trend?

The definition of harassment seems to be swaying more to how someone feels in that moment ather than a defined action

ancapailldorcha

Hijpo wrote: »

The impact of the generalisation of all men is meaningless? Baseless, even though it's a trend?

The definition of harassment seems to be swaying more to how someone feels in that moment ather than a defined action

What is this based on, exactly? A few tweets? Some clickbait pieces on websites?

Hijpo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What is this based on, exactly? A few tweets? Some clickbait pieces on websites?

A few tweets does not show up as a trending topic on a platform of over 330 million users.

Can I just make it clear that these are not topics that I search for, these are not personalised ads and suggestions provided to me through cookies in my browser.

It's gone the way now that a flirt to one woman is harassment to another. Harassment is a serious accusation these days that is based more and more on how the woman feels than the action.
I think its best to just avoid any kind of situation that might put a man in an awkward situation. Other posters think that is a childish over reaction. That's fine.

ancapailldorcha

Hijpo wrote: »

A few tweets does not show up as a trending topic on a platform of over 330 million users.

Can I just make it clear that these are not topics that I search for, these are not personalised ads and suggestions provided to me through cookies in my browser.

I feel that all men are being destroyed by influential media platforms. Other posters think that is a childish over reaction. That's fine.

I don't care about what's trending. That's not a good metric. I think you've conjured up a chimera for some reason and then decided to live your life trying to avoid it.

It's your life but there's enough to worry about outside social media without adding an illusory mob to the mix.

Hijpo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't care about what's trending. That's not a good metric. I think you've conjured up a chimera for some reason and then decided to live your life trying to avoid it.

It's your life but there's enough to worry about outside social media without adding an illusory mob to the mix.

See, that's a much more acceptable reply than some of the others.

MrStuffins

Hijpo wrote: »

This is what is trending social and mainstream media, the things that can sway opinions dramatically, if its trending then it's not limited to some feminist echo chamber.

And it's obviously swayed your opinion. But don't worry, you're not alone here.

There are a good few people these days who get so caught up in what's "trending" and what they read on social media that they let it form their world and control their life. Like those people in town yesterday protesting the lizard people. They picked this up online, let it overshadow their thoughts, and went to the extreme of wearing t-shirts on O'Connell Street saying that reptilians are trying to eat our children.

They're living in a world created inside their own heads, which is molded by what they see as "trending" on social media.

They need to close their laptops and get some fresh air. The real world is different to the ones people will tell you about on social media. The real world is not out to get you

Markus Antonius

sydthebeat wrote: »

If you can't recognise when the approach is unwanted, you shouldn't have approached in the first instance.

This is the most ridiculous comment I've read in a long time, if not ever.

Hijpo

MrStuffins wrote: »

And it's obviously swayed your opinion. But don't worry, you're not alone here.

There are a good few people these days who get so caught up in what's "trending" and what they read on social media that they let it form their world and control their life. Like those people in town yesterday protesting the lizard people. They picked this up online, let it overshadow their thoughts, and went to the extreme of wearing t-shirts on O'Connell Street saying that reptilians are trying to eat our children.

They're living in a world created inside their own heads, which is molded by what they see as "trending" on social media.

They need to close their laptops and get some fresh air. The real world is different to the ones people will tell you about on social media. The real world is not out to get you

All well and good but no one can or is going to try appease the believers of lizard people. You seem to be adamant that anything online is waffle and should be disregarded. Given that the platform has 330 million users world wide, the trending of issues is a decent gauge of public opinion when there is no specific polls to go on.

MrStuffins

Hijpo wrote: »

Given that the platform has 330 million users world wide, the trending of issues is a decent gauge of public opinion when there is no specific polls to go on.

And over 23 million people bought Westlife albums despite the fact that they're atrocious.

You can spend your life making decisions based on the online opinions of others all you like. You do you.

My advice, however, would be to meet real people, have real experiences, and base your opinions and actions off that!

But again, you do you!

Hijpo

MrStuffins wrote: »

And over 23 million people bought Westlife albums despite the fact that they're atrocious.

Touché

Invidious

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

That would be a bit extreme cutting ties with the opposite sex altogether, most women in real life are not like the man bashing feminists you see on social media.

Exactly.

It's fairly easy to filter out the woke/SWJ/radical feminist women. You can spot them coming a mile off. They have more red flags than a Cork all-Ireland final.

But I'd assume the 80/20 rule applies here, except it's more like a 90/10 rule -- 10% of women create 90% of the misandrist vitriol on sites like Twitter. But they certainly don't represent all women, by any means.

The average non-crazy woman appreciates a man who is willing to start with conversation, shows an interest in her as a person, and isn't angling for sex right off the bat.

More men could do with mastering the art of flirtation -- by which I don't mean pick-up artistry, but the art of communicating and gauging romantic interest in social encounters without making the other party feel threatened, harassed, or creeped out.

Invidious

Invidious wrote: »

Exactly.

It's fairly easy to filter out the woke/SWJ/radical feminist women. You can spot them coming a mile off. They have more red flags than a Cork all-Ireland final.

But I'd assume the 80/20 rule applies here, except it's more like a 90/10 rule -- 10% of women create 90% of the misandrist vitriol on sites like Twitter. But they certainly don't represent all women, by any means.

The average non-crazy woman appreciates a man who is willing to start with conversation, shows an interest in her as a person, and isn't angling for sex right off the bat.

More men could do with mastering the art of flirtation -- by which I don't mean pick-up artistry, but the art of communicating and gauging romantic interest in social encounters without making the other party feel threatened, harassed, or creeped out.

By the same rationale though you could put a 99/1 rule in where the majority of men do abide by the art of flirtation yet the 99 are being told it's up to them to pick up for the 1% and yet all men are being called into question

Tig98

https://youtu.be/89xbNkCn41E

Seems fairly relevant

FAILSAFE 00

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

My wife turned me down 3 times before going on a date with me. She's still around and he have 2 kids.

You monster :P

Invidious

Deleted User wrote: »

By the same rationale though you could put a 99/1 rule in where the majority of men do abide by the art of flirtation yet the 99 are being told it's up to them to pick up for the 1% and yet all men are being called into question

I have to believe that real-world women (as opposed to women on Twitter) understand that they do not have issues with the vast majority of men. Most women enjoy being complimented and flirted with ... it's a natural part of life that has only been called into question recently by a rabid misandrist fringe hell-bent on radically altering relations between the sexes.

Grey Fox

nicholasIII wrote: »

The Sarah Evards case and the question on Current Affairs made me think of this. Many posts were people saying that men should be aware of what they say/do around women as even well meaning mean can make women feel uncomfortable with their comments/behavior.

So I was wondering, since people expect men to be aware of how they treat women but at the same time expect men to approach women first, when is it okay to flirt with a women and when does it cross into unwanted behavior?

If the woman is attracted to the guy, it's flirting. If the woman thinks the guy is unattractive then its unwanted behaviour.