Line between flirting and harrasment?

FileNotFound

FileNotFound wrote: »

Would it make sense to just turn it on its head.

Woman approach men from now on, that way everyone will be happy.

Might make women more understanding and patient with men.. although it would need to continue for a few decades, before it bled into other areas, and affected how they behaved in other situations.

Still.. it's probably the best answer to the situation.

Galwayguy35

FileNotFound wrote: »

Would it make sense to just turn it on its head.

Woman approach men from now on, that way everyone will be happy.

Agree.

A few times over the years women I know have said they would never make the first approach to someone they liked because they were afraid of being rejected.

Just glad I'm settled down before it got so complicated

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

Don't dip your pen in company ink is IMO good advice

I don't get this being good universally applicable advice.
You sleep 8 hours/24. You travel to and from work, another 1 hour or more approx at least. Morning and other times calls of nature, shower, etc another 1 hour, cooking food prep eating 1 hour at least, chilling and unwinding into being human 1 hour to be skimpy with allowances, and you are in work for 8 to 9 hours.
If work is deemed ineligible to meet people and the other unlikely hours are totted up - 20 to 21 - that leaves an absolute max of 3 to 4 hours per day where you can rush out try and improbably vibe with a complete stranger in a noisy pub or random park or at choir practise etc.
It would irrationally cut out rather a lot of potential partner meeting to put work off limits.

FileNotFound

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Just glad I'm settled down before it got so complicated

Me and you both haha

Feel sorry for the future offspring, the worlds way more complicated now.

Galwayguy35

bubblypop wrote: »

It is really very simple.
Just don't act like a dick, basically.
Men making a big song and dance now saying they can't even approach women anymore! Such rubbish. What did they do up to now? I'm sure that the majority of men were not sexually harassing women, therefore why would they need to change anything?

Nothing has changed in society, treat all people with respect and there are no issues.
Don't even get.me.started on the rubbish, that women looking for equality has somehow changed the dating scene. It hasn't and if you would prefer women were treated like they were in the 50s, tough luck.

You sound likea very angry person, nobody on this thread is posting anything out of the way and on you come shouting at us.

Housefree

Stan27 wrote: »

One of my friends worked in bars a few years back, and he did cocktail classes for hen nights etc.
Used to get his arse pinched, flirted with regurally. Didnt bother him, but if roles were reversed there would be war lol.

It would only bother me now in the name of fairness, honestly your mate should gather up all the security footage he can of these horrific (your honor) sexual assaults for his claims €€€€€€

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You sound likea very angry person, nobody on this thread is posting anything out of the way and on you come shouting at us.

Who is shouting?
I'm just saying it's not complicated and I don't know why ye are trying to make it out to be!
It's the same as it always was. Don't be a dick, very simple.

THIS IS SHOUTING, fyi.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, think of this way. We once had a traditional society, with clear guidelines on behavior, especially when it came to dating and relationships. However, that society was sexist and unfair, so all guidelines were burned away to free people from repressive rules. Grand.

Except, all people weren't freed. Women were freed, men were encouraged to continue the past roles. Men should continue to protect women. Men should continue being the first to initiate any romantic initiatives. Men should.. etc. It's obvious enough that the gender roles in traditional society, still exist today for men. However, the gender roles for women were sexist and as such, all rules/customs about women should be destroyed. Which, for the most part, except where they wanted to retain them, were. Women wanted to continue being protected, so they were. They still wanted motherhood to be special, so it was. However, a wide range of other gender roles were abolished.

The point is that for the last 30 years, most traditional social expectations for women have been removed. They have the freedom to dress as they wish. To get drunk, and party the same as a man. To be an Ahole, just the same as any other man might be an Ahole... all the while retaining the benefits or advantages that existed in the traditional society.

If you've got even the slightest sense of fairness, you'll be able to see and acknowledge this about western society.

The problem is that when you remove the customs, and rules for society, what do you replace them with? For most western cultures, the clear and specific traditional customs, were replaced with vague ideas of "you should just know". Worse yet, these newer customs were subject to change over time, so it wasn't the case of learning a new set of guidelines and running with them, but needing to update yourself every few years. And when, the expectation is on men to initiate romantic/intimate proceedings, that's going to cause problems... because there are no clear rules and guidelines for them to follow. Just.. "it's obvious, you should just know".

At the same time, those traditional values (which had been replaced) were still being presented in movies, and TV as being important. We received conflicting statements, whereby some would say this behavior is wrong, and condescending, whereas others would describe it as being romantic. Western society has been fed conflicting ideas on what is acceptable and unacceptable for decades, so, where should men learn how to behave?

They learn as they've always learned. By doing. So we all learn how to approach women, by approaching women, trying different things to see what works. In the past, under a traditional system, that was easier since women were confined within gender stereotypes, so a system could be established. However, without that framework, everyone was an individual, and therefore, many approaches wouldn't work, but then, would work for some. Which meant that many guys would continue for years, to be shooting in the dark as to what might be useful for gaining the attention of women.

I could continue writing about the enormous power that women have in society, due to their ability to decide whether they're interested or not. Or how they've established themselves as sex symbols (instagram, camgirls, modelling etc), and hold the double standard, not to be treated as sex objects.. while benefiting from the social perception of physical beauty (combined with fashion)... but...

There's little point. I've seen this on a few threads recently, where there is no acknowledgment about the place that women have in society (in reality)... except when it comes to excusing them from their active role in how society has developed. Good and bad. Just the reinforcement of the perception of women as being victims of male aggression, and sexism...

Can you elaborate on this traditional framework with clear guidelines that we apparently once had? Was there a manual?

Galwayguy35

bubblypop wrote: »

Who is shouting?
I'm just saying it's not complicated and I don't know why ye are trying to make it out to be!
It's the same as it always was. Don't be a dick, very simple.

THIS IS SHOUTING, fyi.

You said we were making a big song and dance and talking rubbish.

Yet if one of us went over to your space on Boards and said something like that it would be a whole different story.

FileNotFound

bubblypop wrote: »

Who is shouting?
I'm just saying it's not complicated and I don't know why ye are trying to make it out to be!
It's the same as it always was. Don't be a dick, very simple.

THIS IS SHOUTING, fyi.

Only not complicated if you set the criteria in your own head though.

The poor chaps now have to mind read it without insulting you haha.

You're comments are quite "Dickish" to be fair. Of course just my opinion :D:D

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you elaborate on this traditional framework with clear guidelines that we apparently once had?

"Courting". Social norms regarding how to approach women, due to the almost regulated way in which men & women usually interacted (dependent on class and culture). Customs and taboos about interpersonal communication. All from a more traditional society.

FileNotFound

Deleted User wrote: »

"Courting". Social norms regarding how to approach women, due to the almost regulated way in which men & women usually interacted (dependent on class and culture). Customs and taboos about interpersonal communication. All from a more traditional society.

You mean the dance hall with the priest watching over your shoulder?

Mind you that would be safer than whats coming.

FileNotFound

FileNotFound wrote: »

You mean the dance hall with the priest watching over your shoulder?

Mind you that would be safer than whats coming.

Sure. That's an example of it.

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You said we were making a big song and dance and talking rubbish.

Yet if one of us went over to your space on Boards and said something like that it would be a whole different story.

Sorry, what's "your space"? Are only certain users welcome here or something?

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Can you elaborate on this traditional framework with clear guidelines that we apparently once had? Was there a manual?

I think you will find that Asian women have the manual, according to that poster!
Much happier ladies in Asia because they don't have the same equality as women in the west

Galwayguy35

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Sorry, what's "your space"? Are only certain users welcome here or something?

Go over to TLL and post "such rubbish" , see the reaction and get back to us.

ancapailldorcha

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You sound likea very angry person, nobody on this thread is posting anything out of the way and on you come shouting at us.

No need to get personal. Don't post like this here again please.

begbysback

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Can you elaborate on this traditional framework with clear guidelines that we apparently once had? Was there a manual?

Back when we could see a woman, hit her on head with club, and drag by the hair back to the cave.

Simple

Galwayguy35

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Go over to TLL and post "such rubbish" , see the reaction and get back to us.

I don't care, it's a public forum. There's no "your space".

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

Much happier ladies in Asia because they don't have the same equality as women in the west

And yet there are notably more Chinese women in senior management and CEO's of companies than in the "equality" quota driven West. Same for Russia and India. Nations with far more "traditional" views of gender. In nations like Norway which was the first in the world to drive for gender equality quotas in the workplace, the number of senior management women has dropped and is way below those aforementioned nations.

This is the major problem with this subject and the subject of the thread itself. Complex questions don't always pan out with simplistic answers.

Wibbs

begbysback wrote: »

Back when we could see a woman, hit her on head with club, and drag by the hair back to the cave.

Simple

You put it well yourself. "Simple" or rather simplistic.

I would say the problem latterly is again more importation of the worst of the American cultural identity politics stuff which rather than its pretence of progressiveness and equality has only served as a more and more divisive force, certainly at the peripheries. For both men and women. Online dating as a thing hasn't helped either as it takes some basic human interaction out of things, so there's a disconnect there. Again for both men and women. One could also argue the relatively recent importation of American dating culture hasn't helped either and IMHO is not a great fit for Irish culture, or at least it can be a clumsy one.

Tell me how

Wibbs wrote: »

And yet there are notably more Chinese women in senior management and CEO's of companies than in the "equality" quota driven West. Same for Russia and India. Nations with far more "traditional" views of gender. In nations like Norway which was the first in the world to drive for gender equality quotas in the workplace, the number of senior management women has dropped and is way below those aforementioned nations.

This is the major problem with this subject and the subject of the thread itself. Complex questions don't always pan out with simplistic answers.[

Wibbs wrote: »

You put it well yourself. "Simple" or rather simplistic.

I would say the problem latterly is again more importation of the worst of the American cultural identity politics stuff which rather than its pretence of progressiveness and equality has only served as a more and more divisive force, certainly at the peripheries. For both men and women. Online dating as a thing hasn't helped either as it takes some basic human interaction out of things, so there's a disconnect there. Again for both men and women. One could also argue the relatively recent importation of American dating culture hasn't helped either and IMHO is not a great fit for Irish culture, or at least it can be a clumsy one.

Yeah, I think the simplification of arguments on many current affairs topics is definitely something which we see happening.

begbysback

begbysback wrote: »

Back when we could see a woman, hit her on head with club, and drag by the hair back to the cave.

Simple

Fancy shmancy with your club.

Wibbs

Tell me how wrote: »

Yeah, I think the simplification of arguments on many current affairs topics is definitely something which we see happening.

Pity you just emphasised the part you think makes your point, when ignoring the rest doesn't.

Mimon

bubblypop wrote: »

I think you will find that Asian women have the manual, according to that poster!
Much happier ladies in Asia because they don't have the same equality as women in the west

Maybe they are more realistic about what to reasonably expect from a member of the opposite sex. They want a man to act like a man naturally does and not a virtue signaling lapdog like a lot of confused western women seem to want men to be.

(Hopefully I'm not on that posters strange red flag list for giving my opinion)

BartBagwell

BartBagwell wrote: »

I think theres just a lot of incel men around these days who would rather blame everything but themselves for their situations. There is absolutely nothing wrong with women or the dating scene. I've got friends who are not great lookers and they do grand. If you think about guys who have problems getting with girls and are virgins until late in life there are commonalities in these guys. I will say that I think dating apps can make life difficult for lads that are not lookers.

The sad part is that they might be highlighting a problem with society, and few people are willing to listen.

Women have been elevated to the position of being unable to do any wrong, and should men decide that their negative experiences with women have importance in determining how they live their lives, they're dismissed as being incels, or something else.

The fact is that many men from their first forays into dating right through to relationships, encounter women who mistreat them, lie or cheat, or "even" physically/emotionally abuse them. That is a common experience among men.. most guys I have known, who are still single, have had seriously dodgy experiences with the women they've known.

It's sad that their experiences are written off as being somehow unreasonable, but when it comes to the experiences or claims of women, they're automatically given some special status of being of primary concern.

nullzero

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The sad part is that they might be highlighting a problem with society, and few people are willing to listen.

Women have been elevated to the position of being unable to do any wrong, and should men decide that their negative experiences with women have importance in determining how they live their lives, they're dismissed as being incels, or something else.

The fact is that many men from their first forays into dating right through to relationships, encounter women who mistreat them, lie or cheat, or "even" physically/emotionally abuse them. That is a common experience among men.. most guys I have known, who are still single, have had seriously dodgy experiences with the women they've known.

It's sad that their experiences are written off as being somehow unreasonable, but when it comes to the experiences or claims of women, they're automatically given some special status of being of primary concern.

There's a clear double standard with regards to how men and women abuse each other.

Do a simple Google search for "men groping women" your first page of results will be numerous articles from respected publications about the evils of men groping women.

Now Google "women groping men", the results are almost all links to pornography sites.

It's not acceptable for anyone to grope another person, but society deems one to be more important than the other by trivialising the effects of men being groped by women as some sort of fantasy masturbation fuel.

Ultimately we need to accept such behaviour is wrong across the board without making it acceptable in one instance and not the other.

OscarMIlde

Deleted User wrote: »

fact is that many men from their first forays into dating right through to relationships, encounter women who mistreat them, lie or cheat, or "even" physically/emotionally abuse them.

Do you not think that the same applies to women having similar experiences with men? Being an arsehole isn't a trait that is limited to one sex.

OscarMIlde

OscarMIlde wrote: »

Do you not think that the same applies to women having similar experiences with men? Being an arsehole isn't a trait that is limited to one sex.

I don't believe that I suggest it was. If anything, I was pointing out that many women do behave like arseholes towards they men they encounter.

Just because I'm pointing out how many men provide men with negative experiences, doesn't seek to justify or excuse the behavior of men who do the same.

And you kinda proved my point at the last part of that post:

"It's sad that their experiences are written off as being somehow unreasonable, but when it comes to the experiences or claims of women, they're automatically given some special status of being of primary concern."

Rather than deal with the aspect of the negative experiences that many women provide to men, and so, likely affect their development, you decided to point out that men do the same to women... therefore deflecting away from talking about the results on men.