Fire Damage in a rental tenancy

topdecko

so had a close escape this morning when my young son decided to play with a lighter he got his hands on. Very scary. Make sure everyone has fire blanket or extinguisher on each level of house and know what to do . my OH managed to bundle up the bedding in some towels and get it into bathroom to extinguish it. Definitely most frightening thing i have experienced.

he set fire to some bedding and it burned the carpet in his room, some small embers fell on the landing and then the bath itself was damaged by the materials. these all need replacing.

We get on well with the landlord and have looked after house well till this point.
I have offered to cover costs and am sure it will hurt me in the pocket but seems the reasonable thing to do.
I suppose my query is where i stand legally. If i was not in a position to pay or there was more significant damage then it would become an insurance job i presume. At what point would it trigger the landlord making insurance vs me paying for the damage.

ted1

Glad to hear everyone is alright. Lost a classmate to a house fire and fear them since then.

As a landlord, if it’s small damage I’d expect the tenant to cover, if it’s beyond their means I’d go with insurance, I’d be p’ed off bit would fully understand that it was not intentional.

Dav010

ted1 wrote: »

Glad to hear everyone is alright. Lost a classmate to a house fire and fear them since then.

As a landlord, if it’s small damage I’d expect the tenant to cover, if it’s beyond their means I’d go with insurance, I’d be p’ed off bit would fully understand that it was not intentional.

I’d expect the tenant to cover any excess on the insurance claim.

Baby01032012

I’d say the excess is greater than the damage done.

You sound reasonable. As does landlord. You caused the damage so you need to pay for it.

ted1

Dav010 wrote: »

I’d expect the tenant to cover any excess on the insurance claim.

Any costs would be tax deductible for the landlord

Bass Reeves

ted1 wrote: »

Any costs would be tax deductible for the landlord

Yes but premiums will go up. As well insurance company will deduct wear and tear on carpets and similar items

Baby01032012

ted1 wrote: »

Any costs would be tax deductible for the landlord

Better to have no deductible at all as landlord didn’t cause it

ted1

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Better to have no deductible at all as landlord didn’t cause it

Of course it’d be better but Some landlords are understanding. Sh1t happens

PetitPois89

Wouldn’t expect Landlord to cover it if they didn’t cause it.

Standard tenancy agreements contain a covenant that tenants are responsible for damage caused by fire (obviously the circumstances that caused the fire in the first instance make a difference i.e. if it was caused by faulty wiring/no fault of the tenant then Landlord should cover it)

ted1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes but premiums will go up. As well insurance company will deduct wear and tear on carpets and similar items

All tax deductions

ted1

PetitPois89 wrote: »

Wouldn’t expect Landlord to cover it if they didn’t cause it.

Standard tenancy agreements contain a covenant that tenants are responsible for damage caused by fire (obviously the circumstances that caused the fire in the first instance make a difference i.e. if it was caused by faulty wiring/no fault of the tenant then Landlord should cover it)

You think a tenant can pay 250k+ rebuild fee?

Bass Reeves

ted1 wrote: »

All tax deductions

Yes but excess paid by tenant to Landlord is treated as income. None of this will cover extra costs to LL. If he is willing to put it through insurance and allow tenant pay excess it's a more than fair outcome. The way you posted you indicated the LL was winning

ted1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes but excess paid by tenant to Landlord is treated as income. None of this will cover extra costs to LL. If he is willing to put it through insurance and allow tenant pay excess it's a more than fair outcome. The way you posted you indicated the LL was winning

No one wins in this situation mental stress and drama in dealing with it is crazy

PetitPois89

ted1 wrote: »

You think a tenant can pay 250k+ rebuild fee?

Never said that. Landlords are legally obliged to have their rental properties insured, obviously if the damage was big then it should go through insurance.

But in instances where the damage is maybe equivalent to 1/2 months rent and caused due to tenants negligence then its only right that a tenant should cover the cost

Bass Reeves

ted1 wrote: »

No one wins in this situation mental stress and drama in dealing with it is crazy

Ya but you gave the impression that it being tax deductible ment it cost the LL nothing. A cost is a cost just because you write it off against tax doses not mean it costs you nothing

ted1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Ya but you gave the impression that it being tax deductible ment it cost the LL nothing. A cost is a cost just because you write it off against tax doses not mean it costs you nothing

Do it right and it doesn’t, keep your personnel and rental property accounts different. If there’s no cash in the rental account to cover repairs then use the credit union.
All repairs are deductible. In this case you are paying cu rather than revenue

I’ve never been out of pocket doing repairs. Most recent being a 5k bill for a heating system

Bass Reeves

ted1 wrote: »

Do it right and it doesn’t, keep your personnel and rental property accounts different. If there’s no cash in the rental account to cover repairs then use the credit union.
All repairs are deductible. In this case you are paying cu rather than revenue

I’ve never been out of pocket doing repairs. Most recent being a 5k bill for a heating system

It has nothing to do with cash not being on or not being in the rental account. You gave that it being tax deductible was win win for the LL. You gave the impression it cost him nothing. In any damages situation the LL seldom wins. The more the damage the more he loses.

Dav010

ted1 wrote: »

Sh1t happens

I’m not sure fire in a bedroom falls into that category.

3DataModem

topdecko wrote: »

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At what point would it trigger the landlord making insurance vs me paying for the damage.

There is no concept in law of an insurance company being liable... it is either the tenant or the landlord. If the landlord chooses to make a claim that is up to them. You've no entitlement to push the landlord to make a claim to mitigate your cost.

However between reasonable people there are ways to sort this. If the carpet and bath were brand new, as a tenant I'd expect to return them to that state (or live with the damage till the end of the tenancy). If the carpet was 5 years old and the bath was already pretty worn, then I'd be suggesting to the landlord that we split the cost.

Bear in mind your other responsibilities - if you damage the bath, decide not to fix it, and then use it and it leaks downstairs, then things get complicated.

JimmyVik

Can a tenant get fire insurance?

Bass Reeves

JimmyVik wrote: »

Can a tenant get fire insurance?

Not to the structure anyway. They can insure there own goods in the house and there is usually LL insurance only covers structure and his fixed contents. Even in this case it is quite possible.insurance company might not cover the damage as the fire was started by a resident. It being a child that did it might allow that claim but it might not

dennyk

If the fire was caused by you directly (e.g. not from some electrical fault in the building's wiring or a lightning strike or a third party landing a firework on the roof or something else outside of your control), then you would generally be legally responsible for the damages. Even if your landlord goes through their property insurance, there is a chance that their insurance company could then come after you to recover what they paid out. Your own renter's insurance (which you do have, I hope; if not, that's a mistake you need to correct ASAP to protect yourself in case of any future incidents) will often have liability coverage which might pay for damage to another party's property caused by an accidental fire, though. You should check your rental insurance policy to see what it covers. Whether you want to make a claim on your policy or just pay for the damage out of pocket is up to you, though.

crossmolinalad

ted1 wrote: »

You think a tenant can pay 250k+ rebuild fee?

His liability insurance can cover it if he has one

JimmyVik

dennyk wrote: »

If the fire was caused by you directly (e.g. not from some electrical fault in the building's wiring or a lightning strike or a third party landing a firework on the roof or something else outside of your control), then you would generally be legally responsible for the damages. Even if your landlord goes through their property insurance, there is a chance that their insurance company could then come after you to recover what they paid out. Your own renter's insurance (which you do have, I hope; if not, that's a mistake you need to correct ASAP to protect yourself in case of any future incidents) will often have liability coverage which might pay for damage to another party's property caused by an accidental fire, though. You should check your rental insurance policy to see what it covers. Whether you want to make a claim on your policy or just pay for the damage out of pocket is up to you, though.

Thats what I was thinking.
We had a neighbor whos tree fell in in a storm and damaged the side of another neighbors hour.
The one whose house was damaged had to claim off his own insurance policy. His insurance company paid up. Then that insurance company went after the tree owners insurance. They paid up. And both ended up with claims on their policies.

Mrs OBumble

ted1 wrote: »

Sh1t happens

Sh1t happens is a fire caused by an electrical fault or lightening strike. Or a flood cos a pipe bursts.

Personal responsibility is a parent letting a kid get hold of a lighter or letting the bath overflow.

The landlord's insurance will pay either way. But if the damage was caused by someone's negligence, they will pursue that someone, too.

TheChizler

ted1 wrote: »

Do it right and it doesn’t, keep your personnel and rental property accounts different. If there’s no cash in the rental account to cover repairs then use the credit union.
All repairs are deductible. In this case you are paying cu rather than revenue

I’ve never been out of pocket doing repairs. Most recent being a 5k bill for a heating system

I don't get this, at best it being tax deductable gives you a roughly 50% discount on the cost to your pocket, no matter how you divide personal and business accounts. Unless you're like my brother who thought a tax deductable business expense meant you could just knock the cost of an iPhone X off your total tax bill, that misunderstanding was corrected very quickly.

JimmyVik

TheChizler wrote: »

I don't get this, at best it being tax deductable gives you a roughly 50% discount on the cost to your pocket, no matter how you divide personal and business accounts. Unless you're like my brother who thought a tax deductable business expense meant you could just knock the cost of an iPhone X off your total tax bill, that misunderstanding was corrected very quickly.

Most people dont actually understand how tax write-offs work. They think someone is getting free money.

Bass Reeves

If the tenant has been there long term ( over three years) and in general has been a good tenant most LL's will try there best to sort this out as cheap and as I say as possible. However the assumption that just because it's a tax deductible expense it costs the LL nothing is not true. Any money paid by the tenant to cover the cost is considered income. As well things like carpets are deprecated not a straight write off

topdecko

Thanks for replies.
Will sort out with LL and pony up.
Multiple lessons learned from this event. We are in process of moving and hence things a bit chaotic. We let our guard down for a minute and this is what ensues.
Haven't got renters insurance - had for 8 years in UK but never used!! hence let it lapse when moved back. First problem to be remedied.
Advice to everyone would be to have plan re: fire - have a blanket or extinguisher close at hand ie on first and ground floor and check fire alarm religiously. No one injured by the grace of God and a new found respect for fire and the speed at which it develops.

And obvs don't let your kids mess with lighters..

Baby01032012

Having small children opens your eyes to things you’d never imagine could happen.
Something in your favour though. Landlord is legally required to provide fire extinguisher and blanket. If those were there it would have reduced the damage caused I’d imagine.

mrslancaster

Baby01032012 wrote: »

.....Something in your favour though. Landlord is legally required to provide fire extinguisher and blanket. If those were there it would have reduced the damage caused I’d imagine.

Thought they were normally in the kitchen. Is the landlord required to put a second set on the first floor as well?