It's about time we had a compulsory military service

Vestiapx

Risteard81 wrote: »

It's simply not feasible to mandate military service in the Free State army which many do not recognise.

They are the lads in the green combats.

Jim2007

TheBoyConor wrote: »

The reason many Irish people have little or no respect for the Defense forces is because they are descended from the Free Stater National Army, which after the treaty carried on the work of the Brits, doing their bidding on behalf of the Crown to suppress those who held steering enough convictions to hold out and fight for the Irish Republic.

Ask most of the kids like to sign up today and they would not have a clue what you are talking about.

tayto lover

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Twud in me bollcoks, these lads need serious professional help, many have probably needed it since childhood

Maybe we should just pander to them then.

Wanderer78

tayto lover wrote:

Maybe we should just pander to them then.

Of course not, maybe we should invest in preventative measures, rather than going full retard with disciplinary action

whisky_galore

Risteard81 wrote: »

It's simply not feasible to mandate military service in the Free State army which many do not recognise.

A handful of fat lads in black bomber jackets wearing Easter lily badges.

corner of hells

TheBoyConor wrote: »

The reason many Irish people have little or no respect for the Defense forces is because they are descended from the Free Stater National Army, which after the treaty carried on the work of the Brits, doing their bidding on behalf of the Crown to suppress those who held steering enough convictions to hold out and fight for the Irish Republic.

Wouldn't it be great if there was an alternative army , maybe called the Republican Irish Army or the Army of the Republic of Ireland.

JustAThought

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Of course not, maybe we should invest in preventative measures, rather than going full retard with disciplinary action

oh please - we should shut down all the bodies that have funded to ‘help’ them as they clearly have just been a massive waste of taxpayer funds.

Our Irish army somehow has an annual budget of close to TWO BILLION euro yet Incan barely point to any functioning service it does for the IRISH public. And I don’t mean fannying about on peacekeeping services for double their normal salary.

What do the Irish army do??? Not the navy - the army? In Ireland??? For this two billion annual budget???

And regarding the army of scrotes by Ll
means take them and put them in huts in Laois or somewhere far away and give them a dole and the weekends off and make the get up at 8am and dig roads and peel & boil potatoes for meals on wheels and scrub clean hospitals and litterpick and be a service to the country.

Of course the concept of delivering service for taxpayer money or a free house is such an outrage to the great unwashed it will go down like a kebab at a vegetarian wedding - but sure who cares. Things are so bad how can they get worse?

Maybe the Irish army could stop and think about what value they deliver to the taxpayer too - lets face it - the councils have to ask the unions permission before they are allowed ask them to even help out in emergencies - its a absolute joke and someone with a pair of balls ( or otherwise) should address it.

whisky_galore

TheBoyConor wrote: »

The reason many Irish people have little or no respect for the Defense forces is because they are descended from the Free Stater National Army, which after the treaty carried on the work of the Brits, doing their bidding on behalf of the Crown to suppress those who held steering enough convictions to hold out and fight for the Irish Republic.

People who live in the past you mean.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Of course not, maybe we should invest in preventative measures, rather than going full retard with disciplinary action

JustAThought wrote: »

oh please - we should shut down all the bodies that have funded to ‘help’ them as they clearly have just been a massive waste of taxpayer funds.

Our Irish army somehow has an annual budget of close to TWO BILLION euro yet Incan barely point to any functioning service it does for the IRISH public. And I don’t mean fannying about on peacekeeping services for double their normal salary.

What do the Irish army do??? Not the navy - the army? In Ireland??? For this two billion annual budget???

And regarding the army of scrotes by Ll
means take them and put them in huts in Laois or somewhere far away and give them a dole and the weekends off and make the get up at 8am and dig roads and peel & boil potatoes for meals on wheels and scrub clean hospitals and litterpick and be a service to the country.

Of course the concept of delivering service for taxpayer money or a free house is such an outrage to the great unwashed it will go down like a kebab at a vegetarian wedding - but sure who cares. Things are so bad how can they get worse?

Maybe the Irish army could stop and think about what value they deliver to the taxpayer too - lets face it - the councils have to ask the unions permission before they are allowed ask them to even help out in emergencies - its a absolute joke and someone with a pair of balls ( or otherwise) should address it.

..............

weisses

peasant wrote: »

Take it from one who had to do it, compulsory military service does absolutely nothing to improve your life ..other than perhaps turn you into an alcoholic.

Pointless orders, stupid chains of command, endless boredom, no sense of self and no sense of the greater good either, waste of time and money, nothing useful ever done.

Pointless ..unless you really want to become a soldier ...but you can do that without it being compulsory.

I had the opposite experience ...a lot had to do with the kind of unit someone was placed

tayto lover

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Of course not, maybe we should invest in preventative measures, rather than going full retard with disciplinary action

Like schools, third level, youth clubs, football clubs, athletic clubs, skate board parks, counselling services, probation services, restorative justice etc.
I agree with you.

Military discipline won't work, what exactly will they do to people that tell them to **** off? Put them in prisons? The same place they are going anyway.

Secondly, it's an insult to professional soldiers to think a bunch of thugs can just be lumped in with them without issues. They are not babysitters or prison officers.

The only way such a move could work is other community services. Link it to welfare as an enticement and ensure that the service they perform is of genuine benefit to the society they feed off.

As for this ****e about lack of services. They have more facilities and services than any private estate could dream about. Playgrounds, youth clubs, educational groups, indoor pitches, outdoor pitches, free medical, free medicine, free travel and a house..... And they can still access everything you or I can because welfare in this country is a decent amount.

whisky_galore

As for this ****e about lack of services. They have more facilities and services than any private estate could dream about. Playgrounds, youth clubs, educational groups, indoor pitches, outdoor pitches, free medical, free medicine, free travel and a house..... And they can still access everything you or I can because welfare in this country is a decent amount.

Bu de kids have no faciliteeees.

*Playground/playing fields/terrace houses/youth club vandalised/burnt out.*

Deres no faciliteeees!

Eric Cartman

What they really need is a few dads sticking around , not as many kids to be born into families where nobodys had a job in decades and for everyone to start calling the gardai when kids commit crimes, if you get little anto into the JLO system for spraypainting walls at 12, youve a much higher chance of stopping him becoming a drug dealer at 15 and robbing cars etc...

Housefree

peasant wrote: »

Take it from one who had to do it, compulsory military service does absolutely nothing to improve your life ..other than perhaps turn you into an alcoholic.

Pointless orders, stupid chains of command, endless boredom, no sense of self and no sense of the greater good either, waste of time and money, nothing useful ever done.

Sounds like a good introduction to work life

Rodin

peasant wrote: »

Take it from one who had to do it, compulsory military service does absolutely nothing to improve your life ..other than perhaps turn you into an alcoholic.

Pointless orders, stupid chains of command, endless boredom, no sense of self and no sense of the greater good either, waste of time and money, nothing useful ever done.

Pointless ..unless you really want to become a soldier ...but you can do that without it being compulsory.

Was there a problem with the concept or its implementation? The two are of course very different.

freshpopcorn

It would probably be more cost effective to pay everybody a basic income and deduct money once you start clocking up convictions, using free legal aid more than once and have wheelbarrows of children.

Eric Cartman

freshpopcorn wrote: »

It would probably be more cost effective to pay everybody a basic income and deduct money once you start clocking up convictions, using free legal aid more than once and have wheelbarrows of children.

Converting to a food stamps model for convicts would be better ‘if you break the law therell be no more cans and smokes for you deco

calfmuscle

What are the pregnant girls going to do while in this service?

Victor

Markus Antonius wrote: »

I can't think of a better solution to the anti-social scumbaggery

The observation from police officers during the period of National Service in the UK was that it did nothing to improve anti-social behaviour and just created criminals that could now outrun the police.

Signore Fancy Pants

JustAThought wrote: »

Our Irish army somehow has an annual budget of close to TWO BILLION euro yet Incan barely point to any functioning service it does for the IRISH public

The 2021 military budget is 1.07 Billion....that is the second time in history that it has exceeded 1 Billion. Also military spending per GDP has been consistently dropping since 1991. The highest was in 1980 and the lowest in 2017. In general terms, the Irish military budget is consistently the lowest or among the lowest in Europe.

2020: 1.04 Billion
2019: 758 Million
2018: 707 Million

The budget pays for DF personnel (PDF & RDF) and civilian staff, DOD civil servants, all equipment, infrastructure and utilities, funding for Civil Defence and the Irish Red Cross.

It's not 1.07 Billion in pay, again, you generally won't see "any functioning service for the IRISH public"...that's the nature of Defence...not sure you quite get it at all. Its not a public service. Your claim of 2 Billion is wrong....and roughly 20 million is handed back every year.

JustAThought wrote: »

And I don’t mean fannying about  on peacekeeping services for double their normal salary.

Firstly, yes DF members receive extra pay for serving overseas, would you expect them not too? &What you might not know, is that it actually makes money for the Irish Government. The UN reimburses Ireland for each soldier and Irish owned equipment deployed in theatre.

This amounts to Ireland receiving about €1250 per soldier per month, so between Lebanon, Syria and Africa, the UN reimburses about €10-15 Million a year to Ireland, maybe more when you add the equipment in.

Secondly, Ireland has a proud and unrivalled record of overseas peacekeeping/peace enforcement. Its not an easy job, it can be boring but it can also be dodgy as f.uck.

A soldier can expect to make on average €15k (tax free) extra for a 6 month stint, roughly €82 extra a day. For a 12hr day, thats €6.82 per hour. Soldiers dont get overtime and the wages are low, overseas can be an opportunity to make some money....which goes into the Irish exchequer eventually.

Thirdly, you are also contractually obliged (i.e forced) to serve overseas as per the T&C's of employment. It's not glamorous, it's shi.t being away from your family, it certainly not "fannying about" as you call it.

Finally, some lads have been ambushed, some shot at, some have been targeted with mortars, artillery and tank rounds. Some have been kidnapped, tortured and killed, some remain missing. So, heres justathought, try to at least have an ounce of respect.

JustAThought wrote: »

Maybe the Irish army could stop and think about what value they deliver to the taxpayer too - lets face it - the councils have to ask the unions permission before they are allowed ask them to even help out in emergencies - its a absolute joke and someone with a pair of balls ( or otherwise) should address it.

The primary task of the Defence Forces is to be the last line of defence and protect the state from armed aggression. That's not an every day event, but they train nationally and internationally just for that (less than likely) event. You rarely see that training.

Their most visible task is to provide troops for Aid to the Civil Power / Authority. And just on that point.

This is blatant misdirection or complete ignorance on your part, which is fine, we don't know everything. This has zero to do with "the Unions" of which the DF do not have Unions, they have Representative Associations, who have zero power at all, so your point is wrong.

The DF cannot act unilaterally outside of their mandate. As Ireland is a democracy with firm legislation, under the Defence Act 1954, actions of the DF are controlled by civilian and government direction. This means that they cannot just do what they want...for obvious reasons.

ATCP/ATCA is provided by the DF at the request of AGS or other state department, local authority. The DF cannot (by law) put troops on the ground without a legitimate request and the granting of DOD and/or the Minister for Defence. So, it's not the DF's decision, it is purely out of their hands.

Your assertion that the DF "pick and choose" in times of emergency, frankly, is bullsh1t. Yes, it is "a joke" and "someone with a pair of balls should address it" and give them more tasks.



Value? Well they are on average the lowest paid public servants and are tax payers themselves. They are highly trained in their field and are very proficient with multiple weapons systems, from bayonets, small arms to artillery. This comes with a heavy responsibility and an authority to use these weapons systems under civilian and military law.

Tbh, the training they go through to be an effective soldier and leader isn't easy. Training is hard, its physical, can be dangerous, their bodies do be f.ucked after a few years. Come back to me when you have done 20 hour days for 5 weeks on the ground, living in a forest or a hole in Irish weather. The pay really is not worth.

Due to our troubled past and issues with internal security, high risk responsibilities were given to the DF. This was to mitigate threats from "de Ra", such as armed cash escorts, armed prisoner escorts, armed explosive escorts, armed guarding of Portlaoise Prison, Explosive Ordnance Disposal, armed patrols of vital installations including power stations, broadcasting facilities, air and sea ports, government buildings and the Mint...among others.

So, you are not really going to see the value due to the nature of the job and its mandate. It's not a public service, it's a service you will only see, like you said in an emergency situation or conflict. That will never change.

To conclude, I'd imagine that my 21+ years as a soldier of Ireland, those that have gone before me and thkse after me have/will provided more "value" to Ireland and it's international reputation than you have. That reputation holds significant value at an international level, one which you may never understand.

calfmuscle

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Washing up, laundry, hovering and other light house work.

And how does this in anyway serve the country ?

LillySV

Mandatory community employment schemes where someone who’s still signing on a year and a half later must work on schemes to get their head focused on getting real job and let them realise they be made work for their dole long term and not be paid to sit at home do nothing as has been the case for last decade or more .... it’s becoming the career option of way too many now

ElektroToad

Can't say I'd be fan of this idea.

I'd much rather pump massive funding into the Garda so that they are a modern police force to reckoned with, rather than ridiculed. I mean let's be honest, being a Garda isn't a career aspiration held by very many. I think all the current members are incredibly brave, given the lack of resources and the amount of **** they have to put up with from all sides


Basically, as it stands our scumbags they have no fear. You have kids as young as 11 or 12y.o. openly mocking and throwing bottles at Gardai cars as drive by.

That's an outrageous position for any country to be in

corner of hells

JustAThought , you there ?

Rodin

ElektroToad wrote: »

Can't say I'd be fan of this idea.

I'd much rather pump massive funding into the Garda so that they are a modern police force to reckoned with, rather than ridiculed. I mean let's be honest, being a Garda isn't a career aspiration held by very many. I think all the current members are incredibly brave, given the lack of resources and the amount of **** they have to put up with from all sides


Basically, as it stands our scumbags they have no fear. You have kids as young as 11 or 12y.o. openly mocking and throwing bottles at Gardai cars as drive by.

That's an outrageous position for any country to be in

And why would Gardai do much about it when the courts won't back them up.
Im tired of seeing people with 50+, 100+ convictions. Sooner or later society must be protected from these tramps.

Eric Cartman

LillySV wrote: »

Mandatory community employment schemes where someone who’s still signing on a year and a half later must work on schemes to get their head focused on getting real job and let them realise they be made work for their dole long term and not be paid to sit at home do nothing as has been the case for last decade or more .... it’s becoming the career option of way too many now

This, absolutely this.

nigeldaniel

I would agree with compulsory military service but this here in Ireland and we prefer to be ill-disciplined stroppy brats defiant in the face of the law, our parents, and everyone we don't like or can't get something from.

Oranage2

Eric Cartman wrote: »

What they really need is a few dads sticking around , not as many kids to be born into families where nobodys had a job in decades and for everyone to start calling the gardai when kids commit crimes, if you get little anto into the JLO system for spraypainting walls at 12, youve a much higher chance of stopping him becoming a drug dealer at 15 and robbing cars etc...

I agree with you about the fathers but is there any proof about the jlos, I've seen people with them all their lives and still end up in prison

Eric Cartman

Oranage2 wrote: »

I agree with you about the fathers but is there any proof about the jlos, I've seen people with them all their lives and still end up in prison

It cant hurt though, if even 20% of those were diverted from crime it would be better than not engaging with gardai. It also makes the young gurriers known to gardai and easier to catch