It's about time we had a compulsory military service

ElektroToad

Rodin wrote: »

And why would Gardai do much about it when the courts won't back them up.
Im tired of seeing people with 50+, 100+ convictions. Sooner or later society

Agree 100%. The Garda need a reformed legal system and beefed up prison capacity that supports their work, rather than make a total mockery of it.

James Brown

Train thugs and give them guns?

Who wants to go anywhere potentially putting your life on the line because Michael or Leo wants to kiss the arse of some foreign authority?

Bubbaclaus

Godwin's Law of CA strikes again.

Vestiapx

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

...

..

, I'd imagine that my 21+ years as a soldier of Ireland, those that have gone before me and thkse after me have/will provided more "value" to Ireland and it's international reputation than you have. That reputation holds significant value at an international level, one which you may never understand.

Well said. Thanks .

peasant

Rodin wrote: »

Was there a problem with the concept or its implementation? The two are of course very different.

My compulsory military service was in the West-German Bundeswehr, at the tail end of the cold war, just before the wall came down.
At that time the Bundeswehr had close to half a million people under arms at all times, a large proportion of them conscripts, also lovingly known as cannonfodder
Military service at the time was 12 months, 3 of those were basic training and for the remaining 9 you got assigned to a unit.
During basic training you did the basics. Learning how to dress, stand to attention, march, get dirty, make all clean again. Occasionally you also got to get a weapon dirty (with blanks and lots of mud) and cleaned it again and three or four times you even got to shoot real ammunition on a range. Mostly marching, cleaning and being bored though.

Then you got assigned to a unit.
The vast majority of conscripts spent their time in guard units. Lots of sitting around, some patrolling, more sitting.
Others were more lucky and got somewhat more interesting units. But even then, you didn't get to do much. In any organisation - civilian or otherwise - if they tell you that this person is only there to do a job for nine months, you're gonna keep that job simple and not invest an awful lot into training them. So all the real tasks were done by proper soldiers, conscripts were only the help. The height of achievement might be that you get to (get the licence and) drive something. A staff car, truck or perhaps even something with tracks. But mostly cleaning and being bored...less of the marching, thankfully.

I myself got to spend nine months in an office, trying to look busy while having nothing to do. I got to drive a van to headquarters (2 km and back) every day and about once a month we got to drive the company trucks so they wouldn't park themselves to death.

And that was in a huge army at the time. What they would do with lots of conscripts in a highly specialised and small force like the Irish Defence Force ...honestly ...no idea.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

It cant hurt though, if even 20% of those were diverted from crime it would be better than not engaging with gardai. It also makes the young gurriers known to gardai and easier to catch

Least I heard the number in Dublin is under 10% and I would suspect that the 10% area nearly all kids that were unlikely to make a career out of crime

AndrewJRenko

LillySV wrote: »

Mandatory community employment schemes where someone who’s still signing on a year and a half later must work on schemes to get their head focused on getting real job and let them realise they be made work for their dole long term and not be paid to sit at home do nothing as has been the case for last decade or more .... it’s becoming the career option of way too many now

Or we could just provide proper employment - decent jobs for people, maybe even with a prospect of moving on to something bigger and better?

Bubbaclaus

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Or we could just provide proper employment - decent jobs for people, maybe even with a prospect of moving on to something bigger and better?

You say that as if it's not currently available.

Richard Hillman

I dont know about military service, it may work, it may not. But we definitely do have to tackle the lack of masculinity in young men now a days.

Whether it be military service or public service works, something that improves their physical skills and makes them more masculine cannot be underestimated.

The ladies will love it too. No more young men into Fortnite and TikTok dancing but real men into **** like survival skills, building stuff and DIY. They'd probably get laid more too. A big boost to our falling indiginous birthrate.

You'd never get emasculated men in senior positions agree to it though. Folks like Simon Harris and Micheal Martin are more into getting boys into 5km fun runs, veganism and mental health/wellness workshops, which won't improve their masculinity. Folk like Simon Harris and Micheal Martin have always felt threatened by real men, so they want society to move away from them.

Bubbaclaus

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I dont about military service, it may work, it may not. But we definitely do have to tackle the lack of masculinity in young men now a days.

Whether it be military service or public service works, something that improves their physical skills and makes them more masculine cannot be underestimated.

The ladies will love it too. No more young men into Fortnite and TikTok dancing but real men into **** like survival skills, building stuff and DIY. They'd probably get laid more too. A big boost to our falling indiginous birthrate.

You'd never get emasculated men in senior positions agree to it though. Folks like Simon Harris and Micheal Martin are more into getting boys into 5km fun runs, veganism and mental health/wellness workshops, which won't improve their masculinity. Folk like Simon Harris and Micheal Martin have always felt threatened by real men, so they want society to move away from them.

Very bizarre post.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Markus Antonius wrote: »

Do you realise what you've done? You just gave me a list of all the constructive things people do to avoid doing military service...

Isn't this the exact point?

All the posts that completly tear your "idea" limb from limb for a wide variety of very practical reasons - some of which came from experienced military personnel - and THIS is the only rebuttal you have...?

I think you realise now (or perhaps you did when you posted it?) just how deluded the idea is.

AndrewJRenko

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

You say that as if it's not currently available.

Clearly not enough if there is all the work waiting to be done in 'mandatory community schemes'. If the work needs to be done, why don't we just pay people to do it?

wicklowstevo

im sure some one else has said it already but it doesn't have to be military service and likely shouldn't be.

I think its Latvia that had a system in the past where you had to do some kind of socially positive activity for a period of time between 18 and 23 or something ,

Some did army as they are on the Russian boarder some work in hospitals some homeless shelters animals shelters after school programs etc etc etc ,

I good idea would be to withhold social welfare if some one refuses to do it ,

as for using it as part of the criminal justice system im not so sure but it might prevent some of the activities of some scrotes in later life if they were more socially aware and developed a little responsibility.

its not worked perfectly in lativa but there is definatly less anti social behaviour than in Ireland.

last I heard was that there were considering compulsory military service due to rising tensions with the Russians not sure if they brought it in or not though as it was years ago

JustAThought

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

The 2021 military budget is 1.07 Billion....that is the second time in history that it has exceeded 1 Billion. Also military spending per GDP has been consistently dropping since 1991. The highest was in 1980 and the lowest in 2017. In general terms, the Irish military budget is consistently the lowest or among the lowest in Europe.

2020: 1.04 Billion
2019: 758 Million
2018: 707 Million

The budget pays for DF personnel (PDF & RDF) and civilian staff, DOD civil servants, all equipment, infrastructure and utilities, funding for Civil Defence and the Irish Red Cross.

It's not 1.07 Billion in pay, again, you generally won't see "any functioning service for the IRISH public"...that's the nature of Defence...not sure you quite get it at all. Its not a public service. Your claim of 2 Billion is wrong....and roughly 20 million is handed back.

I stand corrected so -
a budget of A BILLION EURO a year. And effectively shrugged off as salaries. And like I said
Again - no actual sign other than salaries of what tangiable benefits to the taxpayer this brings. And as I said - I don’t mean a cohort of men running off to peacekeep and draw double their salary per
month - I am again asking what day to day work does the Irish Army that costs us a BILLION EUrO A YEAR deliver to the taxpayer for
this obscene amount of money? We already have an impotent police force paralysed by the free legal aid and so called justice system - what
WORK does the regular soldier do DAY TO DAY IN IRELAND to justify this obscene spend of BILLION A YEAR? And playing in the woods with expensive toys and marching around squares and 300 of them meeting in a line to salute a politician or inflate their egos at a PR event does not in anyones mind justify the billions spent on them. Its an anachronism and token symbol that provides no service and has no tangiable vlue to the hardworking men and women who are taxed to pay the billion a year it gorges up.

Akrasia

I think every single citizen should receive a state funded 500 euro voucher that can only be redeemed against a membership of a recognized sports or social club in their own name

The cost would be about 2.5 billion a year but
The benefits of this would be enormous. It would help combat isolation and loneliness in adults (which is a real problem)

It would encourage everyone of every social background to participate in the community a little bit more, it would reduce obesity, alcoholism, suicide, heart failure etc

It would fund rural communities and tourism and sporting bodies and also boost urban centers and increase the range of choices available for sports and social activities

It would help fund community groups and encourage more people to start delivering these kinds of services to the community

For children in low income households it would allow them to join the gymnastics club, or swimming club or take piano lessons or whatever they really want to do but cannot because their parents can’t afford it.

A lot of the criminal and ‘scumbag’ activities we see are because these kids are just sent out into the world with no direction, they have little positive to focus on and no self confidence so they act out in groups

LillySV

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Or we could just provide proper employment - decent jobs for people, maybe even with a prospect of moving on to something bigger and better?

Lots of decent jobs out there.... who is the “we” that should provide the perfect job for them anyways ? Humans all have to work together to make the world a better place , while at the same time humans have to try and adapt/improve themselves in order to be able to supply food and shelter to themselves and their loved ones . That’s how life works... but unfortunately in Ireland there seems to be a growing amount of people who think the other people should pay extra taxes for them to sit around deciding what they want to do... or if they want to do anything!

I’m not aware of any other species out there in the animal kingdom where a percentage of them have to provide to others with nothing in return .... and if our species stays this way or gets worse .... there will end up being more people at home waiting for someone else to provide and our species will be doomed

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Akrasia wrote: »

I think every single citizen should receive a state funded 500 euro voucher that can only be redeemed against a membership of a recognized sports or social club in their own name

The cost would be about 2.5 billion a year but
The benefits of this would be enormous. It would help combat isolation and loneliness in adults (which is a real problem)

It would encourage everyone of every social background to participate in the community a little bit more, it would reduce obesity, alcoholism, suicide, heart failure etc

It would fund rural communities and tourism and sporting bodies and also boost urban centers and increase the range of choices available for sports and social activities

It would help fund community groups and encourage more people to start delivering these kinds of services to the community

For children in low income households it would allow them to join the gymnastics club, or swimming club or take piano lessons or whatever they really want to do but cannot because their parents can’t afford it.

A lot of the criminal and ‘scumbag’ activities we see are because these kids are just sent out into the world with no direction, they have little positive to focus on and no self confidence so they act out in groups

I think you can join most social cubs for a lot less than that, if not free. Money isn't the obstacle to people choosing to hang around on corners and be scumbags as opposed to joining a club and being productive.

What would help? No idea. Perhapd they're just scumbags and that's going to happen (in which case the army's not going to make a difference).

My theory is a more varied and practical education. They get disillusioned and pissed off with learning irrelevant **** in school that they stop going. And this is the only option.

breezy1985

Akrasia wrote: »

I think every single citizen should receive a state funded 500 euro voucher that can only be redeemed against a membership of a recognized sports or social club in their own name

The cost would be about 2.5 billion a year but
The benefits of this would be enormous. It would help combat isolation and loneliness in adults (which is a real problem)

It would encourage everyone of every social background to participate in the community a little bit more, it would reduce obesity, alcoholism, suicide, heart failure etc

It would fund rural communities and tourism and sporting bodies and also boost urban centers and increase the range of choices available for sports and social activities

It would help fund community groups and encourage more people to start delivering these kinds of services to the community

For children in low income households it would allow them to join the gymnastics club, or swimming club or take piano lessons or whatever they really want to do but cannot because their parents can’t afford it.

A lot of the criminal and ‘scumbag’ activities we see are because these kids are just sent out into the world with no direction, they have little positive to focus on and no self confidence so they act out in groups

Thats a great idea. Even if people never go the sports still get funded

LillySV

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Clearly not enough if there is all the work waiting to be done in 'mandatory community schemes'. If the work needs to be done, why don't we just pay people to do it?

Well I do agree that amount paid to people on community employment schemes at present should be increased ...but not so much that it makes it a better option than actual full time jobs ...

Akrasia

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I think you can join most social cubs for a lot less than that, if not free. Money isn't the obstacle to people choosing to hang around on corners and be scumbags as opposed to joining a club and being productive.

What would help? No idea. Perhapd they're just scumbags and that's going to happen (in which case the army's not going to make a difference).

My theory is a more varied and practical education. They get disillusioned and pissed off with learning irrelevant **** in school that they stop going. And this is the only option.

You can often join the club for free but every activity costs money. As does the equipment required to participate

Properly funded, these social clubs, often run by volunteers could do so much more fun and varied activities that would keep people engaged without having the volunteers wasting their time and energy standing on the road all day with a bucket collecting money

tjhook

JustAThought wrote: »

I am again asking what day to day work does the Irish Army that costs us a BILLION EUrO A YEAR deliver to the taxpayer for

JustAThought wrote: »

And playing in the woods with expensive toys and marching around squares and 300 of them meeting in a line to salute a politician or inflate their egos at a PR event does not in anyones mind justify the billions spent on them. Its an anachronism and token symbol that provides no service and has no tangiable vlue to the hardworking men and women who are taxed to pay the billion a year it gorges up.

What do you get for that car insurance you pay for every year? Not all expenses deliver tangible benefits every year. Remember it's not so long ago that we had an armed force within our borders that did not recognise the mechanisms of state put in place by democratically-elected officials. If the time comes again that we need an army, it will be too late to start thinking about how to build one.

How much do you think is a reasonable amount for a country the size of Ireland to spend on its military? If you can reference another country's military spending in your response, that would be great. Or maybe every country is wrong, and only you see the light.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Akrasia wrote: »

You can often join the club for free but every activity costs money. As does the equipment required to participate

Properly funded, these social clubs, often run by volunteers could do so much more fun and varied activities that would keep people engaged without having the volunteers wasting their time and energy standing on the road all day with a bucket collecting money

Fair enough. As long as the individual in question actually stayed an active member rather than just showing up once and then drifting away.

JustAThought

tjhook wrote: »

What do you get for that car insurance you pay for every year? Not all expenses deliver tangible benefits every year. Remember it's not so long ago that we had an armed force within our borders that did not recognise the mechanisms of state put in place by democratically-elected officials. If the time comes again that we need an army, it will be too late to start thinking about how to build one.

How much do you think is a reasonable amount for a country the size of Ireland to spend on its military? If you can reference another country's military spending in your response, that would be great. Or maybe every country is wrong, and only you see the light.

It is an obscenity for a neutral country, an island, that is bankrupt, to be borrowing a BILLION euro plus interest a year to spend on a unproductive, overweight and unnecessary historical organisation that provides no value or practical service to its own taxpayers. Token parades and PR activities and exercises in the woods do not qualify as a service to justify this obscene cost and burden on society.


As for the proposal that we ( the hardworking overtaxed working poor) should ALSO work to pay taxes to lay for hobbies and sports clubs memberships for the great unwashed, those who refuse to work and the intergenerational social paracites and dossers - em - no.

Not to mention that we currently already fund ‘sicial integration’ memberships to exactly these people via handouts for gym memberships from the Vincent De Paul, Paid FAS courses on to learn how to be a footballer or tennis ‘professional, football and overseas trips for the ‘homeless’ for homeless world cup training and championships, and yachts paid for and provided for ‘social and sports’ training for bloody prisoners. And thats before I get started on the MASSIVE industry surrounding the taxpayer paying for goods and services for the ‘homeless’ and industries build around providing free anything you can mention to the ‘deprived’ - boxes of food delivered to every childs home in schools in certain areas, playgrounds, IT and tablets in schools, fully funded after school clubs and breakfast clubs, homework clubs, and then we start on the facilities - an industry is built around it. But nothing can shore up rubbish parenting and entirely emotionally or physically absent parents or a parent who is so dysfunctional from drink or drugs that their child had no chance from almost when they were born.
we need to look at the model Mayor Juliano (sp) brought into NY and start asking serious questions like he did about why billions over generations can be apent on all of these services and resources and yet a dysfunctional outcome is still the expected norm . His model was groundbreaking.

By comparison we are still groping around in the dark throwing money out open windows and hoping it will fix a deranged out of control system and utterly self entitled out of control people.

tjhook

JustAThought wrote: »

It is an obscenity for a neutral country, an island, that is bankrupt, to be borrowing a BILLION euro plus interest a year to spend on a unproductive, overweight and unnecessary historical organisation that provides no value or practical service to its own taxpayers. Token parades and PR activities and exercises in the woods do not qualify as a service to justify this obscene cost and burden on society.

So again, what country is doing it right in your eyes?

JustAThought

tjhook wrote: »

So again, what country is doing it right in your eyes?

So read my texts again. Your civil service mentalitystatements and expectations are just why this country is in the toilet and why we are spending billions every year that other people have to work to give away so that the self entitled wasters can have their toys and worthless jobs that deliver nothing.

Obscene Historical spending and outdated non performing roles and institutions need to be stripped out and challenged - starting with the overweight, non performing function of ‘irish army’ -self important men dressed in uniforms marching around delivering nothing to the taxpayer and running up bills of a billion + a year. Its a national disgrace.

tjhook

JustAThought wrote: »

<rant>

You can't provide an example of a country whose military spending patterns are better than Ireland's, but you insist you know better than those who have the responsibility.

If there was the threat of an armed insurgency in Ireland again, you'd be the first one outraged about how weak the army was. Or maybe you'd be cheering it on...

By the way phrases like "self entitled wasters", "toys and worthless jobs", "overweight, non performing" - sorry, but you've exposed your petty bitterness. You're not interested in discussion.

Jim2007

JustAThought wrote: »

So read my texts again. Your civil service mentalitystatements and expectations are just why this country is in the toilet and why we are spending billions every year that other people have to work to give away so that the self entitled wasters can have their toys and worthless jobs that deliver nothing.

Obscene Historical spending and outdated non performing roles and institutions need to be stripped out and challenged - starting with the overweight, non performing function of ‘irish army’ -self important men dressed in uniforms marching around delivering nothing to the taxpayer and running up bills of a billion + a year. Its a national disgrace.

Nothing of any substance at all in your posts. The national debt was reduced from 124% down to 58% in line with countries like Germany and still you continue to patter off the same old nonsense. This kind of nonsense does nothing for your credibility.

10pennymixup

JustAThought wrote: »

So read my texts again. Your civil service mentalitystatements and expectations are just why this country is in the toilet and why we are spending billions every year that other people have to work to give away so that the self entitled wasters can have their toys and worthless jobs that deliver nothing.

Obscene Historical spending and outdated non performing roles and institutions need to be stripped out and challenged - starting with the overweight, non performing function of ‘irish army’ -self important men dressed in uniforms marching around delivering nothing to the taxpayer and running up bills of a billion + a year. Its a national disgrace.

tjhook wrote: »

So again, what country is doing it right in your eyes?

Just answer the fcuking question and stop your ranting. will ye!

A person that knows and moans about the price of everything but knows the value of nothing.

How much of a budget should we allocate for a national defense force, fifty cent?

Polar101

I did this compulsory military service thing. Can't say it was an enjoyable experience, although I did get to experience things I wouldn't experience anywhere else, so at least some of the memories are interesting. Luckily there was no war during the time, so I didn't die.

Random thoughts about it:
- When you take 100-200 young males from the same age group, and put them together for several months, you do meet a lot of different kinds of people. That includes criminals, scumbags, rich kids, poor kids, idiots, geniuses.. you kind of have to get along, so maybe that's a learning experience. A lot of the time it was pretty nasty.
- The people who might have benefited the most from the military usually didn't make it through, because they couldn't handle being told what to do all the time. Generally the criminals and the scumbags quit. So my experience of this "boys to men" thing is that it didn't work very well.
- It was a waste of time, most of the time. I found everything very inefficient - the saying was that you were always being rushed somewhere to wait. When people here post and say armies are very efficient in logistics and everything, it definitely wasn't my experience.

Here are some of the things I learned, and an opinion on how useful they have been in later life.
1) Shooting an assault rifle - haven't done since
2) Using hand grenades - haven't done since
3) Set up anti-tank defences - haven't done since (or have I?)
4) Using landmines - they have been banned since, and haven't done since anyway
5) I did learn some useful technical skills, but I could have learned that elsewhere too
6) Swearing - ****

Should Ireland introduce compulsory military service in my opinion? No.
Should there be some kind of a compulsory civil service? Possibly - but does the state need the "free" labour and can it accept that it might take a year off everyones' work careers?

Bobtheman

We don't need a full time army as it is. We should abolish it. Just arm more guards. Its just a lot of nationalist bull**** to have one. Who the f xxx would invade us?