At what point does wear and tear become tenant damage

pwurple

Question for landlords.

Over the last few decades of tenants, I generally repair or replace furniture or appliances as it gets damaged, expecting maybe 8-10 years of usable life in appliances.

I’ve one particular tenant at the moment though who is very hard going on everything in the place. Never cleans or defrosts appliances, seems quite rough on furniture. In two years has broken 2 beds, tables (dining and coffee), 3 chairs , oven burnt out, hob knobs broken off, hinges on windows broken, and I just got a text saying the fridge-freezer is broken. The photo shows me it is completely filled with frost...

Where is the line between negligent damage and wear and tear?

3DataModem

For a two-year tenancy the above crosses the line, IMO. I'd be knocking 75% off the deposit (I generally give something back even for excessively damaged places so that there is incentive for the tenant not to chuck the keys in the river and light a fire on their last day).

Sharpyshoot

You have a rooter. Best get them out, p45.

The line is miles away from your tenant at this stage, that’s for sure.

Most of the above you’ve listed indicates abuse of contents over and above normal wear and tear - fridges last 15 to 20 years easy (although I would choose frost free to reduce issues, pooling of water etc. A burnt out oven is not normal use.
As for broken coffee tables and tables, from experience it sounds like alcohol is involved here- either big parties or just the tenants using copious amounts of alcohol to the degree they’re absolute blotto - nearly wild.

I hope you have a deposit put away- might be time to start looking for new tenants- I would t be spending money on new appliances quite yet- have you inspected the premises recently? You might be in for a shock

PetitPois89

That amount of damage sounds ridiculous for a short tenancy however bear in mind for the past year the majority of people are spending most of their time at home so there is increased wear on property.

There needs to be clear evidence that the damage is caused by undue care/ neglect/intent to cause destruction/misuse to constitute damage. Age of the items needs to be taken into consideration also. This is how the RTB look at it.

Also if you’re thinking of deducting costs from a tenants deposit you must offer them the opportunity to rectify the issue before any deduction is made. RTB insist on it and throw out any case where this opportunity isn’t given - I’ve seen it many times where tenants use this to their advantage.

As wear and tear is such a grey area and RTB are pro-tenant unfortunately it can be a losing battle for a Landlord

ShaShaBear

I'd definitely consider that above and beyond. We're at our current residence 8 years and we've had to get the washing machine and the cooker replaced - that's it. And in fairness to us, neither appliance was new when we moved in, so we have no idea how long it was in use for.

Our family has increased in size from just myself and my husband to include a dog and our three kids in that time, so it's not like we aren't getting good use out of the place!

TheValeyard

3DataModem wrote: »

For a two-year tenancy the above crosses the line, IMO. I'd be knocking 75% off the deposit (I generally give something back even for excessively damaged places so that there is incentive for the tenant not to chuck the keys in the river and light a fire on their last day).

Stayed in places for far longer than two years. Was always a very good tenant. Always got deposit back and I'd be contacting the RTB or nessessary group to ensure the return of it if the landlord tried to withhold it.

theteal

I'm no landlord but OP, you have a LOT more patience than I do.

In ~20 years of adult life, renting and owning, I've not done a single thing on your list there (actually, window hinge is currently iffy but everyone in the house, including 4 yr old daughter, knows this and it's handled with due care). How anybody could do the lot inside 2 years is highly questionable?

Not to offend but is/was the stuff especially cheap? Yeah defrosting the fridge freezer is a pain but it's patently obvious when it needs to be done. If that's old, just replace as most are frost free these days.

I genuinely don't know what to do in this instance. You can read the riot act but then the tenant can play silly buggers and stop paying rent etc. How long does it take to evict in Ireland these days????

Del2005

PetitPois89 wrote: »

That amount of damage sounds ridiculous for a short tenancy however bear in mind for the past year the majority of people are spending most of their time at home so there is increased wear on property.

There needs to be clear evidence that the damage is caused by undue care/ neglect/intent to cause destruction/misuse to constitute damage. Age of the items needs to be taken into consideration also. This is how the RTB look at it.

Also if you’re thinking of deducting costs from a tenants deposit you must offer them the opportunity to rectify the issue before any deduction is made. RTB insist on it and throw out any case where this opportunity isn’t given - I’ve seen it many times where tenants use this to their advantage.

As wear and tear is such a grey area and RTB are pro-tenant unfortunately it can be a losing battle for a Landlord

Everyone I know has been locked in their property for the last year and none have broken one item of furniture never mind the amount the OPs tenant has in 2 years.

The OP's tenant obviously has no respect of others property if they are doing that much damage and unfortunately our system is so biased against the landlord the tenant will probably get a payout from the RTB if the OP doesn't cross all the t's and dot all the i's at the end of tenancy.

pwurple

No, the stuff is not cheap. I don’t usually rent furnished, but this one was an exception. Furniture was from a reputable furniture shop, appliances are Bosch and hotpoint. Same quality as I have in my own home. Not old either, 5 years or so for most of it. 10 for the oven, but I don’t consider that old tbh.


Thanks for the advice on getting them to replace it. I was going to replace the fridge myself and then remove from the deposit when they go. Of course the deposit doesn’t cover all of it... but I should instead offer them the opportunity to replace. I looked at repairing it, it’s around 250 euro. New fridge is around 350.


I’m in a little bit of a funny position with this tenant actually... with COVID I won’t evict anyone of course, but this is the partner of my original tenant. I don’t have any real agreement with them. They broke up, this person stayed, the other moved out. I didn’t return a deposit as it was still occupied. Rent is paid on time. It’s just the damage is getting expensive.


I don’t think it’s deliberate, or drunken, I have other tenants in the building, no reports of noise etc. It’s just that they are careless / clumsy / don’t know how to look after themselves or a home well.

PetitPois89

Del2005 wrote: »

Everyone I know has been locked in their property for the last year and none have broken one item of furniture never mind the amount the OPs tenant has in 2 years.

The OP's tenant obviously has no respect of others property if they are doing that much damage and unfortunately our system is so biased against the landlord the tenant will probably get a payout from the RTB if the OP doesn't cross all the t's and dot all the i's at the end of tenancy.

I’m not condoning or excusing it in the slightest. I’ve worked as a Property Manager almost 10 years and the lack of care from tenants never ceases to amaze me. Tenants (not all) are increasingly entitled and think just because they “pay high rent” everything should go in their favour. The biased RTB and Threshold encourage this behaviour

dennyk

Assuming those items weren't already quite old or cheap and poorly made, that definitely sounds like it would fall well outside "normal wear and tear". Multiple beds, tables, and chairs don't just up and break in the span of a couple years from being used normally, unless they're just junk to begin with (and it doesn't sound like yours were). Appliances can be another story; sometimes those just do spontaneously fail, but if the tenant is letting their freezer get packed full of frost until it doesn't work right and burns out the compressor, that's definitely on them.

Unfortunately proving all of that is another matter; if you withhold from their deposit for those damages and they bring it to the RTB, it really could go either way.

Hontou

pwurple wrote: »

I’m in a little bit of a funny position with this tenant actually... with COVID I won’t evict anyone of course, but this is the partner of my original tenant. I don’t have any real agreement with them. They broke up, this person stayed, the other moved out. I didn’t return a deposit as it was still occupied. Rent is paid on time. It’s just the damage is getting expensive.

Was this person on the tenancy agreement? If not, what rights have they, I wonder? Do they gain automatic part 4 rights as a tenant as they are an occupier now? I'm curious as my tenant's boyfriend has moved in, is not on the tenancy but I can see trouble ahead. At first I could do nothing as they claimed he was "their guest" which is not my business, but now he has admitted he is living there. Like the OP, stuff has been broken.

KilOit

That's not wear and tear. you break it you replace it.
3 chairs and 2 beds? sounds like drunken house parties

Patches oHoulihan

Lads I have a maintenence company and I was in a house last week doing a bathroom job.

The house is about 15 years old and the tenant is there about 8 years. I've never seen a dirtier house..the bathroom has slime on the bath and the taps are seized with scale. Black mold everywhere and seals have failed etc. Just never been cleaned. Mold and scale at that level takes a very long time to build up.
He wants me to write a report about wear and tear for the landlord. I told him its down to lack of upkeep and cleaning and left.
Trying to pin it on the landlord was outrageous

ted1

pwurple wrote: »

Question for landlords.

Over the last few decades of tenants, I generally repair or replace furniture or appliances as it gets damaged, expecting maybe 8-10 years of usable life in appliances.

I’ve one particular tenant at the moment though who is very hard going on everything in the place. Never cleans or defrosts appliances, seems quite rough on furniture. In two years has broken 2 beds, tables (dining and coffee), 3 chairs , oven burnt out, hob knobs broken off, hinges on windows broken, and I just got a text saying the fridge-freezer is broken. The photo shows me it is completely filled with frost...

Where is the line between negligent damage and wear and tear?

He’s taking the piss that’s damage not wear snd tear ( providing you are not buying poor quality)

As for defrosting the freezer. I haven’t done mine in the 9 years I’ve had it. Just buy frost free ones