United Ireland....... Persuade the unionists.....

MaccaTacca

martinedwards wrote: »

The idea of a Scottish connection only really stretches to Celtic and Rangers

What's the English connection then? Because that's even more unclear.

The J Stands for Jay

martinedwards wrote: »

HE said that it'll never happen because of the finances.

Mainly the NHS. Which someone else has already pointed out is FREE. totally.

So once the NHS is gone, a united Ireland will follow?

MaccaTacca

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Why would Scotland leaving for anything? NI would still be part of the U.K. and the Queen would still be their Queen.

The majority of Unionists are of Scottish origin.

Just seems awfully unfair to me that the Scots caused many of our problems up north and get to swan off independent without a care in the world for the chaos they've caused here over the years.

beerguts

Why do we have to persuade them. It might seem callous but they have a superiority complex when it comes to native Irish people. It should be 50+1 and then incorporate them. We should never pander to them

The J Stands for Jay

trixi001 wrote: »

I do see a UI ultimately solving the division, it may be a few generations away, but ultimately it will happen. I don't want to form a UI and forget about the other side, we all seen what happened when the unionists formed NI and forgot about the other side - we definitely do not want a repeat of this, but it is important to recognise that a UI may happen, the GFA makes room for it too happen, i think initially if it does happen it will be a long slow process, stormont will initially continue as is, except the authority will come from Dublin not London, ultimately, i would hope that Stormont would be widened to govern all of ulster, and that each province has its on devolved parliament, the unionists would still be a major party within the Ulster Parliament, and a significant minor party in the national government, they will not be forgotten, Ireland is for everyone

I have no love for the current systems in Dublin, the government are too concerned about the EU, foreign investment and Dublin to care about the inequalities with Ireland, homelessness, the joke of a health service etc. Did you know that Donegal only has 7km border with RoI, the remainder is with NI - it would be much better served by an Ulster Parliament instead of forgotten about by a Dublin one.

I am definitely not a typical nationalist - I vote for parties that want to make NI a successful place in its own right, i don't look at orange & green when voting - I look at the policies regardless of the parties outlook constitutional question, and my loyalty to any particular party is not fixed.

However i am still a nationalist, Ireland is my country, i have more in common with the people of Waterford, than the people of Watford.
I live on the border, and cross it everyday, have family on both sides, work on both sides of it, COVID restrictions on checkpoints on the border are now part of my everyday life, this is only reinforcing my desire for a UI

Hmmm, forgotten by Dublin, or deliberately ignored for being west of the Bann...

martinedwards

MaccaTacca wrote: »

What's the English connection then? Because that's even more unclear.

The Queen!

To be honest, most Unionists dislike the English as much as anyone.

Come Sport, everyone here supports two teams. Ireland/northern ireland, and whoever England are playing.

I know a fair few staunch Unionists, and the glee at England finishing 5th in the 6 nations is unanimous!

atilladehun

I don't see it happening. There's too many people who don't want it, even if it is provided for in words in the GFA if it became a real possibility then there would be a significant amount of people willing to act out their reluctance. Not necessarily violence.

My big hope for when the push comes to unify, and it will come, is that it doesn't follow the same path as Brexit. Don't hold the vote and then use that as a mandate to force negotiations and agreements. If a group wants to push for it they should arrive to the voting public with a plan that lines out all concessions and agreements with the backing of significant interested parties on both sides. Doesn't have to be all but it should have significant Unionist and Nationalist backing. It should lay out what the future rights and responsibilities will be and it should point out what concessions each side is making and why.

Not only will this bring respect for the other sides at the time of voting it will ensure that a result either way is less likely to bring the division we saw with Brexit.

YFlyer

martinedwards wrote: »

The idea of a Scottish connection only really stretches to Celtic and Rangers

And football fans of other clubs from both Ireland and England.

Mules

atilladehun wrote: »

I don't see it happening. There's too many people who don't want it, even if it is provided for in words in the GFA if it became a real possibility then there would be a significant amount of people willing to act out their reluctance. Not necessarily violence.

My big hope for when the push comes to unify, and it will come, is that it doesn't follow the same path as Brexit. Don't hold the vote and then use that as a mandate to force negotiations and agreements. If a group wants to push for it they should arrive to the voting public with a plan that lines out all concessions and agreements with the backing of significant interested parties on both sides. Doesn't have to be all but it should have significant Unionist and Nationalist backing. It should lay out what the future rights and responsibilities will be and it should point out what concessions each side is making and why.

Not only will this bring respect for the other sides at the time of voting it will ensure that a result either way is less likely to bring the division we saw with Brexit.

All the details should definitely be worked out in advance. As you said, the problem with the Brexit referendum was that they had no plan of what to do afterwards.

Nqp15hhu

beerguts wrote: »

Why do we have to persuade them. It might seem callous but they have a superiority complex when it comes to native Irish people. It should be 50+1 and then incorporate them. We should never pander to them

So we should just dump the good Friday agreement then.

FrancieBrady

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

So we should just dump the good Friday agreement then.

The GFA says, if a majority want a UI, it happens. It doesn't say anything about persuading those who object to it.

Anyone who signed up to it has vowed to accept the will of the majority and democracy.

The_B_Man

NI might need to go independent first for a few generations. Followed by a something similar to the UK now, but with just NI and ROI.
Then maybe later a full union.

Although I'd rather see NI and Scotland go independent and join a "Celtic Trinity" with ourselves.

But regarding the north, someone once told me that a huge percentage of jobs up there are UK government jobs. Like a third of people work for the UK govt. So if there was a United Ireland, would they lose their jobs? I'd imagine not all of them could be kept employed, which means we'd be inheriting a massive social welfare bill.

Nqp15hhu

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The GFA says, if a majority want a UI, it happens. It doesn't say anything about persuading those who object to it.

Anyone who signed up to it has vowed to accept the will of the majority and democracy.

No. He says that “we” shouldn’t pander to Unionists, so if the goose is good for the gander the GFA can be dumped.

Mules

The_B_Man wrote: »

NI might need to go independent first for a few generations. Followed by a something similar to the UK now, but with just NI and ROI.
Then maybe later a full union.

Although I'd rather see NI and Scotland go independent and join a "Celtic Trinity" with ourselves.

But regarding the north, someone once told me that a huge percentage of jobs up there are UK government jobs. Like a third of people work for the UK govt. So if there was a United Ireland, would they lose their jobs? I'd imagine not all of them could be kept employed, which means we'd be inheriting a massive social welfare bill.

Not just a social welfare bill. New jobs would have to be provided.

When the British government shut down the mines in Wales/N England they provided social welfare but there weren't other jobs available so generations of families ended up on welfare. It was a managed decline that turned into a societal decay that still hasn't been fully dealt with.

In NI you'd have that social upheaval as well as a rake of people joining a country they dont want to be part of.

FrancieBrady

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

No. He says that “we” shouldn’t pander to Unionists, so if the goose is good for the gander the GFA can be dumped.

It should be an honest and open discussion with nobody 'pandered' to. Nationalists and republicans will have to compromise a bit and so will Unionists and ALL have to remain democrats and accept the will of the majority as agreed.

Nqp15hhu

The_B_Man wrote: »

NI might need to go independent first for a few generations. Followed by a something similar to the UK now, but with just NI and ROI.
Then maybe later a full union.

Although I'd rather see NI and Scotland go independent and join a "Celtic Trinity" with ourselves.

But regarding the north, someone once told me that a huge percentage of jobs up there are UK government jobs. Like a third of people work for the UK govt. So if there was a United Ireland, would they lose their jobs? I'd imagine not all of them could be kept employed, which means we'd be inheriting a massive social welfare bill.

I’d be happy with a Celtic Union as a compromise but can’t see it.

Nqp15hhu

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It should be an honest and open discussion with nobody 'pandered' to. Nationalists and republicans will have to compromise a bit and so will Unionists and ALL have to remain democrats and accept the will of the majority as agreed.

But the GFA pandered to Nationalists..

FrancieBrady

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

But the GFA pandered to Nationalists..

A siege mentality iff ever there was one.
The GFA ensured nationalists would never again have to live in a sectarian statelet where they were 2nd class citizens.

The GFA normalised NI, or tried to, as it has not yet 25 years later been fully implemented.

Nqp15hhu

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A siege mentality iff ever there was one.
The GFA ensured nationalists would never again have to live in a sectarian statelet where they were 2nd class citizens.

The GFA normalised NI, or tried to, as it has not yet 25 years later been fully implemented.

No, the GFA provided them with the option to vote for a United Ireland in return for IRA giving up their arms. That IS pandering to nationalists.

So don’t say that Unionists shouldn’t be pandered to because you’re then implying that we should have no rights and should be treated as “second class citizens”.

FrancieBrady

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

No, the GFA provided them with the option to vote for a United Ireland in return for IRA giving up their arms. That IS pandering to nationalists.

So don’t say that Unionists shouldn’t be pandered to because you’re then implying that we should have no rights and should be treated as “second class citizens”.

Again with the victimhood and siege mentality. The GFA was an 'agreement' where ALL sides made undertakings.

It recognised YOUR identity and the identity of others. And it recognised the will of the majority and the right of the people living on this island to decide their own fates.

Capt'n Midnight

McGaggs wrote: »

So once the NHS is gone, a united Ireland will follow?

Tory cuts.

In England one in ten nursing positions in the NHS are vacant.

When you factor in 1.5% inflation the 1% pay for nurses is actually a 0.5% pay cut.

The other squeeze is the PIP assessments.

Phasing out, selling off assets and outsourcing parts of the NHS to for profit providers is what Tories do.

Capt'n Midnight

martinedwards wrote: »

Not true.

The Queen is head of state of 16 member States. 33 are Republics and the remaining 5 have other monarchs

Not entirely true.

Barbados won't be needing her services after November.

Strumms

The Unionists will have to experience and feel brexit in their pockets and their daily lives for a while before their heads get turned.... but I think it will, brexit will be a catastrophe for them...

Mules

Strumms wrote: »

The Unionists will have to experience and feel brexit in their pockets and their daily lives for a while before their heads get turned.... but I think it will, brexit will be a catastrophe for them...

What if Brexit isnt a catastrophe though? Won't the pendulum towards a United Ireland swing the other way then?

trixi001

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

But the GFA pandered to Nationalists..

Seriously...it was voted on and supported by the majority of NI, It got the devolved government up and running again for the first time in years, yes there was some concessions to Nationlists and some concessions to Unionists. The unionists still maintained a veto remember...

NI from 1921 to the time of the GFA pandered to Unionists - the GFA tried to remove the pandering and end the 2nd class treatment for Nationalists

Unionists in NI weren't capable of accepting that a significant minority had different beliefs and because of the way the electoral borders had been gerrymandered the minority had little representation to effect any change, I hope in the event of a United Ireland, this isn't forgotten and we have learnt from our mistakes, and the wishes of the significant minority of the unionists in NI aren't just completely ignored.

Although under the GFA there is no reason to persuade the minority to support a UI, it will happen with or without "pandering" to unionism, if the majority want it, but it would lead for a more smoother transition if at least some previous unionists bought into the concept of a UI and felt welcomed by the Irish Government

Mules

Mules wrote: »

Anothet thing to think about is EU tax harmonisation. Ireland's economic model is based on the presence of multinationals, so unless the government has a plan b, then Ireland's future prosperity is under doubt. That depends on whether we choose EU membership or prosperity. That's something else coming down the road.

Nothing to do with a United ireland and no threat either.

Mules

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing to do with a United ireland and no threat either.

If Ireland is no longer prosperous, unification would be a less likely prospect, surely. Or do you mean that EU tax harmonisation won't affect Ireland's prosperity?

FrancieBrady

trixi001 wrote: »

Seriously...it was voted on and supported by the majority of NI, It got the devolved government up and running again for the first time in years, yes there was some concessions to Nationlists and some concessions to Unionists. The unionists still maintained a veto remember...

NI from 1921 to the time of the GFA pandered to Unionists - the GFA tried to remove the pandering and end the 2nd class treatment for Nationalists

Unionists in NI weren't capable of accepting that a significant minority had different beliefs and because of the way the electoral borders had been gerrymandered the minority had little representation to effect any change, I hope in the event of a United Ireland, this isn't forgotten and we have learnt from our mistakes, and the wishes of the significant minority of the unionists in NI aren't just completely ignored.

Although under the GFA there is no reason to persuade the minority to support a UI, it will happen with or without "pandering" to unionism, if the majority want it, but it would lead for a more smoother transition if at least some previous unionists bought into the concept of a UI and felt welcomed by the Irish Government

Look at the history. Belligerent Unionism likes to pretend that all Unionists are the same. They aren't.

We had the NEVER NEVER NEVER's with the Anglo Irish Agreement, The GFA and with parades and flags...what happened? Moderate Unionism accepted them and got on with it.
With Brexit and the Protocol we see the same from belligerent Unionism which can now only muster meeting in the upstairs rooms of pubs and depend on senior belligerent Unionist minister to invent threats to respond to.

There are more pragmatic Unionists, many more than there are belligerents.

Speedline

The_B_Man wrote: »

NI might need to go independent first for a few generations. Followed by a something similar to the UK now, but with just NI and ROI.
Then maybe later a full union.

Although I'd rather see NI and Scotland go independent and join a "Celtic Trinity" with ourselves.

But regarding the north, someone once told me that a huge percentage of jobs up there are UK government jobs. Like a third of people work for the UK govt. So if there was a United Ireland, would they lose their jobs? I'd imagine not all of them could be kept employed, which means we'd be inheriting a massive social welfare bill.

How would they replace the UK subvention if they went out on their own?

vriesmays

A united Ireland will have a gay-pride parade down Dublin's O'Connell St, but an orange parade - never never never.

FrancieBrady

vriesmays wrote: »

A united Ireland will have a gay-pride parade down Dublin's O'Connell St, but an orange parade - never never never.

As the Parades Commission has established and again, what most Unionists now accept is that they can parade where there is interest as long as they are respectful and do not antagonise. Same as anyone.

Mules

Mules wrote: »

If Ireland is no longer prosperous, unification would be a less likely prospect, surely. Or do you mean that EU tax harmonisation won't affect Ireland's prosperity?

The latter. But off topic for this thread.

VinLieger

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You could believe that the sky is made of cheese too, if you have no evidence to support that opinion, why should anyone care? Let's stick to facts.

Yes Lets stick to facts

Imreoir2 wrote: »

It will not have a major impact on the result. Unification will pass with a large majority down here if it passes in NI. Significant opposition to unification in the south is simply not there, the no vote might get 30%, on a very good day.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/tv/nolanshow/RTE_BBC_NI_Cross_Border_Survey.pdf

Heres the link to the full results from the 2015 joint BBC/RTE cross border poll

You are looking for Q.9 the results for which start on page 143

Where it shows 61% in favour if theres less tax, only 51% in favour for the same tax and unsurprisingly 25% in favour if theres more tax.

Now you will point out this top number obviously includes NI so lets move to page 152 where it shows with no changes in tax 59% of ROI respondants would still vote in favour. Thats great!

However if we move onto page 158 that number drops to 30% in favour with 48% against when asked if they would be in favour if they had to pay more tax.

Now this is only for the tax issue imagine if you add onto it the flag, anthem and the literal mountain of other issues it would be impossible to list and your idea that a vote in the south would sail through with a tiny opposition is quite simply deluded.

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Thats why southern opponants to unification are not an important consideration in the overall debate. They don't need to be won over, they can be ignored.

LOL and were back to brexiteer territory

ec18

Five Eighth wrote: »

Fair enough. Understand why you would take that view. There have been and are a number of threads discussing Northern Ireland and it's place in the modern world. From what I can gather, posters who take a similar position to your goodself don't ever mention any acknowledgement of responsibility to those of our fellow Irish men and women who live in the six counties. It's always about the Unionist community and their hardline attitude towards a UI. If a majority in the NI vote for a UI, is there any duty upon us Irish to welcome our fellow Irish people 'home'?

No I don't think that's valid, under the GFA our fellow Irish men and women in the north are at the moment allowed to identify as Irish, hold an Irish passport etc. There's far too much baggage and issues up north for a change in status at the moment or indeed in the near future. I think I'll see a United Ireland in my lifetime but it will most likely be towards the end of it

ec18

vriesmays wrote: »

A united Ireland will have a gay-pride parade down Dublin's O'Connell St, but an orange parade - never never never.

Would anyone in Dublin really care though?

Sunny Disposition

The Northern Protestants often don't really look at Orange marches as offensive, they just don't realise that's how other people see them. They think they're like St Patrick's Day parades or kids marching for Féile na nGael or that sort of thing. Unfortunately the Orange Order is unashamedly sectarian and takes a very hard line with Catholics. It really needs to become a bit like the GAA which is unashamedly nationalist, but allows people of any religion or none to join in.
Again, unionism is just very slow to change with the times.
Felt a bit of foreboding watching the TV last night, partition is on the political agenda now in a big way, the border poll is coming. There are going to be difficult times ahead. Hopefully the country can be reunited completely peacefully, with plenty of accommodation for unionism.

Junkyard Tom

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

You forgetting the IRA? Same thing my dear.

Again I'll ask you specifically what would Unionist violence hope to achieve? Remember now the majority in the North have just voted to unite Ireland and finally end British jurisdiction for good.

Understand that the idea of being able to prevent the a 32 county Ireland from ending British jurisdiction is a hilariously stupid notion after a pro-UI vote. Remember too that Belfast and Derry are majority nationalist cities lost to a United Ireland.

So Unionist terrorism, for what exactly? UVF controlled enclaves? What's the plan?

shootermacg

Can't really see it happening. You have two things that will stand in the way.

Identity: You have a large community that is totally anti anything to do with the republic of Ireland, this isn't likely to change anytime soon.

Self-Interest: The more pragmatic Northern Irish are more libel to play both countries off against each other in the hope of benefitting from both.

Nqp15hhu

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

No, it’s not an attempt at a thick Scottish accent. It IS the local dialect.

Not much different to Geordie or Glaswegian.

Sunny Disposition

If unionism can't win a border poll then it is sunk, there's nothing violence can achieve then. But it is a psychologically difficult time for unionists, they need the south to be very helpful and accommodating. Unionists need to be told very clearly and repeatedly that their old enemies in Republicanism won't be lording it over them or their children in a future united Ireland.

ec18

ec18 wrote: »

Would anyone in Dublin really care though?

Last time a major riot broke out. And that wasn’t an orange parade per say.

Junkyard Tom

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

If unionism can't win a border poll then it is sunk, there's nothing violence can achieve then.

Precisely. The unionist ultras don't seem to understand that the moment a pro-UI vote takes place NI loses its legitimacy. Unionists will be welcomed into a United Ireland where they can agitate for keeping Ireland close to Britain via retaining the Common Travel Area, retaining reciprocal rights, keeping Ireland out of Shengen, and so on, but there will be no PUL ethnostate in Antrim.

Junkyard Tom

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Precisely. The unionist ultras don't seem to understand that the moment a pro-UI vote takes place NI loses its legitimacy. Unionists will be welcomed into a United Ireland where they can agitate for keeping Ireland close to Britain via retaining the Common Travel Area, retaining reciprocal rights, keeping Ireland out of Shengen, and so on, but there will be no PUL ethnostate in Antrim.

Separatist groups could fight over a postage stamp.

Junkyard Tom

Deleted User wrote: »

Separatist groups could fight over a postage stamp.

Sure but you can't make a country out of a postage stamp.

Do you see a viable re-partition here?

Stovepipe

I am a Northern Irish British citizen. Nobody is going to tell me otherwise, or force an alien identity upon me.

"alien identity"? so you identify more with Surrey or Kent or Cardiff or Edinburgh or Lerwick, rather than the people with whom you share an island? Are you sure you're not a Falkland Islander? The culture of NI is inextricably linked with the Republic,like it or not. Trying to play the Ulster Scots card is fatuous. You live in Ireland,not some fantasy country to the West of Mainland Britain that is miraculously linked to London via Scotland. You have complete freedom to go anywhere on this island and nobody will give you the slightest attention. Ironically, Southerners can't do that in parts of NI because the locals can't abide our flag.

votecounts

Why would you want to persuade such a horrible group of individuals?
https://twitter.com/JoeBrolly1993/status/1374173644067311621

Nqp15hhu

Stovepipe wrote: »

I am a Northern Irish British citizen. Nobody is going to tell me otherwise, or force an alien identity upon me.

"alien identity"? so you identify more with Surrey or Kent or Cardiff or Edinburgh or Lerwick, rather than the people with whom you share an island? Are you sure you're not a Falkland Islander? The culture of NI is inextricably linked with the Republic,like it or not. Trying to play the Ulster Scots card is fatuous. You live in Ireland,not some fantasy country to the West of Mainland Britain that is miraculously linked to London via Scotland. You have complete freedom to go anywhere on this island and nobody will give you the slightest attention. Ironically, Southerners can't do that in parts of NI because the locals can't abide our flag.

The fact that you are asking this question and don’t know the answer already indicates a lack of understanding of life here.

I obviously don’t have the same identity as southerners given that I grew up in another country amongst a different culture. If you can’t accept that fact, that’s your problem.

maccored

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

The fact that you are asking this question and don’t know the answer already indicates a lack of understanding of life here.

I obviously don’t have the same identity as southerners given that I grew up in another country amongst a different culture. If you can’t accept that fact, that’s your problem.

life in the north or life as part of a Unionist minority who doesn't wish to embrace the changes that have happened unionism over the past 50 years? I'd say the latter.

Nqp15hhu

maccored wrote: »

life in the north or life as part of a Unionist minority who doesn't wish to embrace the changes that have happened unionism over the past 50 years? I'd say the latter.

Unionism has absolutely nothing to do with culture and way of life, here in Northern Ireland.

I am a 25 year old, so talk about 50 years ago. I wasn’t alive.

antgal23

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Yes, it’s all rather daft to go out of your way to tell someone what their identity and nationality is.

I am a Northern Irish British citizen. Nobody is going to tell me otherwise, or force an alien identity upon me.

You wouldn’t see people telling Pennsylvania Dutch what their identity is.

This all stems from a hated and anti British attitude, with a desire to remove all British influence from this island. Well I’m afraid that may be your wish but there’ll always be Ulster Scots people here in NI.

Just shows you up to be ignorant.

Can I conclude you identity as being Northern Irish British and Ulster Scots?

And if so, you identify as being Irish, British and Scottish ( at the same time)?