United Ireland....... Persuade the unionists.....

astrofool

We'll need to do whatever gets the "for" vote in the republic to about 55%, if it's a landslide in the republic, the sacrifices we're making (e.g. flag, anthem, language declarations and on and on) won't have gone far enough to get the North onside.

For Forks Sake

Deleted User wrote: »

If we could unify and then fast forward 20 years things would be great.

Arlene herself said she would leave if unity happened. Hopefully the hardcore would move to Scotland or England if they really couldn’t stomach a UI. Maybe the British and EU and maybe even the US could provide grants to relocate them.

PokeHerKing wrote: »

If the majority on the island vote for a UI, once we've the Irish army on the streets of the six counties we can start to round up all the Sammy Wilsons and have the container ship waiting to sail them all back to Scotland.

85603 wrote: »

Wouldn't be arsed pandering to them.

I'd offer them re-partition, as what good are they to us? Just going to be trouble.
Give them a little Israel up in Antrim.

If I was a unionist I'd take that offer since time is not on their side.

Fair bang of Judenfrei off these sort of attitudes.

VinLieger

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Fair bang of Judenfrei off these sort of attitudes.

What do you think Tiocfaidh ár lá actually means to a sizeable number of republicans?

trixi001

VinLieger wrote: »

Those polls should be taken with a grain of salt, they are done without any details being put to them like the massive economic and security implications not to mention the very real question and possibility of needing to change our flag and national anthem and possibly a lot more to appease the unionists.

Your attitude by the way is exactly the same as the bexiteers, any poll on such a divisive and massive change in the status quo should never require a simple majority of 50.1%.

Simply ignoring the wishes and concerns of a large proportion of people North and South of the border so you can masturbate over your united Ireland fantasy becoming a reality will not lead to a successful reunification.

I have never understood this argument - Democracy means accepting the will of the majority - if 50.1% of people vote for something, why should the minority actually win the vote via nothing changing?

I can understand that a small majority means things are more difficult, but it doesn't mean the majority should not be respected

The Nationalists in the North have had to live as per Democracy for years as the majority in NI were in favour it being part of the UK, but the tide is turning. and in the not too distant future 50%+1 may be in favour of a United & Free Ireland, why should the small majority matter..its still a majority, refusing to accept it is refusing democracy to the same people that have had to accept the democratic will of the people for 100 years before!

As for how it will work from an Irish perspective - it is the opportunity to create a "New" Ireland - perhaps consider decentralising power - give each province some form of super council.
Consider the how good elements of the North could be rolled out throughout Ireland (NHS?)

It will not simply be a matter of the North joining the South, it will be the 2 states merging to create a new state.

And yes, the unionists will need to be considered, as even in a UI they still form a sizeable majority (Roughly half of the North is unionist - they will be about 14% of the overall Irish population) - and considering how often there is currently a coalition government they may form part of the government some terms.
The unionist traditions are already honoured in Donegal - an orange order parade in Rossnowlagh is held every year without any problems.

For the sake of Long Term Peace Ireland should be united - yes in the short term there may be problems but with the support of the UK, EU, & USA (and i do believe there will be significant support - financial and otherwise) these can be sorted.

Look through history - Irish "Troubles" kick off roughly every 30-50 years
1798
1848 - Young Irelanders
1867 - Fenian Rising
1916 - Easter Rising, Then Civil War
1940's - Northern Campaign
1970's - 2000 - Troubles

Once the older generations die, and the actual reality of war/revolution are forgotten, there is always a possibility of violence restarting in the North

The North has seen sustained periods of violence since partition, the South (other than the immediate period after partition) has seen little or none despite there being people of a unionist mindset living in it for a long number of years - i would said very few people in the South now want to join the UK.
The same didn't happen in the North, those not wanting to live in the UK, never forgot they are Irish, their Children won't forget - its an Island, it will always be strange for one part of the Island to belong to another Island - and this will lead to simmering tensions for years to come with the possibility for significant violence

For the sake of my children and their children i really hope for a united Ireland in the not too distant future

Sunny Disposition

Democracy will have to win. If a majority in both jurisdictions vote for a UI it just has to happen, and, while it is very unfortunate that one generation has to deal with the fallout, that's how it is. Unfortunately there's not going to be a consensus, more chance of Gerry Adams becoming head of the commonwealth. There's a need to start planning right now for a unionist minority in a united Ireland. The political establishment doesn't want to know, but it is imminent.

Renno123

Del2005 wrote: »

Why do we need to change our already inclusive flag to another inclusive flag? Look at the still ongoing hatred of Ireland's Call to see how people will react. to changing our anthem.

The union jack flag is also inclusive. Ireland is still represented on this flag, yet we don't see it as a representation of our people. This is the same reason there will be a new Irish flag in a U.I

Zebra3

Renno123 wrote: »

The union jack flag is also inclusive. Ireland is still represented on this flag, yet we don't see it as a representation of our people. This is the same reason there will be a new Irish flag in a U.I

The Union Jack is not inclusive.

It claims jurisdiction over all of Ireland.

The flag was altered in 1801 to reflect that but was never realtered in 1922 to reflect the new reality.

VinLieger

Renno123 wrote: »

The union jack flag is also inclusive. Ireland is still represented on this flag, yet we don't see it as a representation of our people. This is the same reason there will be a new Irish flag in a U.I

Emm you know the orange on the tricolour is intended to represent the protestants in NI?

If a new flag is required i would absolutely vote against reunification.

For Forks Sake

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Fair bang of Judenfrei off these sort of attitudes.

Not sure why you are quoting my post, it’s pretty clear I’m referring to those unionists who couldn’t stomach a united ireland.

ShatterAlan

martinedwards wrote: »

Ok instead of the usual, yellow numberplate/petrol bomb as soon as you cross the border/Derry girls are easy thread......

Boards seems to be a strongly Pro united Ireland community

Ok, lets say that there is a border poll.

Having a minority with strong anti ruler views has historically not been the most peaceful system in the North.

so,

how would you persuade the folk that are terrified of all the things that they PERCEIVE to be against them in an all island Irish nation?

and lets be honest, "Suck it up, my auntie Brigit was spat on by a brit soldier in 1972" isn't going to persuade the likes of Sammy Wilson that it's a good idea.

Discuss!

"Discuss"


What is this a bloody exam question?

Del2005

Renno123 wrote: »

The union jack flag is also inclusive. Ireland is still represented on this flag, yet we don't see it as a representation of our people. This is the same reason there will be a new Irish flag in a U.I

The Tri colour with the Union Flag, we aren't a boat, inset in the neutral section and The Soldiers Song as our national anthem. We are now fully inclusive for the flag and anthem.

With Scotland looking more and more likely to leave the union shouldn't an option in the vote be a merger of Northern Ireland and Scotland?

Renno123

VinLieger wrote: »

Emm you know the orange on the tricolour is intended to represent the protestants in NI?

If a new flag is required i would absolutely vote against reunification.

Yes that is exactly my point. The orange on the tri colour represents unionism/protestantism/orangism as you said.
But that community do not associate the tri colour with that. It is associated with republicanism.
It is like how Irish people do not look at a union jack and feel represented even though Ireland is represented on the flag.
A new flag would be needed, one which all sides can feel represents them.

Renno123

Del2005 wrote: »

The Tri colour with the Union Flag, we aren't a boat, inset in the neutral section and The Soldiers Song as our national anthem. We are now fully inclusive for the flag and anthem.

With Scotland looking more and more likely to leave the union shouldn't an option in the vote be a merger of Northern Ireland and Scotland?

Sorry I don't understand the first paragraph. The red cross in the union jack flag is the red cross of St Patrick, which makes up the Irish connection.
My point was that even though this is on the flag, Irish people do not associate that flag with Ireland, the same way the tri colour is not seen by unionism to represent them.

VinLieger

Renno123 wrote: »

Yes that is exactly my point. The orange on the tri colour represents unionism/protestantism/orangism as you said.
But that community do not associate the tri colour with that. It is associated with republicanism.
It is like how Irish people do not look at a union jack and feel represented even though Ireland is represented on the flag.
A new flag would be needed, one which all sides can feel represents them.

Fair enough but i honestly believe if this is all discussed correctly prior to a reunification poll in the south where the specifics of how and what would begin happening if both votes succeeded then i dont think it would pass here.

I do not believe the vast majority of those who say they would vote yes have ever considered the idea of a new flag let alone a new anthem and the hundreds of other changes that would be required to appease unionists.

Del2005

Renno123 wrote: »

Sorry I don't understand the first paragraph. The red cross in the union jack flag is the red cross of St Patrick, which makes up the Irish connection.
My point was that even though this is on the flag, Irish people do not associate that flag with Ireland, the same way the tri colour is not seen by unionism to represent them.

That's my point. We'll never agree on what our new flag or national anthem will be. How will we deal with the difficult bits? The vote is the easy bit, what we vote for is what will kill this united Ireland social media hype.

Leave it a few decades and demographics will give us a United Republic of Ireland or vote in a few years for some bastard State that neither side is happy with..

Capt'n Midnight

Room1o1 wrote: »

If a united Ireland did happen would it mean a new state and a new constitution? Would need to think about that alot first

What would need to be changed ?



Maybe we could roll back Articles 2 and 3 :pac:
But there'd be no need. So it's not going to happen, no need to think about it.


Politically FF and/or FG will horse trade all night with the DUP in preference to SF. At this stage I'm not sure the Green party would deal with SF if there was another option. And the parties of the left coming together as a rival bloc ? Dream on.

Might be interesting to see how the balance between the UUP and DUP goes.

The SDLP and FF might merge.

It would be interesting. But whatever the combination any new government would be centre right

StevenToast

A confederate united Ireland...leave the 6 counties in the commonwealth...its a token thing...

Once elizabeth windsor dies and charles takes over...the monarchy will lose its "appeal"...

Give unionists a few token gestures and that will quieten them after a few years...

antgal23

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The North needs to sort out it's social and economic crap before it should be allowed into the Republic. It simply has far too much nasty baggage, and the Unionists are only part of that. The Republicans are just as bad, and are highly unlikely to calmly settle down to play good citizens in Ireland.

I think the threat of a United Ireland would get me off my arse, and willing to publicly campaign against it. Unification would fck this country up for decades (if not longer) due having to deal with all that ****e.

Thanks very much for sharing your opinion

It's well thought out, balanced, educated and shows a deep understanding of the 6 counties

antgal23

Five Eighth wrote: »

Fair enough. Understand why you would take that view. There have been and are a number of threads discussing Northern Ireland and it's place in the modern world. From what I can gather, posters who take a similar position to your goodself don't ever mention any acknowledgement of responsibility to those of our fellow Irish men and women who live in the six counties. It's always about the Unionist community and their hardline attitude towards a UI. If a majority in the NI vote for a UI, is there any duty upon us Irish to welcome our fellow Irish people 'home'?

No one in the South has a monopoly on being Irish so no need to " welcome" anyone

For a new Ireland to work it won't be a UI as one recognises today. It might be an island of 4 provinces, where some powers are devolved, of course there'll be a national parliament regional identities should be promoted.

Edgware

bilbot79 wrote: »

The answer is to give every single unionist' in the north a 50k relocation bonus to move to the UK. The British and Irish governments split the bill. Everybody wins.

Why should we subsidise Winston and Norman to buy houses in Glasgow?

McGinniesta

Northern Ireland is a political, economic and social black hole.

Let the brits have it or more importantly let them pay for it

Nqp15hhu

All these nationalists and not one Unionist in here. Personally I'm tired of hearing about a United Ireland, it's a constant bombardment from people who don't live here and who largely hate Britain.

Nqp15hhu

trixi001 wrote: »

I have never understood this argument - Democracy means accepting the will of the majority - if 50.1% of people vote for something, why should the minority actually win the vote via nothing changing?

I can understand that a small majority means things are more difficult, but it doesn't mean the majority should not be respected

The Nationalists in the North have had to live as per Democracy for years as the majority in NI were in favour it being part of the UK, but the tide is turning. and in the not too distant future 50%+1 may be in favour of a United & Free Ireland, why should the small majority matter..its still a majority, refusing to accept it is refusing democracy to the same people that have had to accept the democratic will of the people for 100 years before!

As for how it will work from an Irish perspective - it is the opportunity to create a "New" Ireland - perhaps consider decentralising power - give each province some form of super council.
Consider the how good elements of the North could be rolled out throughout Ireland (NHS?)

It will not simply be a matter of the North joining the South, it will be the 2 states merging to create a new state.

And yes, the unionists will need to be considered, as even in a UI they still form a sizeable majority (Roughly half of the North is unionist - they will be about 14% of the overall Irish population) - and considering how often there is currently a coalition government they may form part of the government some terms.
The unionist traditions are already honoured in Donegal - an orange order parade in Rossnowlagh is held every year without any problems.

For the sake of Long Term Peace Ireland should be united - yes in the short term there may be problems but with the support of the UK, EU, & USA (and i do believe there will be significant support - financial and otherwise) these can be sorted.

Look through history - Irish "Troubles" kick off roughly every 30-50 years
1798
1848 - Young Irelanders
1867 - Fenian Rising
1916 - Easter Rising, Then Civil War
1940's - Northern Campaign
1970's - 2000 - Troubles

Once the older generations die, and the actual reality of war/revolution are forgotten, there is always a possibility of violence restarting in the North

The North has seen sustained periods of violence since partition, the South (other than the immediate period after partition) has seen little or none despite there being people of a unionist mindset living in it for a long number of years - i would said very few people in the South now want to join the UK.
The same didn't happen in the North, those not wanting to live in the UK, never forgot they are Irish, their Children won't forget - its an Island, it will always be strange for one part of the Island to belong to another Island - and this will lead to simmering tensions for years to come with the possibility for significant violence

For the sake of my children and their children i really hope for a united Ireland in the not too distant future

What is your evidence of this? I was baptised in the Catholic church, I am a Unionist as are my family members and indeed my wider family. None of us will be voting for a United Ireland. There are plenty of people out there like me and my family, so what is your confidence in this being a success?

I was raised in Northern Ireland, it's my country, it's not a prison, we are free, and we have our own devolved government and parliament. We have more control than any region in the south has. You refer to two countries on one island, you are probably akin to the typical Nationalist on here who would support the breaking up of Great Britain into separate countries; this is highly, highly hypocritical. So, no I don't agree with this comment whatsoever, being on the same landmass does not infer that you have to be one country there are plenty of successful examples of this.

I am afraid I don't get all teary eyed over Ireland, it's not my country as I just said. So this is all an alien concept to me and something you would have to comprehend, accept and understand if you're going to be forcing me into a United Ireland. Which brings me to the point of violence, you referenced Nationalist violence and their unwillingness to accept NI's existence, well what about Unionists? Do you think that Unionists don't matter and only Nationalist violence matters?

That's not a very United Ireland is it?

Quite frankly as alluded to earlier, I am tired of hearing about a United Ireland. It's a constant bombardment of nagging about it day in day out. The Republic will never be my country, it's not where I was born, I don't have roots or any connection to it. I don't care that its on the same landmass.

I find it weird how the republic wants to be independent but slides up to the EU and does everything they want. They never do anything off their own accord. I am glad we are in the U.K., a larger country and able to access vaccinations quickly and efficiently.

And it would just be a flipping over of the current divisions that we have. Perhaps we could have more links (but not forced disconnections from Great Britain) with the south, but I don't see a United Ireland solving our division. And I don't think its right that you would want to form a United Ireland and forget about the other side.

Rikand

They should just strike out on their own as Northern Ireland. Rid themselves of the Brits and tell us to kindly **** off too. Just go it alone. A lot of them identify as Northern Irish anyway

Nqp15hhu

Rikand wrote: »

They should just strike out on their own as Northern Ireland. Rid themselves of the Brits and tell us to kindly **** off too. Just go it alone. A lot of them identify as Northern Irish anyway

I would be quite happy for a independent Northern Ireland. As stated above I don't feel Irish or have any affinity or connection to the south whatsoever.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Democracy will have to win. If a majority in both jurisdictions vote for a UI it just has to happen, and, while it is very unfortunate that one generation has to deal with the fallout, that's how it is. Unfortunately there's not going to be a consensus, more chance of Gerry Adams becoming head of the commonwealth. There's a need to start planning right now for a unionist minority in a united Ireland. The political establishment doesn't want to know, but it is imminent.

But it’s not and most likely not in any of our lifetimes. Like I have said before, once the republicans/catholics are informed of what a UI entails, what they will lose, what it will cost them, they won’t want it either and hopefully that will be the end of it.

VinLieger

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

But it’s not and most likely not in any of our lifetimes. Like I have said before, once the republicans/catholics are informed of what a UI entails, what they will lose, what it will cost them, they won’t want it either and hopefully that will be the end of it.

Indeed, nobody answering polls on a UI today has ever considered the possibility of losing the tri-colour or a the myriad of other changes that would be required for unionist appeasement let alone the economic and security issues that will put off everyone else.


And the thing is these issues have to be discussed prior to any poll in the south or north lest we repeat the idiocy of brexit and go into a UI poll without any coherent and confirmed vision of what it would actually be.

Strumms

The rest of the UK would say good luck in a heartbeat..

For a population of 1.9 million people they benefit to the tune of about 9.2 billion a year from the rest of the UK...

According to the psni’s own numbers in the last decade, the highest cost for one financial year for them to just police and manage parades, protests and related disorder was 22 million.

Nqp15hhu

Strumms wrote: »

The rest of the UK would say good luck in a heartbeat..

For a population of 1.9 million people they benefit to the tune of about 9.2 billion a year from the rest of the UK...

According to the psni’s own numbers in the last decade, the highest cost for one financial year for them to just police and manage parades, protests and related disorder was 22 million.

I don’t care what people in GB think. And you will have all of those costs when you supposedly take us on.

Nqp15hhu

VinLieger wrote: »

Fair enough but i honestly believe if this is all discussed correctly prior to a reunification poll in the south where the specifics of how and what would begin happening if both votes succeeded then i dont think it would pass here.

I do not believe the vast majority of those who say they would vote yes have ever considered the idea of a new flag let alone a new anthem and the hundreds of other changes that would be required to appease unionists.

I don’t think people in the south understand Northern Ireland. Reading the other thread about visiting they are so ignorant and lacking in knowledge. Just the same as people in England.