Government won't fund Dublin whitewater rafting attraction

is_that_so

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

With that attitude nothing would ever be done to improve the city.

Something like this would be a lot better than the derelict hole in the ground right in the middle of the city.

Dublin suffers from a mix of begrudgery, small time thinking and lack of ambition.

That is why the city has always been a boring, undistinguished, unedifying place and will remain so.

Everything is moaned about, everything is shot down.

It's suppose to be a capital city ffs but look at the state of it.

It also suffers from a city manager with notions and a fairly nutty leftie council who can barely agree budgets and have height issues.
No problem with making it better but €25m on things that can make life better for all its citizens. This really doesn't do that at all.

Meirleach

I don't live in Dublin but I didn't have any problems with this in theory.

We've crap weather and generally poor recreational facilities in this country. It'd be nice to have some other places to go with a bunch of friends that isn't the pub!

If this turned out to be commercially viable and used it'd be great to see more things like it around the country.

timmyntc

When this was first proposed - it was proposed at that site for a number of reasons, chiefly:

1) The site is a wet hole in the ground. It will never be a big office building or apartment complex.
2) Docklands development levies. DCC collect and ringfence monies that have to be spent in the docklands, and cant be spent on housing.
3) Sports capital funding - the proposal was made with sports capital funding in mind - money that cannot be spent on housing, can only be spent on sports.

The design as first proposed would mean no money taken away from the homeless or the housing crisis, and would mean a nice new amenity for Dublin city.


These things are not either or - we can build amenities whilst building housing. The M20 getting built will not steal money away from the homeless - they are separate budgets. Same applies/applied here.

is_that_so

timmyntc wrote: »

When this was first proposed - it was proposed at that site for a number of reasons, chiefly:

1) The site is a wet hole in the ground. It will never be a big office building or apartment complex.
2) Docklands development levies. DCC collect and ringfence monies that have to be spent in the docklands, and cant be spent on housing.
3) Sports capital funding - the proposal was made with sports capital funding in mind - money that cannot be spent on housing, can only be spent on sports.

The design as first proposed would mean no money taken away from the homeless or the housing crisis, and would mean a nice new amenity for Dublin city.


These things are not either or - we can build amenities whilst building housing. The M20 getting built will not steal money away from the homeless - they are separate budgets. Same applies/applied here.

Sports funding is pushing it TBH for a tiny minority sport. If they do want to cater for it, they could provide a facility to cater for a lot more similar sports elsewhere but that's then that's Sports Council not DCC. Wet holes in the ground can be filled with more modest, far less costly proposals. It all has echoes of the Millennium clock and the Floozy!

fmlarnapairce

ted1 wrote: »

What’s the population of Galway??

i'm sure you can google it and find out. Google the population of the county, Connacht and surrounding neighbouring counties as well while you are at it.

Skyfloater

Deleted User wrote: »

Who should they? Should race goers pay for the vast amount of money spent on their sport?

This isn’t just for canoeists anyway.

So I get it that you want a shiny new and very expensive toy to play with, and you want the mugs(taxpayers) to pay for building it. Then keep paying for it through an annual subsidy, when it inevitably becomes a white elephant.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

City needs a bit more variety, but this would only work for me if it was open to everyone.

If it's just a rich play-paradise for post-millenial yuppies, then yeah - let it die.

shesty

I saw this article a few weeks ago which seemed to make more sense to me.



https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/council-urged-to-swap-white-water-rafting-plan-for-outdoor-pool-complex-40034132.html


Can't see any point to a white water rafting attraction in the middle of a Dublin Business district to be honest. Bit silly.

Mimon

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

City needs a bit more variety, but this would only work for me if it was open to everyone.

If it's just a rich play-paradise for post-millenial yuppies, then yeah - let it die.

Agree. Any ideas as an alternative for the space? Was thinking peddle boats/small boats that anyone could use but maybe a bit lame if in such a small area.

Kermit.de.frog

is_that_so wrote: »

Sports funding is pushing it TBH for a tiny minority sport. If they do want to cater for it, they could provide a facility to cater for a lot more similar sports elsewhere but that's then that's Sports Council not DCC. Wet holes in the ground can be filled with more modest, far less costly proposals. It all has echoes of the Millennium clock and the Floozy!

Modesty is Dublin's problem tbh.

It's why the city doesn't offer much. We don't think big enough, don't take risks and as a result we have not a good city even by British second rate provincial cities standard.

Look at the building height issue raised for example.

People here seem scared to take the next step for the city and it's always been that way.

I remember two tech workers a knew a couple of years a go who were moving on from Dublin having arrived here not long previous.

They said to me that Dublin just doesn't offer enough, it's too small time, it's not exciting or appealing enough. There colleagues thought similar.

The thing is I couldn't disagree with them and it's sad people just don't stay because of this inertia and failure to make anything happen.

Opportunities arise all the time to improve the place but the usual suspects shoot them down.

Dublin is really a depressing restricted place.

ted1

fmlarnapairce wrote: »

i'm sure you can google it and find out. Google the population of the county, Connacht and surrounding neighbouring counties as well while you are at it.

And it’ll be tiny compared to the catchment area of the IFSC

James Brown

I'm all for investing in amenities for the public, but this and where is was planned is a niche item for a few. People can do water sports in many areas in this small country. No need for such a thing in the city center. They've some cheek IMO, if they were asked to build a YMCA type facility open to all they'd tell you were to go.

ted1

shesty wrote: »

I saw this article a few weeks ago which seemed to make more sense to me.



https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/council-urged-to-swap-white-water-rafting-plan-for-outdoor-pool-complex-40034132.html


Can't see any point to a white water rafting attraction in the middle of a Dublin Business district to be honest. Bit silly.

There’s an outdoor pool at Clontarf, DLRCoCo are filling in their outdoor pool. Dublin City can’t keep their indoor pools open.

odyssey06

ted1 wrote: »

There’s an outdoor pool at Clontarf, DLRCoCo are filling in their outdoor pool. Dublin City can’t keep their indoor pools open.

The outdoor pool in Clontarf may as well not exist.
It's just there to allow the restaurant to open.
Not operated by DCC or has access to the general public.
* pre-covid

timmyntc

James Brown wrote: »

I'm all for investing in amenities for the public, but this and where is was planned is a niche item for a few. People can do water sports in many areas in this small country. No need for such a thing in the city center. They've some cheek IMO, if they were asked to build a YMCA type facility open to all they'd tell you were to go.

This would be open to all - rafting is open to everyone. Don't need to be a kayak/canoeist. Similar facilities in the UK are open to all, but not nearly as accessible in terms of transport links as the proposed Dublin one would be.

fmlarnapairce

ted1 wrote: »

And it’ll be tiny compared to the catchment area of the IFSC

i'm sure you will enlighten me

TheIrishGrover

Money should absolutely be spent on public services/facilities but it should be for as many people as possible. 25 million AT LEAST to support a sport that would still require people to folk out 50 quid a go is not exactly for the masses. And there are no other benefits for it. We are not suddenly going to start churning out professional kayakers or millions of euros in exclusive TV rights for Dublin kayak club. It will remain out of reach for the majority, the VAST majority of the public.

For decades governments and institutions and various bodies have tried decentralisation and it was like pulling teeth. Rarely worked. So everything went to Dublin.

Now we can see that decentralisation can/does work. The world is not going to go back to pre-Covid situation anytime soon. Even when restrictions are relaxed you are going to find many more people working from home or remotely, outside of Dublin.

Someone mentioned Galway to which they received the glib reply "What's the population of Galway?". So kayakers from Dublin cannot drive but Kayakers from anywhere else in the country can? What about Limerick or Cork or Waterford or anywhere along the Shannon?

So fine, go for this if it's privately funded. If it's publicly funded then go somewhere where you will get more bang for your buck. Where there are less facilities instead of the heart of the capital city. Where this investment would be appreciated.

Dublin will always be the capital but more and more people are going to be working further from the city than ever before. Most people moved to Dublin out of necessity rather than choice and, now that we can see that other options are available many people will prefer to stay away if possible. We don't want it to turn into a wasteland but we also don't want everything to go there. Especially since it makes more sense to go elsewhere.

James Brown

timmyntc wrote: »

This would be open to all - rafting is open to everyone. Don't need to be a kayak/canoeist. Similar facilities in the UK are open to all, but not nearly as accessible in terms of transport links as the proposed Dublin one would be.

I don't believe it would in practice. What inner city kid or family has a kayak?
It'll be a selling point for property in the area and something local companies might avail off in team building.
I expect there'd be some form of board dictating who gets the use of it, which is were the riff raff are sorted.
My local youth club growing up was run by a committee. They decided who got to do what, which sounds great until the often petty politics comes in. We'd one group thrown out of the facilities because a committee member's daughter had been banned for misbehavior. Point is this was never for the public.

ted1

fmlarnapairce wrote: »

i'm sure you will enlighten me

1/3 of the population lives within the greater Dublin area.
The LUAS alone carry’s 50 million people a year.

Outside Dublin simply doesn’t have the numbers to sustain such a project

Muahahaha

Initially I was in favour of this but then saw the cost and the actual location. Its only about 1.5 acres in size and about 120 metres from north to south. Its pretty much around the length of a GAA pitch and a little wider. So Id doubt its big enough to facilitate a proper Olympic standard kayaking course which are typically around 300 metres in length for competition. Such a course is needed in Ireland but this sounded more like a leisure facility. So we would end up in the bizarre situation where having spent 25 million on this facility our kayakers training for the Olympics would still be going abroad to train in facilities that are similar in length to what they are going to face in the Olympics itself.

Id be in favour of a kayaking facility but theres no point doing one in half measures just because there is a site with water in the city centre. That said Id say it will be a cold day in hell before we see Sport Ireland get the funding for for one, its 2021 and they still havent even built an indoor velodrome for Ireland dont mind a dedicated kayaking facility. Thats not particulary Sport Irelands fault, central govt only ever throws them a few crumbs off the table while Horse Racing Ireland gets some 70 million per year every year and the Greyhound Board are down for 16m per year every year.. GAA, Rugby, Football all get just fractions of these amounts so you can imagine things like kayaking and cycling are well well down the list when the horses and greyhounds take up a massive amount of sports budgets.

timmyntc

James Brown wrote: »

I don't believe it would in practice. What inner city kid or family has a kayak?

You dont need a kayak - you can go rafting on it instead, which is open to *everyone*

If you want to kayak, you can join a club. 90% of people who kayak in this country are part of a club, because clubs have equipment you can use.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Initially I was in favour of this but then saw the cost and the actual location. Its only about 1.5 acres in size and about 120 metres from north to south. Its pretty much around the length of a GAA pitch and a little wider. So Id doubt its big enough to facilitate a proper Olympic standard kayaking course which are typically around 300 metres in length for competition. Such a course is needed in Ireland but this sounded more like a leisure facility. So we would end up in the bizarre situation where having spent 25 million on this facility our kayakers training for the Olympics would still be going abroad to train in facilities that are similar in length to what they are going to face in the Olympics itself.

The design is not a straight line but one with turns, so it could easily hit 300m by going around the perimeter of the dock. Also whitewater centres like this are easily reconfigured also, which is a big plus for olympic training. Simply turn off the water, move stuff around, turn it back on again.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

James Brown wrote: »

I don't believe it would in practice. What inner city kid or family has a kayak?
It'll be a selling point for property in the area and something local companies might avail off in team building.
I expect there'd be some form of board dictating who gets the use of it, which is were the riff raff are sorted.
My local youth club growing up was run by a committee. They decided who got to do what, which sounds great until the often petty politics comes in. We'd one group thrown out of the facilities because a committee member's daughter had been banned for misbehavior. Point is this was never for the public.

Some swimming pools have (or had) them that they rent or lend out. You have to have done a certain amount of training in the actual siwmming pool first though.

Guffy

timmyntc wrote: »

The country does need a whitewater/slalom course of some description - we have a lot of whitewater/slalom athletes and all have to travel to the UK to nottingham or cardiff to avail of their courses.
It would be cheaper to fit an existing river with a course, but the problem then is
1) flows are not constant - will require a reservoir of some sort upstream to keep the water going through summer.
2) fisheries & environmental activists would never allow it. Rivers are too protected to do something like that

Know very little about the sport/sports involved but would have thought that the River Corrib would be ideal for this. Afaik it's the fast flowing river in Europe or at least fastest through a city.

Bubbaclaus

Whatever about this proposal, something definitely needs to go there. Currently it is just wasted muddy space, apart from when Oktober Fest is there once a year.

timmyntc

Guffy wrote: »

Know very little about the sport/sports involved but would have thought that the River Corrib would be ideal for this. Afaik it's the fast flowing river in Europe or at least fastest through a city.

It would except fisheries and environmentalists would never let it happen.

Also most of the funding for the Dublin rafting yoke was due from Dockland development levies - they have to be spent in Docklands on amenities

SteM

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Whatever about this proposal, something definitely needs to go there. Currently it is just wasted muddy space, apart from when Oktober Fest is there once a year.

Don't think they've done an Oktoberfest there for a few years now.

Larbre34

Why wouldn't they build one in the extensive Sports Campus Ireland? Plenty of space up there for a training/stroke public access facility with parking, spectator areas and the other elite facilities for S&C right alongside.

That space at George's Dock should become a public square for speeches and rallies and celebrations or whatever. The City Centre is badly lacking a large gathering spot for such things. Couldn't be better for public transport.

Jizique

SteM wrote: »

Don't think they've done an Oktoberfest there for a few years now.

Insurance ended it

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

SteM wrote: »

Don't think they've done an Oktoberfest there for a few years now.

Well, no - they haven't been allowed to!

BattleCorp

Muahahaha wrote: »

Initially I was in favour of this but then saw the cost and the actual location. Its only about 1.5 acres in size and about 120 metres from north to south. Its pretty much around the length of a GAA pitch and a little wider. So Id doubt its big enough to facilitate a proper Olympic standard kayaking course which are typically around 300 metres in length for competition. Such a course is needed in Ireland but this sounded more like a leisure facility. So we would end up in the bizarre situation where having spent 25 million on this facility our kayakers training for the Olympics would still be going abroad to train in facilities that are similar in length to what they are going to face in the Olympics itself.

Very good points. And to add that if kayakers wanted to use it, then where would they park their vans and trailers? And how secure is this parking? Kind of heartbreaking to come back to a trailer to find your gear stolen or fcuked into the Liffey.