Is boss unreasonable?

JimmyVik

Dav010 wrote: »

What if it isn’t an ambulance on the way to their house? Are you the manager going to decide what constitutes an “emergency”? Other staff may feel their need to leave is no less valid or important. Again, it is worth remembering the op’s boss did not say she couldn’t leave, only that he wanted her to let him know.

Lets stick with the OPs situation for now. Otherwise we are going off into the land of maybe and whataboutery.

beauf

Bass Reeves wrote: »

...
People need to read her original post 2-3 times because some seem to be of the opinion she just up and left

Deliberately ignoring the context is very common on boards lately.

Strumms

Dav010 wrote: »

What if it isn’t an ambulance on the way to their house? Are you the manager going to decide what constitutes an “emergency”? Other staff may feel their need to leave is no less valid or important. Again, it is worth remembering the op’s boss did not say she couldn’t leave, only that he wanted her to let him know.

It’s not up to the manager. The manager has ZERO say...There is legislation already covering it..

Force Majeure Leave : It arises where, for urgent family reasons, the immediate presence of the employee is indispensable owing to an injury or illness of a close family member.

A close family member is defined as one of the following:

A child or adopted child of the employee
The husband, wife or partner of the employee
Parent or grandparent of the employee
Brother or sister of the employee
Person to whom the employee has a duty of care (that is, he/she is acting in loco parentis)
A person in a relationship of domestic dependency with the employee
Persons of any other class (if any) as may be prescribed
The maximum amount of leave is 3 days in any 12-month period or 5 days in a 36-month period. You are entitled to be paid while you are on force majeure leave - see 'How to apply' below for more details. Your employer may grant you further leave.

The last line of the legislation is key...


You are protected against unfair dismissal for taking force majeure leave or proposing to take it.

Any company or boss acting the prick artist, simply take them to court and invite the press...

beauf

In fairness. In the OP case, the boss wasn't blocking the OP or being unfair.
It just set the OP off because of the ongoing stress. Which is often a product of being micromanaged.
Often people can't the forest for the trees because they (including managers) get slowly sucked into inefficient way of doing things.

JustAThought

Thats FM & invite the press is just lunatic bar talk - the boss did not take them to task over it, was nice and friendly, hoped all was well, and said that in the future to let him/her know if they have an emergency and have to leave the office/job. It’s quite straightforward. Its called work and you are paid for a reason - you follow the policies or rules, report to your line manager and generally behave.
As for the stress from being micromanaged - all medical conditions invented by other posters. Projection much.

The OP seems to have a chip on his/her shoulder and thinks because they are there 10
years that somehow the are now the owner or on an equal par with the owner. They’re not. They still have to follow the rules and report upwards. And in this instance they deliberately did not contact their manager to either ask or inform them that they were going to be out of the office - they contacted two others and then hung up on the owner when he rang. Sure you can coat it with any kind of historical boss hatred issues you want but it frankly smacks of not wanting to be told not to go, and not wanting to be accountable to their boss.

And AKAIK the op was paid both when their father died and they were given leave of absence for a few days ( 3 is a max in a multinational - they got 3 in a SME) and not docked when they left this time to go and follow their mother to the hospital.

I applied for a job a while back and to my shock in the screening pre-interview forms you had to answer what age bracket your parents were, whether they hd any illnesses such as alzheimers or dementia or other chronic/long-term illnesses, if you were the only carer available to them and a lode of other unsavorary and questionable questions. I was told it was for data purposes but i was 100% identifiable from the form and it was a stage 2 interview step - if you didn’t answer you were not getting the job. This was a huge employer with staff of thousands.

You can be sure the day is coming when companies start asking quiet internal questions about peoples availability to do the work they are paid for - and start managing them out or quietly organising suitabaly qualified substitutes.

If I were the OP I’d be following his rules and treading very carefully. Well paid long term specialist jobs just up the road will be increasingly hard to find and there is an ever increasing workforce available to do them - or gagging to be given a visa to come here to do them - and at a far lesser wage. No doubt they will be happy to follow company policy and be at their desk while drawing their salary - or have the basic cop on and manners to let their boss know before they expect to draw their saLary for not being at their desk and not telling their boss that they have disappeared or hanging up or refusing to talk when answering his calls. None of this looks good for the OP - and in a court its the boss who comes
out smelling of roses here - definately
not the OP.

Dav010

JimmyVik wrote: »

Lets stick with the OPs situation for now. Otherwise we are going off into the land of maybe and whataboutery.

Ok, let’s stick to the op’s situation. She had time and the presence of mind to inform two other people about leaving, but not her manager. Is that concise enough for you?

If you want to expand that to comment on why the boss might want to be informed of her leaving, or why he is such a bad manager, then you have to consider the precedent not informing him sets for other situations where employees feel they should leave early without informing him.

Bass Reeves

JustAThought wrote: »

Thats FM & invite the press is just lunatic bar talk - the boss did not take them to task over it, was nice and friendly, hoped all was well, and said that in the future to let him/her know if they have an emergency and have to leave the office/job. It’s quite straightforward. Its called work and you are paid for a reason - you follow the policies or rules, report to your line manager and generally behave.
As for the stress from being micromanaged - all medical conditions invented by other posters. Projection much.

The OP seems to have a chip on his/her shoulder and thinks because they are there 10
years that somehow the are now the owner or on an equal par with the owner. They’re not. They still have to follow the rules and report upwards. And in this instance they deliberately did not contact their manager to either ask or inform them that they were going to be out of the office - they contacted two others and then hung up on the owner when he rang. Sure you can coat it with any kind of historical boss hatred issues you want but it frankly smacks of not wanting to be told not to go, and not wanting to be accountable to their boss.

And AKAIK the op was paid both when their father died and they were given leave of absence for a few days ( 3 is a max in a multinational - they got 3 in a SME) and not docked when they left this time to go and follow their mother to the hospital.

I applied for a job a while back and to my shock in the screening pre-interview forms you had to answer what age bracket your parents were, whether they hd any illnesses such as alzheimers or dementia or other chronic/long-term illnesses, if you were the only carer available to them and a lode of other unsavorary and questionable questions. I was told it was for data purposes but i was 100% identifiable from the form and it was a stage 2 interview step - if you didn’t answer you were not getting the job. This was a huge employer with staff of thousands.

You can be sure the day is coming when companies start asking quiet internal questions about peoples availability to do the work they are paid for - and start managing them out or quietly organising suitabaly qualified substitutes.

If I were the OP I’d be following his rules and treading very carefully. Well paid long term specialist jobs just up the road will be increasingly hard to find and there is an ever increasing workforce available to do them - or gagging to be given a visa to come here to do them - and at a far lesser wage. No doubt they will be happy to follow company policy and be at their desk while drawing their salary - or have the basic cop on and manners to let their boss know before they expect to draw their saLary for not being at their desk and not telling their boss that they have dissappeared or answering his calls.

First off I will ask you one question as if you were an owner manager which would you prefer what the OP did sort the priority work and inform her senior work colleague in the building the situation or ring him and tell I rushing out the door it's a family emergency. The job is half done you have access to my computer as an administrator I send you a quick email with details of how much is complete.


That interview you did the company is letting itself wide open for a discrimination case. Any unsuccessful applicant who'es parents suffer from any of the questions they asked could take them to the WRC or just inform it of the questions at stage two interviews. It could cost them not just thousands bit hundreds of thousands. While you may ask an applicant about there health details to go beyond that is invasion of privacy.

Any applicant that takes a case can make the point they were discriminated against because of family circumstances. Look at the case of the women who was expecting and was not put forward by an employment company for a temporary 18 month contract.

Bass Reeves

Dav010 wrote: »

Ok, let’s stick to the op’s situation. She had time and the presence of mind to inform two other people about leaving, but not her manager. Is that concise enough for you?

If you want to expand that to comment on why the boss might want to be informed of her leaving, or why he is such a bad manager, then you have to consider the precedent not informing him sets for other situations where employees feel they should leave early without informing him.

Like I posted as an owner manager which would you prefer what she did or if she rang and said I off its a family emergency.

beauf

JustAThought wrote: »

...I applied for a job a while back and to my shock in the screening pre-interview forms you had to answer ....

...You can be sure the day is coming when companies start asking quiet internal questions about peoples availability ...

...Well paid long term specialist jobs just up the road will be increasingly hard to find ...

Nice bit of scaremongering so people feel obliged to ignore mistreatment.

I wish them well https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-49811969

The Employment Equality Acts 1998-2015 outlaw direct, and indirect discrimination and discrimination by association at work including all aspects of employment on the grounds of gender, civil and family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, disability,

Lots of companies have terrible reputations for how they treat staff. So its not hard to avoid them. One of biggest complaints is companies can't get specialist staff. Perhaps those things are not unrelated.

Strumms

JustAThought wrote: »

Thats FM & invite the press is just lunatic bar talk -

The OP seems to have a chip on his/her shoulder and thinks because they are .

Lunatic bar talk ? You can tell that to whomever drew up said legislation, TD’s, Senators that enabled its passing and whichever president reviewed it, and signed it into law.

JimmyVik

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Like I posted as an owner manager which would you prefer what she did or if she rang and said I off its a family emergency.

They said the boss wasnt there didnt they.
They said they arranged cover and told a senior member of staff.
Whats the problem here?

Dav010

JimmyVik wrote: »

They said the boss wasnt there didnt they.
They said they arranged cover and told a senior member of staff.
Whats the problem here?

Presumably the op didn’t tell the one person that she should have, her employer. Crikey, she had time to tell everyone else apparently.

beauf

JimmyVik wrote: »

They said the boss wasnt there didnt they.
They said they arranged cover and told a senior member of staff.
Whats the problem here?

The procedure is to ring the boss. No other way is accepted as an alternative, regardless if its more efficient or not, or thats a it a rare situation.

JimmyVik

Dav010 wrote: »

Presumably the op didn’t tell the one person that she should have, her employer. Crikey, she had time to tell everyone else apparently.

I think you are over-egging the situation here.
I dont tell Bill Gates when I go home early.

Dav010

JimmyVik wrote: »

I think you are over-egging the situation here.
I dont tell Bill Gates when I go home early.

If Bill Gates is the name of your manager and policy is to inform him you need to leave, then Jimmy that is what you need to do. No shells broken.

Incidentally, I watched a bio of Bill Gates, he was/is ruthless and wasn’t shy about cutting out people, so probably not the best example to use if your job was reporting directly to him.

Mrs OBumble

beauf wrote: »

Nice bit of scaremongering so people feel obliged to ignore mistreatment.

I wish them well https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-49811969



Lots of companies have terrible reputations for how they treat staff. So its not hard to avoid them. One of biggest complaints is companies can't get specialist staff. Perhaps those things are not unrelated.

I wonder how tightly the law defines family status - AFAIK its about whether you are married or have kids.

Not sure that having dependent elders or a family history of altzheimers is not necessarily protected.

JimmyVik

Dav010 wrote: »

If Bill Gates is the name of your manager and policy is to inform him you need to leave, then Jimmy that is what you need to do. No shells broken.

Incidentally, I watched a bio of Bill Gates, he was/is ruthless and wasn’t shy about cutting out people, so probably not the best example to use if your job was reporting directly to him.

And if Bill Gates is not in the office and I get a call that one of my kids is in an Ambulance then Bill Gates is expected to understand that I have more important things to do than talk to him.
A quick shout to a colleague on the way out telling them what happened and will they take care of it for me is what will happen.


Saw a girl at work drop the phone and run out in tears a few years ago.
Didnt know what happened for a few hours when one of her friends got through to her. Her little boy had been brought to hospital after being knocked down. Dont think anyone minded. Even Bill.

A bit of common sense is all that needs to be applied to this situation.

Dav010

JimmyVik wrote: »

And if Bill Gates is not in the office and I get a call that one of my kids is in an Ambulance then Bill Gates is expected to understand that I have more important things to do than talk to him.
A quick shout to a colleague on the way out telling them what happened and will they take care of it for me is what will happen.


Saw a girl at work drop the phone and run out in tears a few years ago.
Didnt know what happened for a few hours when one of her friends got through to her. Her little boy had been brought to hospital after being knocked down. Dont think anyone minded. Even Bill.

A bit of common sense is all that needs to be applied to this situation.

Are you purposely misrepresenting what happened in the op’s case?

Using the situation you experienced, did the girl run out, or did she stop and talk to two colleagues and explain that she was leaving, then not follow policy by not informing her manager, as in the op’s case?

Jimmy, by any chance are there a levels of management between you an Bill? It’s a bit outlandish to be using him as an example.

JimmyVik

Dav010 wrote: »

Are you purposely misrepresenting what happened in the op’s case?

Using the situation you experienced, did the girl run out, or did she stop and talk to two colleagues and explain that she was leaving, then not follow policy by not informing her manager, as in the op’s case?

She ran out crying.
Someone chased after her, but she was gone.
As I said it was a few hours later that she answered the phone, in the hospital.
People understood. Most people are good like that you know.
I guess you would have reprimanded her, would you?
As I said. Some common sense is all that is needed from people in these situations, not a nose in a rule book and a pointing finger.

Strumms

JimmyVik wrote: »

And if Bill Gates is not in the office and I get a call that one of my kids is in an Ambulance then Bill Gates is expected to understand that I have more important things to do than talk to him.
A quick shout to a colleague on the way out telling them what happened and will they take care of it for me is what will happen.


Saw a girl at work drop the phone and run out in tears a few years ago.
Didnt know what happened for a few hours when one of her friends got through to her. Her little boy had been brought to hospital after being knocked down. Dont think anyone minded. Even Bill.

A bit of common sense is all that needs to be applied to this situation.

Unfortunately common sense is in short supply when it pertains to the incompetent and untrustworthy elements of the employer world..

beauf

Dav010 wrote: »

If Bill Gates is the name of your manager and policy is to inform him you need to leave, then Jimmy that is what you need to do. No shells broken.

Incidentally, I watched a bio of Bill Gates, he was/is ruthless and wasn’t shy about cutting out people, so probably not the best example to use if your job was reporting directly to him.

Bill gates could insist he was everyone's line manager when it comes to leaving the office. If he was so inclined, and did.

Bill Gates was a chronic micromanager.

https://www.mensxp.com/work-life/work-environment/44395-microsoft-founder-bill-gates-memorized-the-license-plates-of-employees-to-keep-a-tab-on-them.html

Dav010

JimmyVik wrote: »

She ran out crying.
Someone chased after her, but she was gone.
As I said it was a few hours later that she answered the phone, in the hospital.
People understood. Most people are good like that you know.
I guess you would have reprimanded her, would you?
As I said. Some common sense is all that is needed from people in these situations, not a nose in a rule book and a pointing finger.

Again, that is very different from what the op described, and she was not reprimanded. The op had time to talk to two colleagues apparently, but not to follow company policy. I really hope this is clear enough.

Thanks beauf, perhaps in hindsight Jimmy, using Bill Gates as an example wasn’t the best.

Bass Reeves

Dav010 wrote: »

Presumably the op didn’t tell the one person that she should have, her employer. Crikey, she had time to tell everyone else apparently.

Dav010 wrote: »

Again, that is very different from what the op described, and she was not reprimanded. The op had time to talk to two colleagues apparently, but not to follow company policy. I really hope this is clear enough.

You still have not answered my question


Like I posted as an owner manager which would you prefer what she did or if she rang and said I off its a family emergency.

JimmyVik

beauf wrote: »

Bill gates could insist he was everyone's line manager when it comes to leaving the office. If he was so inclined, and did.

Bill Gates was a chronic micromanager.

https://www.mensxp.com/work-life/work-environment/44395-microsoft-founder-bill-gates-memorized-the-license-plates-of-employees-to-keep-a-tab-on-them.html

He does what hes told nowadays though

beauf

Dav010 wrote: »

Again, that is very different from what the op described, and she was not reprimanded. The op had time to talk to two colleagues apparently, but not to follow company policy. I really hope this is clear enough.

But what caused that was micromanaging.

beauf

JimmyVik wrote: »

He does what hes told nowadays though

Its actually interesting to her how he pretty much stopped once he hit his 30s.

https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/22/bill-gates-on-making-one-of-the-greatest-mistakes-of-all-time/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubGlua2VkaW4uY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEGAZF1E2-7HK6UhaZ0gHxuH9AvYFy8ZwTSgay0QzrBXizSQwfB1fwv0eKx9U9JbKH2w5bpn8TCH2Acd8ZiyHjscYIDuDlQwH5BBFBvRuXAfpsHzDHfWbNXVf6Rcz8l32uGyMSOun5MpRVNuILuwPaYzTW8wwBlCic1I4XvQdyHp

Also you can only obsess about work if you have no other commitments.

And you’ll have individuals who, who have, you know, health or relatives or things that [distract them]

Dav010

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You still have not answered my question


Like I posted as an owner manager which would you prefer what she did or if she rang and said I off its a family emergency.

Personally, I would be ok with her leaving as she did. But I would also be mindful that unless some policy relating to leaving early is in place, it could be open to abuse.

KeepItLight

Dav010 wrote: »

Personally, I would be ok with her leaving as she did. But I would also be mindful that unless some policy relating to leaving early is in place, it could be open to abuse.

In situations like this, there's this thing called 'discretion', which I feel is an appropriate thing for a manager to have.

Given this example, and OP's example - I wouldn't get too angsty about procedure not being followed to the letter.

On the other hand, if it was an employee who left because they were feeling ill, or because they had an appointment they forgot about, then I would be concerned about making sure whether my expectations have been properly communicated.

However, when my employee is clearly distressed or has had a traumatic experience, the last thing on my mind would be reminding them of company policy , and would not be concerned about other employees to start taking the mick re: leaving early.

Dav010

KeepItLight wrote: »

In situations like this, there's this thing called 'discretion', which I feel is an appropriate thing for a manager to have.

Given this example, and OP's example - I wouldn't get too angsty about procedure not being followed to the letter.

On the other hand, if it was an employee who left because they were feeling ill, or because they had an appointment they forgot about, then I would be concerned about making sure whether my expectations have been properly communicated.

However, when my employee is clearly distressed or has had a traumatic experience, the last thing on my mind would be reminding them of company policy , and would not be concerned about other employees to start taking the mick re: leaving early.

Do you get the sense in the op’s description that the employer got “angsty”? I’m pretty sure she described it as a “nice” conversation the following week, at the end of which he said in future would she mind letting him know at the time, that’s pretty discrete. Given that she had time to inform others, I don’t think that is asking a lot, do you?

The problem with not having a clear policy to follow, is that each employee sees their problem/need as just as important as every other. You would get warriors on here who will tell you that if you feel ill, just leave, your health is more important. What do you do then when you start informing them of your “communication expectations”?

KeepItLight

Dav010 wrote: »

Do you get the sense in the op’s description that the employer got “angsty”? I’m pretty sure she described it as a “nice” conversation the following week, at the end of which he said in future would she mind letting him know at the time, that’s pretty discrete. Given that she had time to inform others, I don’t think that is asking a lot, do you?

If he felt the need to even bring it up, then yes I do. I also think you would too, given your quote I was responding too, and the fact that you think her telling her colleagues but not telling her boss is even an issue, given the fact she was on her way out to follow the ambulance of her dying father.

If I was her manager, I wouldn't even dream of reminding her that she didn't follow protocol, given the context of the traumatic experience in question. In fact, I'd think it a pretty weird and inappropriate thing to do.