Leinster Vs Munster Pro 14 final build up thread

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

On reflection, whilst I'm obviously delighted with the result, Leinster will be scratching their heads when they review the game.

Just off the top of my head, they had two passes from ROL straight to touch, VDF done for crossing, VDF throwing a pass directly to Earls when a try seemed certain and Fardy and Conan both held up.

There's a bit of inaccuracy there that Leinster need to sharpen up on. They can't let that number of chances slip away unpunished if they reach the last 4 of Europe. I'd imagine they would convert at least one if Ringrose was present but they can't count on having everyone available.

We're integrating a bunch of guys who have played little to no rugby for Leinster in the last 2 months. A few errors and a lack of cohesion is to be expected. I was actually encouraged by the attacking game we delivered overall. It was small individual errors that cost us. And those can be tidied up. ROL has done well at 12 before. I wonder if switching the centres may have been a better idea. Either way we created a lot and just need to fine tune things now. It's not a bad place to be in with 16 of the 23 having such limited time with Leinster over the 6Ns.

prawnsambo

I still find it amazing that Devin Toner has become the most capped Leinster player of all time. I know locks can be quite long-lived in the game, but it's still an incredible achievement.

Buer

Fair points, Molloy, and I would hope to get a couple more guys back for Toulon and, potentially, Exeter. I think the midfield remains, though. ROL is a solid performer particularly in defence. Toulon aren't the team they were but they've top class creative players in their backs. With Nonu gone, they might well go with Serin, Carbonel and Belleau at 9, 10 and 12 which isn't too shabby at all.

Ryan and Doris are both due back, I'd like to think. Lancaster said several weeks ago that Doris would return within a month which would be next week if it rings true.

I'd imagine Sexton will be available but I'd also be comfortable with him sitting this out. His injury last night seemed more related to a nose that wouldn't stop bleeding than a concussion.

I wouldn't be surprised to see an entirely different front five start next week also.

Buer

Bit of an odd suggestion but Beirne should lose the scrum cap. Leinster totally nullified him last night by carrying into him and forcing him to make the tackle, limiting his ability to get a clear release and attempt a poach. He stands out a mile with the blue cap and allows the carrier to identify him with no hesitation.

Leinster did the exact same when he played for the Scarlets and actually trained with Beirne specifically in mind by getting Connors to wear the scrum cap in training.

For Ireland, he was able to hang off the tackle area and attack the ball to great success. Teams weren't ready for the threat he posed and he destroyed them. He was forced to make tackle after tackle last night in phase play.

sydthebeat

I dont think it's any coincidence that both connors and Beirne wore the same cap when playing together for Ireland....

Concentrates and confuses the defenders

theVersatile

On the contrary, I believe all fifteen players should wear cyan scrum caps

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's no coincidence that Munster haven't won a trophy since John Hayes retired.

:cool:

Burkie1203

Buer wrote: »

On reflection, whilst I'm obviously delighted with the result, Leinster will be scratching their heads when they review the game.

Just off the top of my head, they had two passes from ROL straight to touch, VDF done for crossing, VDF throwing a pass directly to Earls when a try seemed certain and Fardy and Conan both held up.

There's a bit of inaccuracy there that Leinster need to sharpen up on. They can't let that number of chances slip away unpunished if they reach the last 4 of Europe. I'd imagine they would convert at least one if Ringrose was present but they can't count on having everyone available.

ROL must have had draw HT / Leinster FT on the go

Clegg

ESPN have updated their stats for yesterday's match and it really reads poorly for Munster's midfield.

They have Murray, Carbery, De Allende and Farrell down for 4,4,4,5 missed tackles respectively. That number is right for Carbery as he was bowled over by Henshaw a few times and Fardy ran over him at least once as well. But the numbers for the others are really poor.

Burkie1203

Clegg wrote: »

ESPN have updated their stats for yesterday's match and it really reads poorly for Munster's midfield.

They have Murray, Carbery, De Allende and Farrell down for 4,4,4,5 missed tackles respectively. That number is right for Carbery as he was bowled over by Henshaw a few times and Fardy ran over him at least once as well. But the numbers for the others are really poor.

Stander 7 carries for 1m
Leinster just nullify him constantly.

DDA had 6 carries for 3m
Henshaw had 16 for 74m


I watched the post match stuff with Ferris Quinlan and Jackman. Quinlan was quite outspoken. Jackman made the point that Leinster are able to get the balance between emotion, tactics, game smarts etc and I wonder was there a hint of Munster relying on the Holland/Stander emotion a little bit and it fell flat.

Clegg

There's a gif going around of Fardy's disallowed try which shows the problems Carbery is having in defence. McGrath passes to Henshaw who cuts a diagonal line. Carbery had rushed up to make the hit but it looks like he didn't set his feet right as Henhaw blasted through his weak shoulder and makes 5 metres beyond the gain line.

The very next phase the ball is passed to Fardy who just runs over Carbery, makes three metres but is held up. I hope this is something Carbery can work on because it's a glaring weakness that was exploited ruthlessly yesterday.

prawnsambo

Clegg wrote: »

There's a gif going around of Fardy's disallowed try which shows the problems Carbery is having in defence. McGrath passes to Henshaw who cuts a diagonal line. Carbery had rushed up to make the hit but it looks like he didn't set his feet right as Henhaw blasted through his weak shoulder and makes 5 metres beyond the gain line.

The very next phase the ball is passed to Fardy who just runs over Carbery, makes three metres but is held up. I hope this is something Carbery can work on because it's a glaring weakness that was exploited ruthlessly yesterday.

He used to be a decent tackler. I'd imagine the injuries have hurt his confidence. He needs time and hopefully that will solve it.

arsebiscuits1

Buer wrote: »

Bit of an odd suggestion but Beirne should lose the scrum cap. Leinster totally nullified him last night by carrying into him and forcing him to make the tackle, limiting his ability to get a clear release and attempt a poach. He stands out a mile with the blue cap and allows the carrier to identify him with no hesitation.

Leinster did the exact same when he played for the Scarlets and actually trained with Beirne specifically in mind by getting Connors to wear the scrum cap in training.

For Ireland, he was able to hang off the tackle area and attack the ball to great success. Teams weren't ready for the threat he posed and he destroyed them. He was forced to make tackle after tackle last night in phase play.

I don't necessarily disagree with your point as he is extremely easy to spot.

There was a few moments yesterday where Beirne was lurking for a next phase poach, Leinster carried narrow so he was out of range and then targeted him for the tackle on the next phase.

Much easier to do those things when the blue cap is easy to spot.

What i disagree with is the Connors anecdote im pretty sure was offered as a tongue in cheek comment that's since become lore

arsebiscuits1

theVersatile wrote: »

On the contrary, I believe all fifteen players should wear cyan scrum caps

Off topic but at the Women's World cup in 2017, all 15 japanese players wore the exact same scrum cap.

They all had dark hair and pony tails.

Its an analysts worst nightmare that haha

Clegg

Clegg wrote: »

ESPN have updated their stats for yesterday's match and it really reads poorly for Munster's midfield.

They have Murray, Carbery, De Allende and Farrell down for 4,4,4,5 missed tackles respectively. That number is right for Carbery as he was bowled over by Henshaw a few times and Fardy ran over him at least once as well. But the numbers for the others are really poor.

prawnsambo wrote: »

He used to be a decent tackler. I'd imagine the injuries have hurt his confidence. He needs time and hopefully that will solve it.

Carbery was a very brave if not always effective tackler earlier in his career, but he was definitely targeted successfully yesterday which other teams will do if he and the coaches don't work on it both on an individual and team / structural basis.

One thing Leinster did quite effectively yesterday was to identify options to change the point of attack so Murray / Carbery were having to fill the line against forwards. Nothing new about that, but the frequency of it happening paints a picture around how the teams prepared.

On the flip side, Leinster backs repeatedly ran laterally behind their own forwards so that Munster 12 / 13 were having to drift and we alternated quite well between taking contact and going to the wings which DDA and Farrell didn't deal well with. Again, it just seems like another example where Leinster had done their homework a little better and executed an attacking shape that they knew would wrongfoot Munster's defence or individual players particular weaknesses.

I agree and disagree with some of the comments here around the relative quality of the 23s. I think on paper the packs were pretty even, don't think many Munster supporters would take Fardy / Toner over Klyne / Beirne. Similar POM / Stander over VDF / Conan.

Similarly in the backs, I would imagine many would take Murray, Carbery, Earls, DDA, Farrell over McGrath, Byrne, ROL, Kearney.

There really isn't that much off a difference in the squads to explain 33% Munster possession, 0 second half points and awful territory stats.

Leinster do have better squad depth - but that doesn't explain the disparity yesterday. I can only explain that away with the relative coaching tickets and that was apparent in two ways. Leinster were able to implement their game plan but much more importantly they completely disrupted and read Munster's attack. Munster lost ground in attack far too often - forcing them to cough up possession either by kicking away on Leinster's terms or being turned over.

Again I'll refer to O'Mahony's post match interview and the spectre of a player with a lot more to say. He pointed to some very specific examples but tentatively avoided the bigger picture that was pretty evident to most people in this thread and certainly the various pundits.

prawnsambo

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I don't necessarily disagree with your point as he is extremely easy to spot.

There was a few moments yesterday where Beirne was lurking for a next phase poach, Leinster carried narrow so he was out of range and then targeted him for the tackle on the next phase.

Much easier to do those things when the blue cap is easy to spot.

What i disagree with is the Connors anecdote im pretty sure was offered as a tongue in cheek comment that's since become lore

I don't think so. Iirc, James Lowe mentioned him at a press conference and hilariously couldn't remember his name and referred to him by his nickname 'Porridge'. That was just one of a few mentions he got for his work on the training pitch at the time.

Clegg

Re-watched the game. Ruddock and Conan were outstanding, but for me Andrew Porter was the best player on the pitch for the time he was on it. He carried well, but was also.used as a passing option on at least three different occasions. He sucked in Munster defenders before releasing the ball to a player who now had space to run into.

hahashake

Am I wrong to say this didn't feel like a final? Obviously some of these players have just come off a massive win for Ireland and have one eye on the European games (plus no crowds to top it off) but it felt slightly lacking in intensity.

realhorrorshow

Clegg wrote: »

Re-watched the game. Ruddock and Conan were outstanding, but for me Andrew Porter was the best player on the pitch for the time he was on it. He carried well, but was also.used as a passing option on at least three different occasions. He sucked in Munster defenders before releasing the ball to a player who now had space to run into.

Porter seems to fly under the radar a bit but he's had a consistently excellent season and is rapidly approaching world class status.

hahashake

hahashake wrote: »

Am I wrong to say this didn't feel like a final? Obviously some of these players have just come off a massive win for Ireland and have one eye on the European games (plus no crowds to top it off) but it felt slightly lacking in intensity.

Didn't look like that to me. The fact Munster were in with a punchers chance right until the end, despite getting absolutely dominated in general play, demonstrates that. They could have easily rolled over.

Burkie1203

Clayton Orange Maiden wrote: »

Didn't look like that to me. The fact Munster were in with a punchers chance right until the end, despite getting absolutely dominated in general play, demonstrates that. They could have easily rolled over.

Leinster's butchering of several opportunities kept munster in it. Nothing else

hahashake

Clayton Orange Maiden wrote: »

Didn't look like that to me. The fact Munster were in with a punchers chance right until the end, despite getting absolutely dominated in general play, demonstrates that. They could have easily rolled over.

Fair.

Keeping a clearly limping Byrne on until the pre-determined time for substitution seemed like it wasn't win at all costs for Leinster anyway.

irishbucsfan

I think a major turning point was that turnover by Dave Kearney in the Leinster 22. I think that might have been one of the last times Munster looked particularly dangerous, if that had ended up a try instead of nothing it may have been a very different game.

Burkie1203

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I Agree and disagree with some of the comments here about the relative quality of the 23s. I think on Paper the packs were pretty even, don't think many Munster supporters would take Fardy / Toner over Klyne / Beirne. Similar POM / Stander over VDF / Conan.

.

Leinster's forwards are far superior in one way.
They each offer more individually. Therefore they pose more questions of defences.

Beirne would be the only Munster forward to get near the Leinster 23 IMO.

thomond2006

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Leinster's forwards are far superior in one way.
They each offer more individually. Therefore they pose more questions of defences.

Beirne would be the only Munster forward to get near the Leinster 23 IMO.

Kilcoyne is better than Ed Byrne. Come on now.
Coombes would make the 23 also on the basis of yesterday. Some missed tackles but an excellent ball carrying performance.

I get that Munster's pack was comprehensively outplayed but let's not go crazy.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Kilcoyne is better than Ed Byrne. Come on now.
Coombes would make the 23 also on the basis of yesterday. Some missed tackles but an excellent ball carrying performance.

Well on the basis of yesterday Leinster didn't have a backrow on the bench due to all the rest of them being injured so by virtue of being able to walk he'd have made the 23 by default, but in general if Doris, Leavy, Connors were available? He'd get gametime over the course of a season. There's absolutely no way POM would get near the Leinster 23 and Stander would be a different player if he was at Leinster. Kilcoyne would make the 23 for sure.

Clegg

Coombes is a year older than Doris. He's young, but it's not like he's some 20 year old tyro whose come out from nowhere. He's still significantly behind Doris in terms of development and exposure to higher levels of competition.

He certainly has a big future. But at his current level he doesn't make Leinsters 23.

thomond2006

Clayton Orange Maiden wrote: »

Well on the basis of yesterday Leinster didn't have a backrow on the bench due to all the rest of them being injured so by virtue of being able to walk he'd have made the 23 by default, but in general if Doris, Leavy, Connors were available? He'd get gametime over the course of a season. There's absolutely no way POM would get near the Leinster 23 and Stander would be a different player if he was at Leinster. Kilcoyne would make the 23 for sure.

Poor POM. You flog the poor fella.

prawnsambo

Clayton Orange Maiden wrote: »

Well on the basis of yesterday Leinster didn't have a backrow on the bench due to all the rest of them being injured so by virtue of being able to walk he'd have made the 23 by default, but in general if Doris, Leavy, Connors were available? He'd get gametime over the course of a season. There's absolutely no way POM would get near the Leinster 23 and Stander would be a different player if he was at Leinster. Kilcoyne would make the 23 for sure.

I dunno about Stander playing any differently at Leinster. He seems to relish the contact and almost seek it out. And he can do it all day. Just loves to run at defenders, the more the merrier.

I suspect plenty of the Munster pack would be in the Leinster 23 if they were regularly playing as part of the Leinster pack with the Leinster coaching ticket.

For a lot of these guys it's not individual talent, it's more systemic issues undermining them.

If Munster branch are paying attention they should have seen a big enough red flag go up yesterday. There needs to be a reaction now over the next few games and if not I'd be making a change at the top.

The Inbetween is mine

I decided to rewatch the Ireland V England game afterwards...needed a pick me up

AbusesToilets

Deleted User wrote: »

I suspect plenty of the Munster pack would be in the Leinster 23 if they were regularly playing as part of the Leinster pack with the Leinster coaching ticket.

For a lot of these guys it's not individual talent, it's more systemic issues undermining them.

If Munster branch are paying attention they should have seen a big enough red flag go up yesterday. There needs to be a reaction now over the next few games and if not I'd be making a change at the top.

Do Munster have a skills coach? That's an area where the IRFU should mandate/ supply for all provinces. It was telling how much more fluid the Leinster pack were with the ball.

AbusesToilets

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Do Munster have a skills coach? That's an area where the IRFU should mandate/ supply for all provinces. It was telling how much more fluid the Leinster pack were with the ball.

Leinster do a lot of high 'ball in play' training sessions at a relatively high intensity and tempo and this is the main reason their execution, decision making and cohesiveness is at the level it is.

Their ability to move from relatively unstructured phase play to something off the training ground without an intervening set piece sets them apart from a lot of Northern hemisphere teams, but they also have the defensive structure, breakdown nous and kicking game of the best northern hemisphere teams.

When you add that to the coaches ability to analyse opposition to the degree they do, you have a team that is hard to beat even if it's not close to full strength. Throw in some top internationals and good luck, game over.

Whether Munster need a new skills coach or not I've no idea, but they absolutely need better fluency between forwards and backs and it's 100% evident from some of the tries they've conceded this season (even against poorer opposition) that they are far too focused on their own game.

It keeps coming back to coaching for me.

molloyjh

hahashake wrote: »

Am I wrong to say this didn't feel like a final? Obviously some of these players have just come off a massive win for Ireland and have one eye on the European games (plus no crowds to top it off) but it felt slightly lacking in intensity.

You definitely weren't the only one who felt like that! That said, had supporters been there that may have been very different.

irishbucsfan

There's definitely been a feeling of anti-climax with ProXX finals even when crowds are there. Previously it was often right up against a European final and that had a similar effect. No matter what happens it'll never be more important than a European final or a Six Nations game, so it'll always be overshadowed if scheduled up either side of one of those.

molloyjh

Haven't rewatched the game back and not sure if I'll get a chance to. But did have a quick scan through some of the stats. I didn't specifically notice during the game, but Munster seem to use Beirne and Kleyn to do a lot of their carrying. Coombes was excellent, but the other back rows for Munster simply didn't get into the game at all on attack.

Similarly, the back line was used far less than they should have been. Carbery barely touched the ball and the centres were similar. The replacements made a big difference there. JJ was used almost as much in his few mins as Carbery had been all game. Similarly Scannell compared to DDA. Not sure if that was planned or what, but Munster seemed happy to effectively run into us whenever they had the ball. From a Leinster perspective all I can say is please and thank you.

wittycynic

Clayton Orange Maiden wrote: »

Well on the basis of yesterday Leinster didn't have a backrow on the bench due to all the rest of them being injured so by virtue of being able to walk he'd have made the 23 by default, but in general if Doris, Leavy, Connors were available? He'd get gametime over the course of a season. There's absolutely no way POM would get near the Leinster 23 and Stander would be a different player if he was at Leinster. Kilcoyne would make the 23 for sure.

POM always makes the Ireland 23 when fit, but wouldn't get near the Leinster 23? Jaysus.

AbusesToilets

wittycynic wrote: »

POM always makes the Ireland 23 when fit, but wouldn't get near the Leinster 23? Jaysus.

Ruddock is a better 6, there's a rake of better 7s and 8s. Hardly a controversial opinion.

BoardsMember

wittycynic wrote: »

POM always makes the Ireland 23 when fit, but wouldn't get near the Leinster 23? Jaysus.

I think that's correct. He's definitely not getting in the 15 at 7. And I think he'd be behind Ruddock, maybe others at 6. Hard to see him ahead of Baird on the bench.

wittycynic

wittycynic wrote: »

POM always makes the Ireland 23 when fit, but wouldn't get near the Leinster 23? Jaysus.

Yeah. Absolutely. Did you see the game yesterday for example?

Clegg

I think Leinster fans perceptions are also coloured by the fact that POM, CJ et al rarely perform well in games against Leinster.

A lot of the time it's a case of Leinsters front 5 beating up Munster's and not allowing their backrow any sort of attacking platform. But it's never total dominance and there are always times when Munster's backrow gets a chance to attack. But even with those opportunities Munster show up poorly.

Just feels like Leo and Lancaster figured out PoM and Stander years ago and since then they've been stifled.

wittycynic

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Ruddock is a better 6, there's a rake of better 7s and 8s. Hardly a controversial opinion.

None of Kidney, Schmidt, Farrell, nor Gatland shared your view of Ruddock as being ahead of O'Mahony, but fair enough.

AbusesToilets

Clegg wrote: »

I think Leinster fans perceptions are also coloured by the fact that POM, CJ et al rarely perform well in games against Leinster.

A lot of the time it's a case of Leinsters front 5 beating up Munster's and not allowing their backrow any sort of attacking platform. But it's never total dominance and there are always times when Munster's backrow gets a chance to attack. But even with those opportunities Munster show up poorly.

Just feels like Leo and Lancaster figured out PoM and Stander years ago and since then they've been stifled.

Most good teams have figured out Stander. He rarely has the impact he probably ouught to have, given his propensity to seek contact.

AbusesToilets

wittycynic wrote: »

None of Kidney, Schmidt, Farrell, nor Gatland shared your view of Ruddock as being ahead of O'Mahony, but fair enough.

Good thing there's plenty of matches to watch them in to gauge for oneself then, including many head to head.

wittycynic

wittycynic wrote: »

None of Kidney, Schmidt, Farrell, nor Gatland shared your view of Ruddock as being ahead of O'Mahony, but fair enough.

The Lions tour was 4 years ago. What would Leinster do with him now?

wittycynic

Clayton Orange Maiden wrote: »

The Lions tour was 4 years ago. What would Leinster do with him now?

Just pointing out that every professional coach who has ever had to determine between them, including Farrell in the recent six nations, has believed O'Mahony to be the better choice. Surely that says something?

Ruddock is a fine player, but the only people who seem think he's better than O'Mahony on the whole are Leinster fans.

wittycynic

wittycynic wrote: »

Just pointing out that every professional coach who has ever had to determine between them, including Farrell in the recent six nations, has believed O'Mahony to be the better choice. Surely that says something?

Ruddock is a fine player, but the only people who seem think he's better than O'Mahony on the whole are Leinster fans.

Imagine it's a Euro final and Leinster have all of Doris, Conan, VdF, Leavy, Connors, Ruddock and POM fit and firing. Who do you reckon makes the 23?

yosser hughes

wittycynic wrote: »

POM always makes the Ireland 23 when fit, but wouldn't get near the Leinster 23? Jaysus.

He makes the Ireland 23 because he had a contract. Why the contract was renewed is a mystery to me and the majority of rugby fans.
I like POM and i admire a lot about him but he didn't deserve a new contract

sydthebeat

yosser hughes wrote: »

He makes the Ireland 23 because he has a contract.

Well that's a lie

BoardsMember

wittycynic wrote: »

None of Kidney, Schmidt, Farrell, nor Gatland shared your view of Ruddock as being ahead of O'Mahony, but fair enough.

This is true, and its a good point. I've never understood how Munster has effectively owne 2 of the backrow positions through a period where Leinster utterly dominated them head to head. The front 5 superiority can't be underestimated, so maybe that, plus superior coaching, first 15 and strength in depth has had an impact too.