Leinster Vs Munster Pro 14 final build up thread

FrannoFan

Clegg wrote: »

I think Leinster fans perceptions are also coloured by the fact that POM, CJ et al rarely perform well in games against Leinster.

A lot of the time it's a case of Leinsters front 5 beating up Munster's and not allowing their backrow any sort of attacking platform. But it's never total dominance and there are always times when Munster's backrow gets a chance to attack. But even with those opportunities Munster show up poorly.

Just feels like Leo and Lancaster figured out PoM and Stander years ago and since then they've been stifled.

Leinster figured out stander years ago. Nearly always pick toner against munster to deal with him.

wittycynic

BoardsMember wrote: »

This is true, and its a good point. I've never understood how Munster has effectively owne 2 of the backrow positions through a period where Leinster utterly dominated them head to head. The front 5 superiority can't be underestimated, so maybe that, plus superior coaching, first 15 and strength in depth has had an impact too.

Leinster have on the whole had a substantially better 23 and squad depth for over a decade now. There's a sizeable gulf in class between the front 5 as you say, notwithstanding the fact that I think Beirne and Kilcoyne would feature in a Leinster 23 if available. Tight head and Hooker are particular problem areas where Munster doesn't have a single player of that is even European cup standard, let alone international standard. There's no solid option for the club at loosehead beyond Kilcoyne, and things are fairly threadbare in second row. Beirne is excellent, and Kleyn is decent but ideally you would want another two strong options (of course munster should have had Snyman this year, but that's another story).

BoardsMember

FrannoFan wrote: »

Leinster figured out stander years ago. Nearly always pick toner against munster to deal with him.

To be fair, Toner has been picked fairly consistently over the last number of years for every big game, regardless of who they were playing against. He was a Leinster and Ireland starter, year in, year out. The idea that Toner is picked to counter CJ is difficult to comprehend, he'd have been picked anyway and you'd imagine that the backrow selection would in principal be more influenced by the opposition backrow, than the 2nd row selection.

VayNiice

wittycynic wrote: »

None of Kidney, Schmidt, Farrell, nor Gatland shared your view of Ruddock as being ahead of O'Mahony, but fair enough.

Well Ruddock was only 22 in Kidneys last year in charge of Ireland and Ferris was Kidneys first choice at 6 during that time.

Ruddock completely outplayed POM yesterday.

wittycynic

VayNiice wrote: »

Well Ruddock was only 22 in Kidneys last year in charge of Ireland and Ferris was Kidneys first choice at 6 during that time.

Ruddock completely outplayed POM yesterday.

O'Mahony is only 10 months older than Ruddock. Both were in Ireland's 2012 six nations squad, a tournament where O'Mahony got 4 caps and Ruddock got none. That was Kidney's second last six nations.

Ruddock played better than POM yesterday, but no one judges a player's ability off a single game. The point stands that no Irish or lions coach has ever appeared to think that Ruddock was or is the better of the two, and there's a reason for that. Yesterday on its own, won't put Ruddock ahead of POM in any coach's pecking order.

sebdavis

thomond2006 wrote: »

Kilcoyne is better than Ed Byrne. Come on now.
Coombes would make the 23 also on the basis of yesterday. Some missed tackles but an excellent ball carrying performance.

I get that Munster's pack was comprehensively outplayed but let's not go crazy.

The hype around Coombes is a bit of the top from my point of view. The Pro14 website done a comparison with Penny and to be honest Penny is ahead.

Would he be as hyped if he came from the Leinster academy?

stephen_n

sebdavis wrote: »

The hype around Coombes is a bit of the top from my point of view. The Pro14 website done a comparison with Penny and to be honest Penny is ahead.

Would he be as hyped if he came from the Leinster academy?

You can’t regally make that comparison until Penny plays in Europe and in games like last night. Coombes at this stage has played in far bigger games and looked comfortable. That’s not saying Penny won’t but you can’t compare stats from utterly dominant Leinster performances. Coombes looked good last night in a beaten pack.

VayNiice

wittycynic wrote: »

O'Mahony is only 10 months older than Ruddock. Both were in Ireland's 2012 six nations squad, a tournament where O'Mahony got 4 caps and Ruddock got none. That was Kidney's second last six nations.

Ruddock played better than POM yesterday, but no one judges a player's ability off a single game. The point stands that no Irish or lions coach has ever appeared to think that Ruddock was or is the better of the two, and there's a reason for that. Yesterday on its own, won't put Ruddock ahead of POM in any coach's pecking order.

Well I'd argue Ruddock has been better than POM for the past couple of years but that's just my opinion. POM must be producing some serious magic in training because he's been poor for much of the past 2 years

AbusesToilets

Ruddock also got cursed by the same gypsy that did in Fitzgerald and Ferris. I've lost count of the number of times he's managed to get injured right before the international window after being in great form. Practically a meme in its own right.

BoardsMember

Coombes is going to continue to get a lot more games than Penney, considering he'll be in the starting back row for big games. Penney has a fair bit of competition with Josh and Connors ahead at the moment.

theVersatile

sebdavis wrote: »

Would he be as hyped if he came from the Leinster academy?

Probably about three times the amount of hype beginning from the moment he played Junior Cup

almostover

BoardsMember wrote: »

Coombes is going to continue to get a lot more games than Penney, considering he'll be in the starting back row for big games. Penney has a fair bit of competition with Josh and Connors ahead at the moment.

Size matters in international rugby too.

Penny: 6'0" and 16st
Coombes: 6' 6" and 17st

Simplistic view point perhaps. Penney must get past Connors and JvdF at Leinster before he will be in the reckoning for Ireland. Those guys are the 1 and 2 choice at both club and international level. A move to another province could be his ticket to the green jersey.

Coombes is first choice at Munster albeit that we're still a bit off Leinster's standard. He's impressed in an away game to Clermont recovering from an early missed tackle to have a very strong carrying game. He's been in top form in the Pro14 also. He will replace Stander as our no.8 going forward. Has a great tight carrying game, good pair of hands and is a real jackal threat. Needs to improve his defence a little. For me its between him, Ruddock and POM for the vacancy at no.6 that Stander leaves in the Ireland back row.

Jump_In_Jack

The score was 16-6 right, still didn’t change, Leinster got one single try and scored one penalty more than Munster out of the same number of attempts at goal wasn’t it?
Sounds like a pretty close match to me, don’t know what all the BS is about everything being wrong with Munster, coaching, no players, etc
Could meet again in the Heineken Cup yet, or even the Rainbow Cup final maybe, either way will be playing in a few weeks time so happy to wait and see what happens then.

thomond2006

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

The score was 16-6 right, still didn’t change, Leinster got one single try and scored one penalty more than Munster out of the same number of attempts at goal wasn’t it?
Sounds like a pretty close match to me, don’t know what all the BS is about everything being wrong with Munster, coaching, no players, etc
Could meet again in the Heineken Cup yet, or even the Rainbow Cup final maybe, either way will be playing in a few weeks time so happy to wait and see what happens then.

Leinster butchered a few opportunities and Munster never looked close to scoring. 16-6 wasn't a reflection of the game.

Mimon

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

The score was 16-6 right, still didn’t change, Leinster got one single try and scored one penalty more than Munster out of the same number of attempts at goal wasn’t it?
Sounds like a pretty close match to me, don’t know what all the BS is about everything being wrong with Munster, coaching, no players, etc
Could meet again in the Heineken Cup yet, or even the Rainbow Cup final maybe, either way will be playing in a few weeks time so happy to wait and see what happens then.

Did you actually watch the game? Have you looked at any of the stats of the game?

BoardsMember

almostover wrote: »

Size matters in international rugby too.

Penny: 6'0" and 16st
Coombes: 6' 6" and 17st

Simplistic view point perhaps. Penney must get past Connors and JvdF at Leinster before he will be in the reckoning for Ireland. Those guys are the 1 and 2 choice at both club and international level. A move to another province could be his ticket to the green jersey.

Coombes is first choice at Munster albeit that we're still a bit off Leinster's standard. He's impressed in an away game to Clermont recovering from an early missed tackle to have a very strong carrying game. He's been in top form in the Pro14 also. He will replace Stander as our no.8 going forward. Has a great tight carrying game, good pair of hands and is a real jackal threat. Needs to improve his defence a little. For me its between him, Ruddock and POM for the vacancy at no.6 that Stander leaves in the Ireland back row.

Penney is a 7, out and out. I understood Coombes was more an 8 than a 6, ideally. He has a way to go to compete there against Conan and Doris.

Not sure Ruddock will become a challenger for the 6 jersey for Ireland, he hasn't been to date.

Beirne might have something to say about your list, and a number of others including Deegan, Baird, Leavy if he can stay fit, from Leinster, nd probably a few others from elsewhere.

irishbucsfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Sounds like a pretty close match to me

Yeah it does sound close if you just look at the score. But you should really watch it.

irishbucsfan

BoardsMember wrote: »

Penney is a 7, out and out.

The thing about Penney is that while he is definitely a 7, that performance at 8 shows he's probably more than capable of playing across the back row already, a really strong candidate for the 20 jersey in European games in the very near future imo

phily2002

almostover wrote: »

Size matters in international rugby too.

Penny: 6'0" and 16st
Coombes: 6' 6" and 17st

Simplistic view point perhaps. Penney must get past Connors and JvdF at Leinster before he will be in the reckoning for Ireland. Those guys are the 1 and 2 choice at both club and international level. A move to another province could be his ticket to the green jersey.

Coombes is first choice at Munster albeit that we're still a bit off Leinster's standard. He's impressed in an away game to Clermont recovering from an early missed tackle to have a very strong carrying game. He's been in top form in the Pro14 also. He will replace Stander as our no.8 going forward. Has a great tight carrying game, good pair of hands and is a real jackal threat. Needs to improve his defence a little. For me its between him, Ruddock and POM for the vacancy at no.6 that Stander leaves in the Ireland back row.

We are in a great position for back rows. At 7 VDF and Connors are in great form with Penny hopefully getting a look in the near future. We have lots of 6/8 options with Ruddock, Conan, Doris and Beirne with Coombes like Penny hopefully getting a look soon as well.
Strength in depth is great.

BoardsMember

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The thing about Penney is that while he is definitely a 7, that performance at 8 shows he's probably more than capable of playing across the back row already, a really strong candidate for the 20 jersey in European games in the very near future imo

He'd be a bit of a short arse for an 8, no? I suppose that could be mitigated by the other back row selected.

almostover

BoardsMember wrote: »

Penney is a 7, out and out. I understood Coombes was more an 8 than a 6, ideally. He has a way to go to compete there against Conan and Doris.

Not sure Ruddock will become a challenger for the 6 jersey for Ireland, he hasn't been to date.

Beirne might have something to say about your list, and a number of others including Deegan, Baird, Leavy if he can stay fit, from Leinster, nd probably a few others from elsewhere.

Beirne and Baird are second rows. Deegan is another who'll have to fight hard to be first choice at Leinster. Leinster have an embarrassment of riches in the back row. Someone has to lose out. These guys won't hang around forever if they think they'll have more of a chance playing for Ireland by getting more 1st team games.

sebdavis

BoardsMember wrote: »

He'd be a bit of a short arse for an 8, no? I suppose that could be mitigated by the other back row selected.

2cm smaller than Stander who done ok at 8 & 6

Personally I rate the player based on skill, not because one player is bigger or taller than the other.

AbusesToilets

almostover wrote: »

Beirne and Baird are second rows. Deegan is another who'll have to fight hard to be first choice at Leinster. Leinster have an embarrassment of riches in the back row. Someone has to lose out. These guys won't hang around forever if they think they'll have more of a chance playing for Ireland by getting more 1st team games.

Has moving helped other players though? I'd say Conway is maybe the only lad to leave Leinster and have any real success getting into the Irish set up.

BoardsMember

almostover wrote: »

Beirne and Baird are second rows. Deegan is another who'll have to fight hard to be first choice at Leinster. Leinster have an embarrassment of riches in the back row. Someone has to lose out. These guys won't hang around forever if they think they'll have more of a chance playing for Ireland by getting more 1st team games.

Beirne isn't getting on the Irish team any time soon in the row. And Baird is very much 2nd row or back row, definitely not only a 2nd row.

Leinster definitely have an embarrassment of riches with those already mentioned, and some more, including Murphy, who is also a talented and very abrasive player. Leinster having all those players isn't optimal for Ireland.

BoardsMember

sebdavis wrote: »

2cm smaller than Stander who done ok at 8 & 6

Personally I rate the player based on skill, not because one player is bigger or taller than the other.

Interesting. So height isn't a factor at all? Thats all i was suggesting.

sebdavis

BoardsMember wrote: »

Beirne isn't getting on the Irish team any time soon in the row. And Baird is very much 2nd row or back row, definitely not only a 2nd row.

Leinster definitely have an embarrassment of riches with those already mentioned, and some more, including Murphy, who is also a talented and very abrasive player. Leinster having all those players isn't optimal for Ireland.

If they are getting game time it won't make any difference, the issue is the league is not up to standard. Hopefully the introduction of the SA teams will increase the competitive games in the Pro14

Podge_irl

sebdavis wrote: »

2cm smaller than Stander who done ok at 8 & 6

Personally I rate the player based on skill, not because one player is bigger or taller than the other.

There are limits to this approach. He'd be a rubbish second row for example.

sebdavis

BoardsMember wrote: »

Interesting. So height isn't a factor at all? Thats all i was suggesting.

Sorry I was making the point to someone else who posted the height of Coombes v Penny.

BoardsMember

sebdavis wrote: »

If they are getting game time it won't make any difference, the issue is the league is not up to standard. Hopefully the introduction of the SA teams will increase the competitive games in the Pro14

Hard to see how they all get game time though. They have 3+ in each of the 3 backrow positions. Of course, injuries and rotation play a part. But hard to keep everyone happy with that many international standard back rows. Great problem to have, mind you.

sebdavis

Podge_irl wrote: »

There are limits to this approach. He'd be a rubbish second row for example.

100%
But playing Penny in a back row that included Beirne/Doris would mean jumping in line out would be less of a requirement
It's all about balance.

BoardsMember

sebdavis wrote: »

100%
But playing Penny in a back row that included Beirne/Doris would mean jumping in line out would be less of a requirement
It's all about balance.

Eh, which is exactly what I said....

prawnsambo

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Has moving helped other players though? I'd say Conway is maybe the only lad to leave Leinster and have any real success getting into the Irish set up.

Well Tadhg Beirne too.

AbusesToilets

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well Tadhg Beirne too.

Yea, he took a very round about route though, and it's only this season he's lived up to his Scarletts hype. He was stealing a jersey before that.

aloooof

Leinster showing pretty comprehensively why they were, in fact.... favourites.

Munster with little territory and little possession weren't able (allowed) get a foothold in the game, and even when they did they seemed to try to force things.

It meant that we couldn't even engineer field position to box kick on top of Larmour, for example. Any we did have seemed to be on Kearney's side of the pitch which he and Keenan mopped up. (Thought Larmour was generally fairly poor).

Thought the breakdown was an absolute mess, particularly in the first half. That pretty much nullified Munster's jackal threat which meant they couldn't slow down Leinster ball.

For me, the difference maker was the front-row. The scrums were pretty evenly matched for the most part (some didn't budge an inch) but in general play, the Leinster front row were (and have been for some time) vastly superior to Munster's.

Well done, Leinster. Again.

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

The hype around Coombes is a bit of the top from my point of view. The Pro14 website done a comparison with Penny and to be honest Penny is ahead.

Would he be as hyped if he came from the Leinster academy?

The notoriously under-appreciated... Leinster academy?? Hmmm...

The Inbetween is mine

Is anyone going to start a match thread?

aloooof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Has moving helped other players though? I'd say Conway is maybe the only lad to leave Leinster and have any real success getting into the Irish set up.

There's the flip side of this too, tho. For example, Jordi moving helped Doris (and therefore Leinster).

AbusesToilets

aloooof wrote: »

There's the flip side of this too, tho. For example, Jordi moving helped Doris (and therefore Leinster).

That's a fair point. Very altruistic of Nordi :P

Players leaving for game time would a sub par subset so I would expect the majority of them would not push on to the next level

sebdavis

aloooof wrote: »

The notoriously under-appreciated... Leinster academy?? Hmmm...

Yes that was the point I made :rolleyes:

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

Yes that was the point I made :rolleyes:

So what makes you think he wouldn't be as hyped if he came from the Leinster academy?

(Fwiw, I'd argue the premise. I don't think it's fair to say he's been hyped; he's attracted praise for some very good performances).

sebdavis

aloooof wrote: »

So what makes you think he wouldn't be as hyped if he came from the Leinster academy?

(Fwiw, I'd argue the premise. I don't think it's fair to say he's been hyped; he's attracted praise for some very good performances).

Don't worry mate, no matter how I respond you will deliberately misunderstand. Leave you to it

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

Don't worry mate, no matter how I respond you will deliberately misunderstand. Leave you to it

Fair enough... :rolleyes: