are auction contracts categorically infallible

Mad_maxx

my sister who lives in dublin and works in the law but not in conveyancy was telling me over the weekend about a situation quite recently where a couple bought a house at an online auction , they appeared to get a discount , the title was pretty ok and they know the estate and area well , they have friends living nearby

the problem was that the house was advertised as a four bed house but one of the bedrooms was a converted attic . while in practice this extra bedroom might well have real value , not only can you not list the house as any bigger than a three bed should you decided to sell in years to come , estate agents themselves are not permitted to advertise three beds with converted attics as four beds

the question is whether the power of the auction contract allows such a detail to be omitted ? , thus inflating the status of the house

according to my sister , the sale has not closed yet and has dragged on since before christmas , the winning bidder demanding a refund

what i took from this was that during covid lockdown , the onus should be higher on auction houses to provide absolutely accurate details as viewings are not permitted

Claw Hammer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

my sister who lives in dublin and works in the law but not in conveyancy was telling me over the weekend about a situation quite recently where a couple bought a house at an online auction , they appeared to get a discount , the title was pretty ok and they know the estate and area well , they have friends living nearby

the problem was that the house was advertised as a four bed house but one of the bedrooms was a converted attic . while in practice this extra bedroom might well have real value , not only can you not list the house as any bigger than a three bed should you decided to sell in years to come , estate agents themselves are not permitted to advertise three beds with converted attics as four beds

the question is whether the power of the auction contract allows such a detail to be omitted ? , thus inflating the status of the house

according to my sister , the sale has not closed yet and has dragged on since before christmas , the winning bidder demanding a refund

what i took from this was that during covid lockdown , the onus should be higher on auction houses to provide absolutely accurate details as viewings are not permitted

The auction houses always contract out of representations as to measurement etc. It is up to people to make sure they know what they are buying. It is not like buying goods from a shop where there is consumer protection and often a full refund no quibble policy.
There is no consumer protection when buying a second hand house. It is up to the intending buyer to inspect and make sure they know what they are buying.
A google search would most likely reveal that other houses on the same road are 3 bed and the one your sister spoke of must have been constructed as a 3 bed.
Auctions are not for newbies looking for a bargain.

Marcusm

The question, I think, is whether it amounts to fraudulent misrepresentation including whether all the relevant factors are present. In many online property auctions there is a statement that the property has not been inspected to verify if the details are correct and encouraging the prospective buyers to inspect the property or have it inspected. This may vitiate any assertion of fraudulent misrepresentation but IANAL and the one who is being used for the purchase should be consulted.

Mad_maxx

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The auction houses always contract out of representations as to measurement etc. It is up to people to make sure they know what they are buying. It is not like buying goods from a shop where there is consumer protection and often a full refund no quibble policy.
There is no consumer protection when buying a second hand house. It is up to the intending buyer to inspect and make sure they know what they are buying.
A google search would most likely reveal that other houses on the same road are 3 bed and the one your sister spoke of must have been constructed as a 3 bed.
Auctions are not for newbies looking for a bargain.

how may i ask do you inspect a property in the current climate ?

you are aware that auctions are still going ahead despite no viewings ?

the point of my OP was whether the power of the auction contract trumps all this new reality ?


https://www.auctioneera.ie/selling-house-with-converted-attic#:~:text=Many%20people%20have%20converted%20their,structural%20changes%20were%20being%20made.&text=The%20reason%20for%20this%20is,as%20a%204%20bedroom%20property.

Claw Hammer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

how may i ask do you inspect a property in the current climate ?

you are aware that auctions are still going ahead despite no viewings ?

the point of my OP was whether the power of the auction contract trumps all this new reality ?


https://www.auctioneera.ie/selling-house-with-converted-attic#:~:text=Many%20people%20have%20converted%20their,structural%20changes%20were%20being%20made.&text=The%20reason%20for%20this%20is,as%20a%204%20bedroom%20property.

The contract is everything. All of the advertising is puff. Buyer beware. If you can't investigate, don't bid!
I don't see the relevance of your link.

Mad_maxx

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The contract is everything. All of the advertising is puff. Buyer beware. If you can't investigate, don't bid!
I don't see the relevance of your link.

" advertising is puff"

so if a seven bed mansion on three acres turns out to be a modest four bed on half an acre

" the contract is everything "

?

Caranica

A converted attic can be designated a bedroom if certain standards are met, ceiling height, fire door, permanent stairs etc. It's unclear if this is the case here or not

Mad_maxx

Caranica wrote: »

A converted attic can be designated a bedroom if certain standards are met, ceiling height, fire door, permanent stairs etc. It's unclear if this is the case here or not

im aware of that but most conversions would not meet the correct regs and therefore it would be incorrect to classify converted attic as an official bedroom

the crux of my OP was whether the power of the auction contract over rides everything including incorrect advertising , Claw Hammer believes it does and thats fair enough , he might be 100% correct

in the current climate with no viewings , i think this issue demands much greater focus

a house might tick every other box but if you buy a three bed , thinking you bought a four , its a nasty sting

Dav010

In the scenario you describe, a four bedroom is being auctioned, it is up to your surveyor/solicitor to check if it complies with regulations. If the pack states it does have a certificate of compliance and then you find in fact it doesn’t, your solicitor can take that up with the auction house.

Mad_maxx

Dav010 wrote: »

In the scenario you describe, a four bedroom is being auctioned, it is up to your surveyor/solicitor to check if it complies with regulations. If the pack states it does have a certificate of compliance and then you find in fact it doesn’t, your solicitor can take that up with the auction house.

cert of compliance to what extent ?

supporting an attic conversion with proper planning sought , thus rendering the property a legitimate four bed as advertised ?

Lenar3556

Dav010 wrote: »

In the scenario you describe, a four bedroom is being auctioned, it is up to your surveyor/solicitor to check if it complies with regulations. If the pack states it does have a certificate of compliance and then you find in fact it doesn’t, your solicitor can take that up with the auction house.

The nature of any of these auction / receivership sales is that they are sold very much “as is” by parties who are often a mortgagee in possession and have little or no knowledge of the particulars of the property.

Any available title/planning documents/certificates are made available in advance. Any certificate of compliance likely relates to the original construction. The attic conversion was probably done afterwards. But again these are matters entirely for the purchaser.

Some property at auction would have no such certificates, may not have correct planning, could have a sitting tenant on terms unknown. Could be falling down quite frankly. All warranties are excluded in the special conditions of sale and it’s up to any buyer to establish all relevant facts.

The only impact I would see with restrictions as to viewings is that the sale price to be achieved should be lower commensurate with the great risk of unknowns. Any sales agent / marketing fluff is specifically excluded in the contract of sale which is available for all to see in advance of the auction.

Mad_maxx

Lenar3556 wrote: »

The nature of any of these auction / receivership sales is that they are sold very much “as is” by parties who are often a mortgagee in possession and have little or no knowledge of the particulars of the property.

Any available title/planning documents/certificates are made available in advance. Any certificate of compliance likely relates to the original construction. The attic conversion was probably done afterwards. But again these are matters entirely for the purchaser.

Some property at auction would have no such certificates, may not have correct planning, could have a sitting tenant on terms unknown. Could be falling down quite frankly. All warranties are excluded in the special conditions of sale and it’s up to any buyer to establish all relevant facts.

The only impact I would see with restrictions as to viewings is that the sale price to be achieved should be lower commensurate with the great risk of unknowns. Any sales agent / marketing fluff is specifically excluded in the contract of sale which is available for all to see in advance of the auction.

the " little or no knowledge " line might be credible if they listed the property with a less flattering detail

funny and perhaps convenient how they listed as a four bed by mistake instead of say a two bed , if they know so little about what they are selling , how come they always seek to maximise its sale points ?

this is outright cowboy behaviour and something should be done about it , more warranties see available at the ballinasloe annual horse fair

Dav010

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the " little or no knowledge " line might be credible if they listed the property with a less flattering detail

funny and perhaps convenient how they listed as a four bed by mistake instead of say a two bed , if they know so little about what they are selling , how come they always seek to maximise its sale points ?

this is outright cowboy behaviour and something should be done about it , more warranties see available at the ballinasloe annual horse fair

That is why you are strongly advised to retain a solicitor to provide a SPAR and a surveyor to check the property before you bid.

Claw Hammer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

" advertising is puff"

so if a seven bed mansion on three acres turns out to be a modest four bed on half an acre

" the contract is everything "

?

You would want to be a right eejit buying a four bed on half an acre thinking it is a 7 bed mansion on three acres.

Mad_maxx

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You would want to be a right eejit buying a four bed on half an acre thinking it is a 7 bed mansion on three acres.

you have all the answers , dont you ?

not everyone believes sharp practice should be merely excused behind the power of the auction contract.

fair enough if the property is not compliant in some technical way , original owner is a belligerent individual , cash buyers only etc , basic details like number of bedrooms however needs to be accurate from an advertisement POV in my opinion , especially during lockdown you believe its ok , fine

ohnonotgmail

Mad_maxx wrote: »

you have all the answers , dont you ?

not everyone believes sharp practice should be merely excused behind the power of the auction contract.

fair enough if the property is not compliant in some technical way , original owner is a belligerent individual , cash buyers only etc , basic details like number of bedrooms however needs to be accurate from an advertisement POV in my opinion , especially during lockdown you believe its ok , fine

If they walk around the house and see four bedrooms they are going to put it down as four bedrooms. You should really have a solicitor go through the legal pack before bidding.

Mad_maxx

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If they walk around the house and see four bedrooms they are going to put it down as four bedrooms. You should really have a solicitor go through the legal pack before bidding.

i didnt buy the house , my sister who is a solicitor told me about it , but i have dealt with the auction house in question several years ago so im familiar with them and the story interests me

estate agents are not supposed to include a converted attic bedroom in the description of the house , most dont do it

ohnonotgmail

Mad_maxx wrote: »

i didnt buy the house , my sister who is a solicitor told me about it , but i have dealt with the auction house in question several years ago so im familiar with them and the story interests me

estate agents are not supposed to include a converted attic bedroom in the description of the house , most dont do it

Its an auction not sale by private treaty.

Mad_maxx

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Its an auction not sale by private treaty.

so ?

Dav010

Mad_maxx wrote: »

so ?

A lot of properties sold at auction are being sold by Receivers who are not bound by the same legal requirements that vendors are in Private Treaty sales in relation to planning permission and building regulations.

That is why the onus is on the buyer at auction to do all the necessary checks before bidding.

Mad_maxx

Dav010 wrote: »

A lot of properties sold at auction are being sold by Receivers who are not bound by the same legal requirements that vendors are in Private Treaty sales in relation to planning permission and building regulations.

That is why the onus is on the buyer at auction to do all the necessary checks before bidding.

i understand and realise that receivers often use auctions to offload properties with various irregularities and compliance issues but does that extend to incorrectly identifying the number of bedrooms in a house ?

Darc19

What also has to be considered is when the conversion took place and did it meet the parameters of a bedroom back then.

Regulations have changed over the years and there are now strick rules on safety aspects.

I sold a property in 2017 that had an upstairs room where the velux window was about 5cm too high from the floor.

The solution was to put a 5cm wood block beneath it and it conformed.

Here are two examples. Both built identically, but one is 4 bed including attic and one is a 3 bed + attic.

Same agent in both cases.


https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/82-sunnyhill-castlemartin-lodge-kilcullen-kildare/4485330

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/74-sunnyhill-castlemartin-kilcullen-kildare/4341536

Dav010

Mad_maxx wrote: »

i understand and realise that receivers often use auctions to offload properties with various irregularities but does that extend to incorrectly identifying the number of bedrooms in a house ?

In the scenario you described in your op, there is no such discrepancy, the house has four bedrooms. Whether that complies with planning/building regs is up to your solicitor/surveyor to advise. If the house is being sold by a Receiver, they don’t have to warranty the compliance.

Mad_maxx

Darc19 wrote: »

What also has to be considered is when the conversion took place and did it meet the parameters of a bedroom back then.

Regulations have changed over the years and there are now strick rules on safety aspects.

I sold a property in 2017 that had an upstairs room where the velux window was about 5cm too high from the floor.

The solution was to put a 5cm wood block beneath it and it conformed.

for marketing purposes , the attic conversion to bedroom must have been preceded by a planning application , you can covert an attic without planning but you cant then market it as an extra bedroom

Mad_maxx

Dav010 wrote: »

In the scenario you described in your op, there is no such discrepancy, the house has four bedrooms. Whether that complies with planning/building regs is up to your solicitor/surveyor to advise. If the house is being sold by a Receiver, they don’t have to warranty the compliance.

i spoke to an EA today ( who sold my mothers house six months ago and happened to call me about a related matter ) , we got talking about this and that and i asked him about this issue

he was adamant that unless planning was sought to convert an attic to a bedroom , an attic bedroom cannot be listed as such for the purpose of marketing

hence a three bed house can be listed as a three bed with attic conversion but not as a straight four bedroom as is what happened with this sale ?

Darc19

Mad_maxx wrote: »

for marketing purposes , the attic conversion to bedroom must have been preceded by a planning application , you can covert an attic without planning but you cant then market it as an extra bedroom

I don't think that is correct. It is if you make a change to the shape/style of the roof, planning is required.

You can add a rear velux window once it uses the slope of the roof. You can add an ensuite too. And once it meets the height, ventilation and safety requirements, it can be used as a bedroom.

However many houses won't have the height in the attic and they are then described as attic rooms.

This was in Irish times
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/do-i-need-planning-permission-to-convert-our-attic-1.3660304

Mad_maxx

Darc19 wrote: »

I don't think that is correct. It is if you make a change to the shape/style of the roof, planning is required.

You can add a rear velux window once it uses the slope of the roof. You can add an ensuite too. And once it meets the height, ventilation and safety requirements, it can be used as a bedroom.

However many houses won't have the height in the attic and they are then described as attic rooms.

This was in Irish times
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/do-i-need-planning-permission-to-convert-our-attic-1.3660304

I didn't say it can't be used as a bedroom, I'm saying it can't be listed as a bedroom for marketing purposes if planning for said conversion did not take place

If the above takes place without planning, you market as three bed house ( plus converted attic bedroom)

If planning did preceed attic conversion, you list as four bedroom house for sale ,important distinction

My EA contact said the same to me today

20/20

Mad_maxx wrote: »

i spoke to an EA today and i asked him about this issue
he was adamant that unless planning was sought to convert an attic to a bedroom , an attic bedroom cannot be listed as such for the purpose of marketing

Did you bid on this house ?
Do you know or have you ever even meet the successful bidders ?
Why do you care what somebody else bought maybe they will use the attic for a working from home office.
The only person who can explain things to you is the EA . You had dealings with that EA before, so call them and ask about the situation with attic or four bedrooms.

Mad_maxx

20/20 wrote: »

Did you bid on this house ?
Do you know or have you ever even meet the successful bidders ?
Why do you care what somebody else bought maybe they will use the attic for a working from home office.
The only person who can explain things to you is the EA . You had dealings with that EA before, so call them and ask about the situation with attic or four bedrooms.

The situation could apply to many properties for sale so could be repeated, I have no specific interest in any one house

Sharp practice interests me

Ubbquittious

They'll be talking about this in years to come


"Dya remember that covid virus?"

"I do indeed Paddy. Property prices were mad then. People dieing by the hundreds, everything in lockdown, and still they were going through the roof"

"Jaysus ya know what I heard of happening those times, fellas were buying houses they'd only seen on the screen of a computing machine"

"And some were only a few miles up the road"

"But they werent allowed to go and look at them"

"And the bloody eejits still bought them"

"Shur they were desperate to move out from mammy and daddy so they could finally have a proper shag with only the neighbours listening"

"They're paying the price for it now though"


"Just as well or we'd have to bail out the banks again"

Lenar3556

Mad_maxx wrote: »

i spoke to an EA today ( who sold my mothers house six months ago and happened to call me about a related matter ) , we got talking about this and that and i asked him about this issue

he was adamant that unless planning was sought to convert an attic to a bedroom , an attic bedroom cannot be listed as such for the purpose of marketing

hence a three bed house can be listed as a three bed with attic conversion but not as a straight four bedroom as is what happened with this sale ?

I would be surprised if an estate agent could be expected to establish valid planning permission for elements of a house before advertising it.