Ireland in violation of article 16

BanditLuke

Ridiculous that social housing tenants have to put up with this level of disregard by the local authorities. Many like myself pay a large proportion of our wages towards our houses or apartments and shouldn't have to do without this most basic of human rights.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0324/1205725-housing-standards/

I am positive Boardies will agree with the sentiment and echo the need for change and a massive upgrade to the conditions for all social housing tenants.

athlone573

The article seems to refer mainly to Traveller accommodation i.e. Halting Sites where there are particular difficulties possibly related to the itinerant lifestyle and settled community opposition.

In the past there have also been issues with housing projects most notably in the Ballymun area of Dublin but also more widely across the city which have been and are being addressed by major renovation and rebuilding programmes with local community engagement.

Kivaro

RTE were on about it this morning and of course focused on Traveller halting sites. How are we (Irish tax payers) responsible for the deliberate destruction of the facilities that are constantly provided to Travellers? Why are we responsible if the halting sites that we give to them for free are not looked after by the residents?

Wanderer78

I was delighted to see a local traveller driving a brand new merc, we ve done well with looking after them, that some have been able to pull themselves out of their situations, and become successful in life, we should be very proud of ourselves, and of such successes!

Mr. Incognito

I seem to recall them refusing new houses because they didn't come with stables.

Society is built on people contributing to the common good. In return you should be entitled to basic human rights.

A culture that removes children from education stymes their chance to get a career and lift them out of poverty.

Without education and opportunity they are forced turn to criminality and isolation. Suicide rates are much higher.

Without meaningful employment they contribute little to society and compound that isolation by marrying internally leading to genetic issues and their culture is family first. This omerta again facilitates criminality.

It's very very difficult for stretched local authorities to allocate funding to people who don't contribute to the tax take and have developed a culture of living off the state and expecting them to pander to them.

It should be a condition of all state benefits that your children are in school and vaccinated.

Its explains why this breach has been ongoing.

athlone573

Would it not be easier to post all Traveller bashing posts in a sticky as the theme recurs so often

blanch152

BanditLuke wrote: »

Ridiculous that social housing tenants have to put up with this level of disregard by the local authorities. Many like myself pay a large proportion of our wages towards our houses or apartments and shouldn't have to do without this most basic of human rights.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0324/1205725-housing-standards/

I am positive Boardies will agree with the sentiment and echo the need for change and a massive upgrade to the conditions for all social housing tenants.

How does Ireland compare to other countries? Here is the factsheet on Ireland:

https://rm.coe.int/CoERMPublicCommonSearchServices/DisplayDCTMContent?documentId=09000016806449ac

Under Article 16 it says:

"It has not been established that there is a sufficient supply of adequate housing for vulnerable families;
The protection of traveller families with respect to housing, including in terms of eviction conditions, is inadequate"

https://rm.coe.int/CoERMPublicCommonSearchServices/DisplayDCTMContent?documentId=0900001680644933

Denmark, a country we are often compared to, hasn't provided any information on compliance with Article 16.

You wouldn't want to live in France

https://rm.coe.int/CoERMPublicCommonSearchServices/DisplayDCTMContent?documentId=0900001680492889&format=pdf

"The shortage of social housing at an affordable price for the poorest people and low-income groups;
- The disfunctioning of the social housing allocation system and the related remedies;
- The deficient implementation of legislation on stopping places for Travellers and the lack of effective
access to housing assistance for Travellers and Roma wishing to live in mobile homes."

"The measures to reduce the number of homeless persons are insufficient;
- The implementation of the legislation on the prevention of evictions is unsatisfactory and no
arrangements have been made to propose rehousing solutions to evicted families;
- The rights of Roma and Travellers are not respected during the implementation of eviction procedures."

"Considerable substandard housing and lack of suitable amenities for a large number of dwellings;
- The failure to create a sufficient number of stopping places for Travellers and the poor living conditions
and operational failures on such sites;
- Lack of access to housing for settled Travellers;
- Insufficient progress in the eradication of substandard housing conditions for a large number of Roma."

Just a sample of the criticisms of France. Next, how do we compare to our nearest neighbours?

https://www.coe.int/en/web/european-social-charter/united-kingdom

Like Denmark, they haven't even put in information to allow them to be assessed!!

So, what my five minutes of quick research shows is that we continue to have lazy journalism in our media. Yes, Ireland has received criticism, but it is mild compared to other countries, and some other countries haven't even been bothered to report on their situation, meaning they don't care about the CoE or they don't want to face criticism.

Sometimes, as a country, we beat ourselves up unnecessarily and unfairly. This is another example.

Gunmonkey

Kivaro wrote: »

RTE were on about it this morning and of course focused on Traveller halting sites. How are we (Irish tax payers) responsible for the deliberate destruction of the facilities that are constantly provided to Travellers? Why are we responsible if the halting sites that we give to them for free are not looked after by the residents?

You see your problem is your looking at this through Logic-o-Vision goggles: if the State provides a domicile to someone, the onus is on that person/persons to keep the domicile in a good condition (to an extent).

The problem is, as this article is leaning towards, some are claiming that the State provided the house so the State must ensure its up to scratch at all times, no excuses. So no personal responsibility to those that trash or destroy their social houses, the State will just be along to clean up your mess.

Jim2007

BanditLuke wrote: »

Ridiculous that social housing tenants have to put up with this level of disregard by the local authorities. Many like myself pay a large proportion of our wages towards our houses or apartments and shouldn't have to do without this most basic of human rights.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0324/1205725-housing-standards/

I am positive Boardies will agree with the sentiment and echo the need for change and a massive upgrade to the conditions for all social housing tenants.

I would not agree with you at all. The basic problem is our definition of housing - that everyone should have a house, where as in most of Europe it means having an adequate roof over your head. And since A16 is relative, we’ll always be in breach of it.

Our housing policy requires one to either take on huge amounts of debt or rely on social assistance to get a home. We have been trying it for decades and just like other former British colonies where this idea is burned into the brain and it has not worked and it won’t because it’s a dumb idea.

We’re not going to make any serious headway in solving the housing crisis until we acknowledge that the current policy has never worked and start considering alternatives.

BanditLuke

Gunmonkey wrote: »

You see your problem is your looking at this through Logic-o-Vision goggles: if the State provides a domicile to someone, the onus is on that person/persons to keep the domicile in a good condition (to an extent).

The problem is, as this article is leaning towards, some are claiming that the State provided the house so the State must ensure its up to scratch at all times, no excuses. So no personal responsibility to those that trash or destroy their social houses, the State will just be along to clean up your mess.

That's a perfectly valid opinion, thankfully the EU see's it differently and things will have to change.

Nermal

'Rights' that by their nature require State expenditure to fulfill them are falsehoods.

blanch152

BanditLuke wrote: »

That's a perfectly valid opinion, thankfully the EU see's it differently and things will have to change.

Where do you get the idea that the EU sees it differently?

Gunmonkey

BanditLuke wrote: »

That's a perfectly valid opinion, thankfully the EU see's it differently and things will have to change.

How so? To what extent does the State have to provide a clean environment? If I got a social house, could I reef jars of jam off the kitchen floor and then call up the EU, claiming the house is unsuitable as theres jam and glass shards all over the floor and get them to force the Irish State to clean it up?

You may call that a ludicrous situation, but I want to know where the demarcation line is between responsibility of the person living in the home and the responsibility of the State.

Put it another way, if you moved into a new rented house that was clean when you moved in, and then 6 months when the landlord/lady does a spot check the house is filthy with several broken windows, appliances gone and they told you to get out, whose side would a court take?

The council of Europe isn’t an EU body.

biko

It's been crap for a while too
https://www.echo.ie/lucan/article/council-says-it-will-sort-out-legacy-issues-in-balgaddy-housing-estate

Between 2004 and 2007, 448 homes were built in Balgaddy. Many residents in the scheme complained of mould and dampness in their homes.

In 2015, the residents of the scheme were one of 20 groups that took a collective complaint to the Council of Europe arguing that the social housing stock was below living standard.

In October 2017, the European Committee for Social Rights in Strasbourg upheld the complaint and found Ireland to be violating Article 16 of the European Social Charter concerning the right of the family to social, legal and economic protection

blanch152

biko wrote: »

It's been crap for a while too
https://www.echo.ie/lucan/article/council-says-it-will-sort-out-legacy-issues-in-balgaddy-housing-estate

Between 2004 and 2007, 448 homes were built in Balgaddy. Many residents in the scheme complained of mould and dampness in their homes.

In 2015, the residents of the scheme were one of 20 groups that took a collective complaint to the Council of Europe arguing that the social housing stock was below living standard.

In October 2017, the European Committee for Social Rights in Strasbourg upheld the complaint and found Ireland to be violating Article 16 of the European Social Charter concerning the right of the family to social, legal and economic protection

So that is where this issue originates.

Stovepipe

Sue the builder. Oh, wait....the council built them. Sue the council. Send all the medical bills as a result of mould in the council-built house to the head of the Council. Keep at them until they fix it.

votecounts

Some of these apartments were on the news, shocking dampness which can't be good for your health

Odhinn

athlone573 wrote: »

Would it not be easier to post all Traveller bashing posts in a sticky as the theme recurs so often

...just call it "The Halting Site".

aziz

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I was delighted to see a local traveller driving a brand new merc, we ve done well with looking after them, that some have been able to pull themselves out of their situations, and become successful in life, we should be very proud of ourselves, and of such successes!

Would this merc happen to be white

Real Donald Trump

BanditLuke wrote: »

Ridiculous that social housing tenants have to put up with this level of disregard by the local authorities. Many like myself pay a large proportion of our wages towards our houses or apartments and shouldn't have to do without this most basic of human rights.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0324/1205725-housing-standards/

I am positive Boardies will agree with the sentiment and echo the need for change and a massive upgrade to the conditions for all social housing tenants.

If people are given a free home and don't look after it why should everyone feel sorry for them?

BanditLuke

Real Donald Trump wrote: »

If people are given a free home and don't look after it why should everyone feel sorry for them?

There are no free homes in Ireland. I pay a percentage of my earnings towards the house.

BanditLuke

votecounts wrote: »

Some of these apartments were on the news, shocking dampness which can't be good for your health

Unbelievable really. Hard to believe in this day and age.