F1 2021 :Round 1 Bahrain

Faugheen

weisses wrote: »

Drivers were told they had to obey the sporting regulations, which include keeping all four wheels on the track.

I cannot make it any simpler for you

And yet everybody bar Red Bull were doing it.

Funny that

Gaoth Laidir

Fuagheen, you really are blinkered when it comes to Hamilton and are changing your story to beat the band.

Again, nobody (not even Red Bull or Max himself) is claiming that Max should have been let off with that overtake, which I would argue was not a deliberate exit but one done due to understeer. He gave the position straight back.

If "every other team" was ignoring track limits there (outside of overtaking) then they should have been pulled up on it. It is nonsense to say that they can't possibly police every lap when you're able to state that every other team was at it. How is it that they saw enough to issue him a warning, then, and why didn't they issue the same warning to everyone else too, if they were all equally guilty? At least you admit now (albeit in a roundabout way) that Lewis was breaking the rule. Given that, you must also now admit that this gave him an overall time advantage compared to Max, whom you yourself admit didn't commit the same offence throughout the race.

AMKC

Good race. Disapointed Max and Red Bull did not win but at least they put Mercedes under pressure and did not make it easy for them.
A pity Alonso did not get to finish I thought he was doing well. Vettel unlucky but he looks do be doing better in that car then the Ferrari.
Still strange seeing Carlos Seinz in a Ferrari but getting used to it. Charles Leclerc done good. Lando Norris done good. Sergio Perez done very good to from pit lane to 5th. I thought the penalty on Vettel was harsh. Not Vettels fault it was Ocans fault.
Mazipan not so good. I can see Haas either bringing back Kevin Magnussen or getting someone else in the replace Marzipan maybe at the Summer break.

JoeExotic81

Max! Patience! argh! I thought he had picked up a puncture, at least it wasn't that. If he'd waited until the straight on the next lap or two he'd have coasted past.

thefa

AMKC wrote: »

Mazipan not so good. I can see Haas either bringing back Kevin Magnussen or getting someone else in the replace Marzipan maybe at the Summer break.

Think their financial situation doesn’t make that possible. Not going to attract any new sponsors with car performance either. This year’s a bit of a write off for them in the hopes they can the boys some experience and are more competitive in the new regs.

JoeExotic81

Vettel the "delusional ex champion" haha, gowan DC. Yet another shocker from Seb.

AMKC

thefa wrote: »

Think their financial situation doesn’t make that possible. Not going to attract any new sponsors with car performance either. This year’s a bit of a write off for them in the hopes they can the boys some experience and are more competitive in the new regs.

Going to be a long year for Haas. I would say William's will be glad they will not be last this year and who knows they might even score a point or two.

JoeExotic81 wrote: »

Vettel the "delusional ex champion" haha, gowan DC. Yet another shocker from Seb.

I thought that was Harsh of DC. He was not exactly a great F1 driver himself and he caused the biggest ever pile up in F1 in Belgium in 98.

JoeExotic81

I dunno, it's not the first time with vettel doing something ridiculous and then claiming something else happened in the past year. DC is there to say it how he sees it, and add a bit of spice and humour. Loved it.

Itssoeasy

AMKC wrote: »

Going to be a long year for Haas. I would say William's will be glad they will not be last this year and who knows they might even score a point or two.



I thought that was Harsh of DC. He was not exactly a great F1 driver himself and he caused the biggest ever pile up in F1 in Belgium in 98.

He wasn’t an also ran either let’s be honest. I mean vettel saying Ocon moved was a bit bizarre because given it was a right hander the racing line was to the left in order to actually make the corner so I’m not sure why vettel Ocon was where he was. I like Vettel but what he said was him trying to cover his ass after making a bad mistake.

BikeRacer

quokula wrote: »

Can you point to the bit in the regulations that says gaining an advantage is ok but overtaking isn’t?

It’ll take you a while to find it since it doesn’t exist.

Easy.

https://twitter.com/NorthHertsSam/status/1376267953977626628?s=19

This is it

@AKMC

Vettel not at fault!? He was 100% at fault. Making out the Ocon moved when it's clear Vettel moved behind Ocon back onto the racing line and either didn't brake in time or lost downforce resulting in the collision. I want Vettel to do well but that was a very poor start to his season.

This is it

Itssoeasy wrote: »

He wasn’t an also ran either let’s be honest. I mean vettel saying Ocon moved was a bit bizarre because given it was a right hander the racing line was to the left in order to actually make the corner so I’m not sure why vettel Ocon was where he was. I like Vettel but what he said was him trying to cover his ass after making a bad mistake.

And all it does is makes it worse. He surely realises all the cameras on him. Admit to the mistake ffs

vectra

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Great race, bodes well for the rest of the season. Hopefully the problems with the Honda PU aren’t a regular occurrence.

Hats off to Hamilton, I don’t begrudge him the win because he obviously earned it. I wonder if it would have been different had Checo started in the top 4?

Great racing right down the field too — Leclerc, the McLarens getting racey with each other, and the Sainz - Alonso - Vettel scrap were all terrific watching.

That was brilliant while it lasted.:cool:

El_Duderino 09

AMKC wrote: »

...Vettel unlucky but he looks do be doing better in that car then the Ferrari.
Still strange seeing Carlos Seinz in a Ferrari but getting used to it. Charles Leclerc done good. Lando Norris done good. Sergio Perez done very good to from pit lane to 5th. I thought the penalty on Vettel was harsh. Not Vettels fault it was Ocans fault. ...

Looked like more of the same from Vettel. Unlucky to start so far back, was involved in the great racing with Alonso and Sainz and might have gotten into the points on his one stop strategy, then ballsed it up by crashing into someone. Very much his form from the last few years.

Are you saying it wasn’t vettel’s fault ironically or do you genuinely think it was Ocon’s fault? Looked to me like he ran into the back of the car in front and made up a fairly wild and obviously not true excuse. How did you see it?

El_Duderino 09

Great race. I was cheering for Max but can’t begrudge Hamilton the win today. He was not in the fastest car but still won. Have to give him credit for that.

quokula

BikeRacer wrote: »

Easy.

https://twitter.com/NorthHertsSam/status/1376267953977626628?s=19

Erm... nothing in that tweet says anything about it being ok to gain an advantage by going off track unless overtaking. Once again, overtaking isn't mentioned at all.

Glico Man

quokula wrote: »

Erm... nothing in that tweet says anything about it being ok to gain an advantage by going off track unless overtaking. Once again, overtaking isn't mentioned at all.

"Lasting advantage". That's what you need to be reading.

I'd imagine going off track and being able to overtake someone by doing so is gaining a lasting advantage. Which is why he was penalised.

I don't really get why this is difficult to understand. He gained an advantage by going off track. He was told this was against the rules, and as such penalised the advantage gained by giving the position back.

If you're looking for the word 'overtake' you won't find it, because it doesn't exist in that particular set of rules. To see the wood from the trees, you should be asking whether he gained an advantage or not by going all 4 wheels off the track. Which he did. And was penalised for it.

His own fault too. Had he any patience at all, he could've hung back and got Hamilton on either back straight or main straight or even the next lap going into the same corner. Its lack of experience and lack of temperament that cost him his win.

Cookie_Monster

skipper_G wrote: »

But that's not what happens. They do not have somebody monitoring every car at every corner for track limits. They do not have sensors in the tarmac to automatically detect them. What actually happens is, the race director forwards suspected infringements to the stewards for investigation. Assuming that was triggered By Red Bull's commenting on it via team radio, Hamilton was then instructed to stop or risk a black and white flag and subsequently a 5 second time penalty.

BS. Other race series manage to capture any and every car running wide at any corner and deal with it.
I watch Aussie Supercars religiously, nearly every weekend someone chances their arm at particular corners; they always get individual warnings and black flags in short order. F1 is the only race series I've ever watched that simply doesn't bother to enforce track limits 100% of the time consistently.

Cookie_Monster

BikeRacer wrote: »

Easy.

https://twitter.com/NorthHertsSam/status/1376267953977626628?s=19

official announcement that track limits mean nothing and will not monitored :rolleyes: farcical.
why even bother having track limits anywhere if they cannot be bothered to monitor or enforce them.

Frank Bullitt

That really felt like Red Bull losing the race as opposed to Merc winning it.

Bodes well for a tight season though, and I really really hope we get that. Cracking race and to have that kind of gap at the top, we would have given our grannies for that before.

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/wbuxtonofficial/status/1376318714858065930

Not usually one to agree with Buxton, but he nails it here.

flazio

OK recent historical example. Lando Norris in Austria, we all saw what he did at the last two turns in order to post fastest lap and get within 5 seconds of penalised Hamilton and take 3rd place. Going forward that surely shouldn't be allowed to stand anymore, should it? Should it even have stood then? Were those sporting regulations quoted in place then?

BikeRacer

BikeRacer wrote: »

Easy.

https://twitter.com/NorthHertsSam/status/1376267953977626628?s=19

The same guy also said this in that Twitter thread

https://twitter.com/northhertssam/status/1376272312400510977?s=21

Gaoth Laidir

For what it's worth, Max had fully passed Lewis before going off track. There is one aerial shot from the drivers' right which shows that perfectly. Max seems to have the wheels pointing straight ahead so it was just a slide under acceleration that took him out, but this was after he had passed.

He did not go off track before passing him.

donspeekinglesh

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

F1 is the only race series I've ever watched that simply doesn't bother to enforce track limits 100% of the time consistently.

IndyCar can be the same at times - the race at CotA was farcical.

Didn't realise Sam Collins was an elected Councillor now. He's a great technical analyst. His book Unraced ...: Formula One’s lost cars is a great read about the cars that never made it during the V10 era.

Keyzer

AMKC wrote: »

Going to be a long year for Haas. I would say William's will be glad they will not be last this year and who knows they might even score a point or two.

I wouldn't be surprised if Haas either folds, is sold or the team principal is sacked before the season is out.

There is only so much money Gene Haas is going to put into the team. They are going backwards. Great to a Schumacher back on the grid but he's driving a donkey. I don't care too much for Mazespin.

Harika

Keyzer wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if Haas either folds, is sold or the team principal is sacked before the season is out.

There is only so much money Gene Haas is going to put into the team. They are going backwards. Great to a Schumacher back on the grid but he's driving a donkey. I don't care too much for Mazespin.

Haas took this year on purpose, one upgrade and then focus on next year. Papa Mazepin is going to pay this and next year.
Btw this close title fight might open the door for one of the teams to jump to the front as red bull and Mercedes will hopefully develop until the last race.
Same thing happened for 2009 where in 2008 the title race between McLaren and Ferrari lasted until the last race what gave brawn and red bull the edge in the development race.

KevRossi

Stewards are to blame for the mess here.

Seems to be clear in the race rules that they weren't going to check the corner, but to then allow blatant crossing the line for 30 laps without pulling the drivers up on it is a bit odd. If that's the way they are stewarding it, then fair enough, but do so for the whole race.

To change their opinion on it after 30 laps or so makes them look bad and leads to confusion. Also hard to see how the cars that were going wide were not gaining an advantage for those 30 laps; they most certainly were.

Max going wide gave him an advantage during an overtake, he (or the team) decided to hand it back to Lewis. They didn't have much choice after being warned about it in Lap 30. It doesn't matter if he left the track before, during or after the overtake, he gained an advantage.

Also we all have the benefit in hindsight of knowing where and when Max might have had a better chance of overtaking, he made the decision to do it there and we can't fault him for that.

Either way a great few laps at the end, very exciting. Mercedes isn't slow, despite what Lewis says, they'll improve, just remains to be seen if RB can keep pace with them until December.

LollipopJimmy

I think what we saw yesterday bodes well. I dont really mind Hamilton winning even though I would love to see Honda crowned champs, its just close racing is more important and we got that right through the field.

Vettel blaming Ocon was embarrassing, if he'd have put his hand up I'd respect that but what he did was something I'd expect from Maldonado, he's experienced enough to know as soon as he went in behind the Alpine like that he was going to loose aero.

With Schumacher, kinda happy for him to trundle around and get seat time, the car is nowhere but the team has a few quid now from Mr. 'abhorrent behaviour' and new sponsors. Hopefully they'll tussle with Williams or maybe even snatch a few points later in the year

Top Dog

Keyzer wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if Haas either folds, is sold or the team principal is sacked before the season is out.

There is only so much money Gene Haas is going to put into the team. They are going backwards. Great to a Schumacher back on the grid but he's driving a donkey. I don't care too much for Mazespin.

You do realise that Nikita's father Dmitri is worth over $1.5 BILLION don't you? You really think he's going to let his sons team go to the wall and end his time in F1? While the name Haas might well disappear from the grid, the team won't be.

Burkie1203

KevRossi wrote: »

Stewards are to blame for the mess here.

Seems to be clear in the race rules that they weren't going to check the corner, but to then allow blatant crossing the line for 30 laps without pulling the drivers up on it is a bit odd. If that's the way they are stewarding it, then fair enough, but do so for the whole race.

To change their opinion on it after 30 laps or so makes them look bad and leads to confusion. Also hard to see how the cars that were going wide were not gaining an advantage for those 30 laps; they most certainly were.

Max going wide gave him an advantage during an overtake, he (or the team) decided to hand it back to Lewis. They didn't have much choice after being warned about it in Lap 30. It doesn't matter if he left the track before, during or after the overtake, he gained an advantage.

Also we all have the benefit in hindsight of knowing where and when Max might have had a better chance of overtaking, he made the decision to do it there and we can't fault him for that.

Either way a great few laps at the end, very exciting. Mercedes isn't slow, despite what Lewis says, they'll improve, just remains to be seen if RB can keep pace with them until December.

They deleted laps on Saturday in Quali because it is an advantage..

If LH ran wide 29 times as is widely reported and gained say 0.2s each time as an average he has literally gained 6 seconds on Max. If max came out after his 2nd stop only 2 or 3 seconds behind instead of 9s back he catches up quicker taking less out of his tyres to do so and has more chances to pass.


As Buxton says, if its legit when in clear air, it's legit when overtaking.

Brundle said in comms they have sensors out there. It cannot be that difficult to implement these days.

The track should be defined by white lines and staying within them.

recyclebin

Overtaking by leaving the track has always been policed. The fact that it happened at the same corner is just a coincidence and a separate problem. I was surprised they made such a quick call on it though and Max let him by so soon after. Normally stedards take an age to make decisions and leave it until after the race!

29 times!

https://twitter.com/smeajvevo/status/1376249961814327302?s=21

Gaoth Laidir

https://twitter.com/SmeajVEVO/status/1376276443165040643

McFly85

OSI wrote: »

Both Norris and LeClerc have confirmed the drivers were made aware they could cross the line at turn 4, as evidenced by almost the entire field doing so. The narrative shouldn't be "Why was Lewis let away with it", it should be "Why didn't Red Bull cop it and take similar advantage."

The narrative should be “why did the stewards change their mind and start enforcing track limits over halfway through the race”

McFly85

Yeah I don’t think many have an issue with the overtake(but I do agree with Buxtons view that if it’s allowed in one scenario it should be allowed for all).

The stewards clamping down after 30 odd laps makes it sound like the drivers shouldn’t have been doing it. Some drivers were doing it every lap as they were told that it wasn’t being monitored.

The stewards should have just left the drivers to exit the track at turn 4 for the rest of the race. Then it really would have been RBs fault for not understanding they could have been leaving the track at turn 4 too.

They could easily avoid this scenario in future by just agreeing that track limits should always be adhered to where possible.

Inquitus

This could all be sorted by putting really nasty curbs anywhere on the calendar you want track limits to be observed at a corner.

the_pen_turner

Inquitus wrote: »

This could all be sorted by putting really nasty curbs anywhere on the calendar you want track limits to be observed at a corner.

Or one of those bollards that you have to go around if you cut the corner

SureYWouldntYa

Inquitus wrote: »

This could all be sorted by putting really nasty curbs anywhere on the calendar you want track limits to be observed at a corner.

Or a gravel trap, wouldn't damage the car as much but that would stop the cutting quickly enough

Faugheen

OSI wrote: »

Both Norris and LeClerc have confirmed the drivers were made aware they could cross the line at turn 4, as evidenced by almost the entire field doing so. The narrative shouldn't be "Why was Lewis let away with it", it should be "Why didn't Red Bull cop it and take similar advantage."

No no, that type of narrative is not allowed here.

El_Duderino 09

McFly85 wrote: »

Yeah I don’t think many have an issue with the overtake(but I do agree with Buxtons view that if it’s allowed in one scenario it should be allowed for all).

The stewards clamping down after 30 odd laps makes it sound like the drivers shouldn’t have been doing it. Some drivers were doing it every lap as they were told that it wasn’t being monitored.

The stewards should have just left the drivers to exit the track at turn 4 for the rest of the race. Then it really would have been RBs fault for not understanding they could have been leaving the track at turn 4 too.

They could easily avoid this scenario in future by just agreeing that track limits should always be adhered to where possible.

It's even more worrying that the teams appear to be able to influence the rules over the team radio. Max was told that it's ok to go off the tract because Lewis has been doing it all race. A coupe of laps later Lewis got a warning about track limits.

They should set the rules and stick to them. I don't mind if they are allowed to run off the track or not, but it should be consistent. Last year we were complaining in his thread about them implementing the track limit rules, this year we're complaining about them not imposing the rules and then implementing them half way through the race.

I wouldn't have a problem if they put grass or other surface there to penalise the drivers (slippery to lose time or abrasive to wear tyres). And let the driver decide whether they want to go off track or not.

recyclebin

It did look like the stewards were being influenced by Red Bull but it was hilarious to see it biting Reb Bull and Max in the arse later in the race!!!

recyclebin

Four wheels over the white line is considered off the track for an overtake. Curbs should be ignored in this case.

Burkie1203

recyclebin wrote: »

Four wheels over the white line is considered off the track for an overtake. Curbs should be ignored in this case.

But it was a racing line for the rest of the race. Just not the few seconds Max was racing there.

KevRossi

Burkie1203 wrote: »

But it was a racing line for the rest of the race. Just not the few seconds Max was racing there.

It was the racing line for the first half of the race, then the stewards changed it.
They shouldn't be changing stuff like that over the course of the weekend, let alone in the middle of the race.

It's the fault of the stewards we're discussing this rather than discussing how good of a final few laps it was.

Gaoth Laidir

Right, here it is from Michael Masi's mouth. So contrary to Faugheen's claims, not every other car was doing it. Lewis was the only one doing it consistently, which no doubt gave him a lasting advantage with regards to overall race time.

The policing of track limits at Turn 4 was a hot topic throughout the Bahrain Grand Prix race weekend. But despite some question marks over how certain drivers interpreted the rules, FIA Race Director Michael Masi insisted that his guidance to the teams throughout the weekend had been clear.

It was eventual winner Lewis Hamilton who was heard being warned on team radio by his race engineer Pete Bonnington to stop using a line at the exit of Turn 4 which saw his car go beyond the red and white kerb during the race – and which, according to Red Bull Team Principal Christian Horner, would have given Hamilton a 0.2s per lap advantage.

That line had been deemed illegal for practice and qualifying, but according to the Race Directors’ Notes wouldn’t be monitored during the Grand Prix. But speaking after the race, Masi explained why the stewards ended up threatening Hamilton with a black and white flag if he continued using that line.

“With regard to tolerance given with people running outside of the track limits during the race,” said Masi, “it was mentioned very clearly in the [drivers’] meeting and the notes that it would not be monitored with regard to setting the lap time so to speak – but it will always be monitored in according with the Sporting Regulations that a lasting advantage overall must not be gained.

“Nothing changed at all during the race,” he added. “We had two people that were looking in that area at every car at every lap and pretty much every car bar one was doing the right thing within what we expected in a general sequence. There was the occasional car that had a bit of a moment or went out there but it wasn’t a constant thing.”

Masi also responded to questions on why, when Red Bull’s Max Verstappen had passed Hamilton for the lead using the same wide Turn 4 line, he’d had to give the position back to Hamilton – in a move which ensured the seven-time champion won the season opener.

“So it is quite different and clearly specifically different and consistent with both notes and what was mentioned and discussed with drivers in the driver meeting,” said Masi. “If an overtake takes place with a car off track and gains an advantage, a lasting advantage, I will go on the radio and suggest to the team that they immediately relinquish that position, and that was made very clear.

“Red Bull were actually given an instruction immediately by myself that I suggested they relinquish that position as listed in the Sporting Regulations, which they did. It wasn’t for exceeding track limits – it was for gaining a lasting advantage by overtaking another car off the race track.”

Inquitus

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Right, here it is from Michael Masi's mouth. So contrary to Faugheen's claims, not every other car was doing it. Lewis was the only one doing it consistently, which no doubt gave him a lasting advantage with regards to overall race time.

Only it obviously didn't per Masi, as Masi didn't penalise him, you can't have it both ways, lol.

Faugheen

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Right, here it is from Michael Masi's mouth. So contrary to Faugheen's claims, not every other car was doing it. Lewis was the only one doing it consistently, which no doubt gave him a lasting advantage with regards to overall race time.

If it gave him a lasting advantage then why wasn’t he punished?

Seriously, as posted above, you can’t have it both ways.

Gaoth Laidir

So his 30 laps at around 0.2 s per lap didn't add up to an advantage? If it didn't then why tell him to stop?

Gaoth Laidir

Faugheen wrote: »

‘Without justifiable reason’
‘Without gaining a lasting advantage’.

What do you suppose overtaking while off the track does?

What do you suppose going off the track for 29 laps does? You can't have it both ways...

Also, do you now accept that "every single team except Red Bull" were NOT doing that, as you repeatedly claimed yesterday?

Faugheen wrote: »

Again. Mercedes were not allowed to ‘steal’ everything.

Every single team except Red Bull were doing this ‘at the discretion of the race director’. Then they decided to tell Max to start doing it.

Max then went off the track while overtaking therefore ‘gaining a lasting advantage’.

It really is that simple.

Faugheen wrote: »

Why did everybody bar Red Bull do it then?

Faugheen wrote: »

And yet everybody bar Red Bull were doing it.

Funny that