United Ireland Poll - please vote

jh79

guy2231 wrote: »

How about the "ownership of Ireland for the people of Ireland"?

So we as the people of Ireland have 100% control over our future without any interference from the British Government like we have seen recently with the border and we will be seeing over and over again to a worse extent.

Have you no pride in your country? Is all you care about keeping your pockets filled to the brim?

If my pockets were "filled to the brim" I'd be less worried on the economic dangers of a UI.

Pride over common sense led to Brexit.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course it will make a difference - the integrity of the single market is secured for starters.

You have been given multiple benefits across society of a UI - you just want to ignore them and focus on what you think will secure partition - your wallet.

Integrity of the single market is an advantage but we'll see how the NI protocol plays out first.

I was given imaginary sticks and carrots. You gave up on the financial "benefits" very quickly. Bigots in NI are still gonna be bigots whether there is a UI or not.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my last question on what is "broken" in the Republic that can only be fixed with unification?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Integrity of the single market is an advantage but we'll see how the NI protocol plays out first.

I was given imaginary sticks and carrots. You gave up on the financial "benefits" very quickly. Bigots in NI are still gonna be bigots whether there is a UI or not.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my last question on what is "broken" in the Republic that can only be fixed with unification?

There will be the same if not better 'financial benefits'.
Economies of scale, the attractiveness of a single market secured English speaking, EU friendly economy will pertain even more than it does now.

'Governance' is broken in the republic via a toxic power swap. How many tribunals and inquiries do you need before you admit that to yourself?

Junkyard Tom

jh79 wrote: »

Partition or end it doesn't change any threat from the British.

The British state was involved in a vicious conflict here not so long ago and far from being the benevolent peace-keeping force liars in the south and unionist extremists in the north would have you believe it was up to its knees in our blood.

A United Ireland will take that threat off the table as it would be literally an invasion if they ever did land back in Ireland uninvited.

When that loaded cannon is pointed away from us we can work on making former unionists comfortable in a new Ireland as the current lot are a legacy of Britain's violent history here and their primary concern is maintaining the British presence rather than advancing the fortunes of our people.

jh79

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The British state was involved in a vicious conflict here not so long ago and far from being the benevolent peace-keeping force liars in the south and unionist extremists in the north would have you believe it was up to its knees in our blood.

A United Ireland will take that threat off the table as it would be literally an invasion if they ever did land back in Ireland uninvited.

When that loaded cannon is pointed away from us we can work on making former unionists comfortable in a new Ireland as the current lot are a legacy of Britain's violent history here and their primary concern is maintaining the British presence rather than advancing the fortunes of our people.

While I don't see the British as a military threat, your logic is flawed. There is no difference between them invading Cavan tomorrow or doing it in the event of a UI. The Irish Sea isn't going to stop them if they were that way inclined.

guy2231

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The British state was involved in a vicious conflict here not so long ago and far from being the benevolent peace-keeping force liars in the south and unionist extremists in the north would have you believe it was up to its knees in our blood.

A United Ireland will take that threat off the table as it would be literally an invasion if they ever did land back in Ireland uninvited.

When that loaded cannon is pointed away from us we can work on making former unionists comfortable in a new Ireland as the current lot are a legacy of Britain's violent history here and their primary concern is maintaining the British presence rather than advancing the fortunes of our people.

Apart from all the hundreds of innocent civilians killed by loyalists on the orders of British intelligence there are also tons of cases like this.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/man-shot-dead-in-1972-was-killed-by-army-not-ira-38512231.html

The family of a Protestant man shot dead during the Troubles said they want records to be corrected to show he was killed by the army and not the IRA.
Thomas Mills (56) was shot dead at Finlay's packaging factory, where he worked as a security guard, in Belfast in 1972.
He's family previously believed the IRA were responsible for his killing, however they have now told BBC NI a draft Historical Enquiries Team report found the army carried out the shooting.

The relatives said "We just want the truth to be out and I'm sure there's a lot of people in the same situation as us."

Units like the MRF (secret army unit) went around using IRA guns during the early 70s shooting innocent civilians while attributing the deaths to the IRA to drain their support.

Junkyard Tom

jh79 wrote: »

While I don't see the British as a military threat, your logic is flawed. There is no difference between them invading Cavan tomorrow or doing it in the event of a UI. The Irish Sea isn't going to stop them if they were that way inclined.

It would be an international incident with consequences in Washington and on the continent, and with defence alliances with other countries, say France hypothetically, it would not happen at all.

revelman

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

GB has for generations been the greatest threat to the Irish people and remains so in the 21st Century.

Just stumbled into this thread by accident so may be missing the context of these remarks. But is this actually for real?

We can debate history but you think that GB “remains” the biggest threat to the Irish people in the 21st century?

I think the Irish people face plenty of threats (Climate Change, unchecked neoliberalism (encouraged in no small part by the EU actually), global overpopulation, pandemics etc). How on earth is GB our biggest threat?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There will be the same if not better 'financial benefits'.
Economies of scale, the attractiveness of a single market secured English speaking, EU friendly economy will pertain even more than it does now.

'Governance' is broken in the republic via a toxic power swap. How many tribunals and inquiries do you need before you admit that to yourself?

Economies of scale will bring some benefits but would take generations to cancel out the 20/30 years of dramatic tax increases required to get back to the Republics current levels.

We already offer a English speak economy with access to the EU. It's what our economy is built on. The extra 6 counties is not an incentive to FDI. The advantage NI has with access to both the EU and UK disappears with a UI.

I think this is your true motivation. Dilute the influence of FF/FG so SF can be the biggest. A bit strange for a guy who only started voting SF in the last election.

When did you have your epiphany by the way?

Junkyard Tom

jh79 wrote: »

SF can be the biggest.

Don't panic, in a UI SF will be counter-balanced by everyone else in the north, i.e. a majority.

Also SF loses its whole UI shtick after unification, in fact a large pro-UK block would be a headache for SF.

jh79

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It would be an international incident with consequences in Washington and on the continent, and with defence alliances with other countries, say France hypothetically, it would not happen at all.

And how does unification prevent this frorm happening!

So lets get this straight, the UK invades while we have partition and the EU/USA do nothing but if we have unification they will react?

Can you not see how ridiculous that claim is?

jh79

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Don't panic, in a UI SF will be counter-balanced by everyone else in the north, i.e. a majority.

Also SF loses its whole UI shtick after unification, in fact a large pro-UK block would be a headache for SF.

Not worried, just wish Francie would just say it outright instead of inventing vague benefits for a UI.

Junkyard Tom

jh79 wrote: »

the UK invades while we have partition

That's not an invasion, that's manoeuvres.

The British Army has bases in the north, you know this surely? It has MI5 people operating there. That sort of thing becomes an international incident in a United Ireland.

jh79

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

That's not an invasion, that's manoeuvres.

The British Army has bases in the north, you know this surely? It has MI5 people operating there. That sort of thing becomes an international incident in a United Ireland.

It's there country / region of course they have bases. We all agreed it was there country / region when we voted for the GFA. We accepted their sovereignty from that day on unless a majority say otherwise.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Economies of scale will bring some benefits but would take generations to cancel out the 20/30 years of dramatic tax increases required to get back to the Republics current levels.

We already offer a English speak economy with access to the EU. It's what our economy is built on. The extra 6 counties is not an incentive to FDI. The advantage NI has with access to both the EU and UK disappears with a UI.

I think this is your true motivation. Dilute the influence of FF/FG so SF can be the biggest. A bit strange for a guy who only started voting SF in the last election.

When did you have your epiphany by the way?

More of the hand waving and negativity.

It's gas to watch it. You can't do anything but the negativity. While also admitting yet again that some benefit will accrue.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

More of the hand waving and negativity.

It's gas to watch it. You can't do anything but the negativity. While also admitting yet again that some benefit will accrue.

Ok Francie a simple question, what makes a unified Ireland more attractive to FDI?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Ok Francie a simple question, what makes a unified Ireland more attractive to FDI?

A society free to move ahead as part of one of the biggest trading blocks on the planet. Without the vagaries presented by a partition that has tragically failed everyone of us on this island and in Britain.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A society free to move ahead as part of one of the biggest trading blocks on the planet. Without the vagaries presented by a partition that has tragically failed everyone of us on this island and in Britain.

That's a nothing answer.

The Republic is a free society that economically speaking punches well above it's weight already.

How does unification improve that?

Why not just be honest and say there are no advantages and you just what the Brits Out?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

That's a nothing answer.

The Republic is a free society that economically speaking punches well above it's weight already.

How does unification improve that?

Why not just there are no advantages and you just what the Brits Out?

Are you totally unaware of the issues Brexit has caused for us, right across the business sphere.

What if the UK decides to diverge some more or refuses to work the protocol. Wake up and smell the coffee here.

I see now that it suits the agenda that we 'punch well above our weight' but we cannot make an investment in our future. Jaysus the twisting.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you totally unaware of the issues Brexit has caused for us, right across the business sphere.

What if the UK decides to diverge some more or refuses to work the protocol. Wake up and smell the coffee here.

I see now that it suits the agenda that we 'punch well above our weight' but we cannot make an investment in our future. Jaysus the twisting.

As i have already said, wait and see what happens with the Protocol.

You claim an "All Ireland" economy benefits us. It's a simple question, how?

Whatcar212

jh79 wrote: »

Ok Francie a simple question, what makes a unified Ireland more attractive to FDI?

Access to two major cities (which would be the 2nd and 4th largest in the country) as potential locations to set up business with much lower costs than Dublin and an international airport on the doorstep.

Hamsterchops

revelman wrote: »

Just stumbled into this thread by accident so may be missing the context of these remarks. But is this actually for real?

We can debate history but you think that GB “remains” the biggest threat to the Irish people in the 21st century?

I think the Irish people face plenty of threats (Climate Change, unchecked neoliberalism (encouraged in no small part by the EU actually), global overpopulation, pandemics etc). How on earth is GB our biggest threat?

Yes it is a bit like stumbling into the Twilight Zone, but I'm frequently reminded by one or two regular posters that GB really is a dangerous & serious threat to Ireland, an Emperial bully ready to mobilise and invade Ireland at any moment :cool:

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

As i have already said, wait and see what happens with the Protocol.

You claim an "All Ireland" economy benefits us. It's a simple question, how?

Wait and see, :rolleyes: The power swap mantra - doff the hat, stand idly by...100 years of tragedy.

Time to be proactive.

It has been pointed out what the benefits are already, several times. You just handwave them away.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wait and see, :rolleyes: The power swap mantra - doff the hat, stand idly by...100 years of tragedy.

Time to be proactive.

It has been pointed out what the benefits are already, several times. You just handwave them away.

Saying a few trite buzz words isn't an answer. Something something "free society", something something "All Ireland Economy".

Using "doff the hat" too for saying an all ireland economy offers no advantage? Jaysus you're floundering.

What part of an all ireland economy offers an advantage to the Republic that isn't already available?

jh79

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Yes it is a bit like stumbling into the Twilight Zone, but I'm frequently reminded by one or two regular posters that GB really is a dangerous & serious threat to Ireland, an Emperial bully ready to mobilise and invade Ireland at any moment :cool:

The best bit is that the Irish Sea would be an insurmountable obstacle to the British military!

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Saying a few trite buzz words isn't an answer. Something something "free society", something something "All Ireland Economy".

Using "doff the hat" too for saying an all ireland economy offers no advantage? Jaysus you're floundering.

What part of an all ireland economy offers an advantage to the Republic that isn't already available?

Pointed out several times by several posters.

What 'disadvantages' does it offer?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Pointed out several times by several posters.

What 'disadvantages' does it offer?

C'mon Francie, nothing has been pointed out several times. Just saying "An All Ireland" economy repeatedly is not an answer. You have not been able to offer one single example of this benefit.

The disadvantages are the dramatic tax increases required to fix NI with no guarantee that it will work.

The day after unification our economy returns to the levels of the last crash due to the huge increase in population with little increase in GDP.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

C'mon Francie, nothing has been pointed out several times. Just saying "An All Ireland" economy repeatedly is not an answer. You have not been able to offer one single example of this benefit.

The disadvantages are the dramatic tax increases required to fix NI with no guarantee that it will work.

The day after unification our economy returns to the levels of the last crash due to the huge increase in population with little increase in GDP.

The scary stuff the partitionists will have to depend on.

'The day after unification'.... doom, we're all doomed.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The scary stuff the partitionists will have to depend on.

'The day after unification'.... doom, we're all doomed.

So I take you have nothing to offer as an advantage? To be honest I wasn't expecting an answer because there are none.

Francie, be careful before you start saying it's not a "failed statelet" after all

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

So I take you have nothing to offer as an advantage? To be honest I wasn't expecting an answer because there are none.

Expect the one I pointed out just a few posts ago that you blithely waved away in order to continue the now trenchant negativity while also increasing the personal invective.

An integrated Ireland would create economies of scale and therefore a more competitive economy which would be much more attractive for our own entrepreneurs and foreign investment.

Also remember that for me 'us' includes all the people of the island.