United Ireland Poll - please vote

Hamsterchops · 14-06-2021 9:44pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

As regards Ireland people identify as:

Irish, because this is Ireland where Irish people are from.

Northern Irish, because they come from the north of Ireland.

British, because they despise that they live in Ireland amongst the Irish

The north of Ireland does of course include Donegal, whereas Northern Ireland (founded 100 years ago) what some might call the six counties, is separate and apart from us, ergo its part of the UK and not part of this country, although I guess we all aspire for it to leave the UK, thus creating a United Ireland.

Repeat after me ...
Northern Ireland.

by the way, I'm not so sure about the "they despise" bit, not sure that's true at all.

FrancieBrady · 14-06-2021 9:54pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

The north of Ireland does of course include Donegal, whereas Northern Ireland (founded 100 years ago) what some might call the six counties, is separate and apart from us, ergo its part of the UK and not part of this country, although I guess we all aspire for it to leave the UK, thus creating a United Ireland.

Repeat after me ...
Northern Ireland.

by the way, I'm not so sure about the "they despise" bit, not sure that's true at all.

They partitioned the country of Ireland, a partition that failed so badly the partitioned bit is now the subject of an international agreement between Ireland and the UK and in limbo.
The country never ceased existing.

downcow · 14-06-2021 10:01pm

guy2231 wrote: »

Can please what Sinn Fein members have been involved in sectarian killings?

Please enlighten us.

Here is a wee song with a verse in it about the killing of 12 Protestants in La Mon
https://youtu.be/L6NAATVaZ64

Shebean · 14-06-2021 10:27pm

downcow wrote: »

Here is a wee song with a verse in it about the killing of 12 Protestants in La Mon
https://youtu.be/L6NAATVaZ64

You could just say you didn't have any names.

Try as you might, it's not about religion. It's about self interest disguised as culture. Pesky inconvenient equality.

ittakestwo · 14-06-2021 10:30pm

downcow wrote: »

You are dancing between the country Ireland and the island Ireland. Very hard to have a discussion when you won’t just discuss one at a time

Where in the post #3410 did I refer to the ROI. 3 times Ireland was mentioned and each time I am referring to Ireland and not the ROI. How could you think any of those times I was referring to the ROI.

ittakestwo · 14-06-2021 10:34pm

downcow wrote: »

You are dancing between the country Ireland and the island Ireland. Very hard to have a discussion when you won’t just discuss one at a time

BTW the Patron Saint of the Irish is St. Patrick. Who is the Patron Saint of where you live Downcow?

downcow · 14-06-2021 10:49pm

ittakestwo wrote: »

Where in the post #3410 did I refer to the ROI. 3 times Ireland was mentioned and each time I am referring to Ireland and not the ROI. How could you think any of those times I was referring to the ROI.

I am no expert on your country but I understand it is called Ireland and that there is no such country as ROI. Could some of our resident Irish historians help us out?

downcow · 14-06-2021 10:51pm

ittakestwo wrote: »

BTW the Patron Saint of the Irish is St. Patrick. Who is the Patron Saint of where you live Downcow?

Absolutely. He spent precious little time in the country now known as Ireland. The vast majority of his time was spent in ni and gb Now why does that remind me of many of your international footballers lol

FrancieBrady · 14-06-2021 11:04pm

downcow wrote: »

Absolutely. He spent precious little time in the country now known as Ireland. The vast majority of his time was spent in ni and gb Now why does that remind me of many of your international footballers lol

He is the patron saint because he was in 'Ireland' downcow.

Every time you try this on you make yourself look sillier. As if you keep saying it, it will become fact. The recent Unionist aversion to being Irish is funny stuff.

ittakestwo · 14-06-2021 11:05pm

downcow wrote: »

I am no expert on your country but I understand it is called Ireland and that there is no such country as ROI. Could some of our resident Irish historians help us out?

The jurisdiction can be refereed to as the ROI

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_Act_1948

But that's what it is. A man made jurisdiction that can call itself what it likes, just like NI. Both jurisdiction are within Ireland tho and both jurisdictions have St. Patrick as their patron saint as he is the patron saint of the Irish.

The Dark Knight · 14-06-2021 11:07pm

downcow wrote: »

I am no expert on your country but I understand it is called Ireland and that there is no such country as ROI. Could some of our resident Irish historians help us out?

Completely correct. The official names of this country is Ireland or Éire. It's Ireland that you see in the United nations, EU, etc. The only semi-official use of Republic of Ireland is by football authorities like UEFA and FIFA.

ittakestwo · 14-06-2021 11:14pm

downcow wrote: »

Absolutely. He spent precious little time in the country now known as Ireland. The vast majority of his time was spent in ni and gb Now why does that remind me of many of your international footballers lol

You having a go at Irish footballers is very hypocritical. People born in Britain to Irish parents cant call themselves Irish. But people in Ireland whos ancestors came here 10+ generations ago from Britain can still refer themselves as British lol.

ittakestwo · 14-06-2021 11:16pm

The Dark Knight wrote: »

Completely correct. The official names of this country is Ireland or Éire. It's Ireland that you see in the United nations, EU, etc. The only semi-official use of Republic of Ireland is by football authorities like UEFA and FIFA.

It can be officially be referred to as the ROI as well

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_Act_1948

guy2231 · 14-06-2021 11:31pm

So according to downcow there were no Irish people prior to 1922 or 1937 to be precise.

Joseph Plunkett, Padraig Pearse, Tom Clarke none of them were Irish apparently.

dam099 · 15-06-2021 12:45am

ittakestwo wrote: »

It can be officially be referred to as the ROI as well

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_Act_1948

Did you read that article? According to that it can be described as the Republic of Ireland but the official name is still only Ireland or Eire.

ittakestwo · 15-06-2021 1:44am

dam099 wrote: »

Did you read that article? According to that it can be described as the Republic of Ireland but the official name is still only Ireland or Eire.

Yes I did read it..... "may be officially be described as the republic of Ireland " .... so the republic of Ireland may officially be used as the description of the jurisdiction.

Fionn1952 · 15-06-2021 4:52am

ittakestwo wrote: »

Yes I did read it..... "may be officially be described as the republic of Ireland " .... so the republic of Ireland may officially be used as the description of the jurisdiction.

As the description would be the key part there. The official name of the state is Ireland or Éire, as per the Constitution.

An Act isn't a Constitutional Ammendment, and it would have been unconstitutional to try and change the name of the state via an Act.

downcow · 15-06-2021 6:40am

guy2231 wrote: »

So according to downcow there were no Irish people prior to 1922 or 1937 to be precise.

Joseph Plunkett, Padraig Pearse, Tom Clarke none of them were Irish apparently.

No idea what you are talking about?

Hamsterchops · 15-06-2021 7:24am

Fionn1952 wrote: »

As the description would be the key part there. The official name of the state is Ireland or Éire, as per the Constitution.

An Act isn't a Constitutional Ammendment, and it would have been unconstitutional to try and change the name of the state via an Act.

I've seen posters getting very annoyed with the media for using Éire, instead of Ireland, so it's all very tricky (specially for the British media) who try to differentiate between this part of the island and that part (which is not the ROI) nor is it Eire, and it's certainly not Southern Ireland either, yet it's heavily impacted by Brexit and it's still in the EU :cool:

You can see how this is a conundrum for many outside this state who need to differentiate between the two jurisdictions on the island, hence The Republic ROI, to distinguish it from Northern Ireland.

Fionn1952 · 15-06-2021 9:59am

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I've seen posters getting very annoyed with the media for using Éire, instead of Ireland, so it's all very tricky (specially for the British media) who try to differentiate between this part of the island and that part (which is not the ROI) nor is it Eire, and it's certainly not Southern Ireland either, yet it's heavily impacted by Brexit and it's still in the EU :cool:

You can see how this is a conundrum for many outside this state who need to differentiate between the two jurisdictions on the island, hence The Republic ROI, to distinguish it from Northern Ireland.

Well Éire shouldn't be used when speaking English, much like you wouldn't refer to Deutschland when speaking English, but I can't say I recall anyone getting very annoyed with the media for that. It is a minor peeve when the British media had a tendency to refer to it as Eire, without the É.

I find Ireland and Northern Ireland perfectly fine for differentiating between the two, and referring to, 'the island of Ireland' quite clear when I need to make it clear I am talking about both jurisdictions. People referring to it as RoI doesn't really bother me; we use all sorts of informal names for places (and it'd make an awful hypocrite of me referring to back home as the North), but it is absolutely not correct to say that RoI is the name of the state; the Constitution lays out the name of the state quite clearly, the Act makes it clear that RoI is a description, akin to how it would be perfectly fine to describe France as the French Republic, but that wouldn't change the name of France.

guy2231 · 15-06-2021 11:31am

If Britain hadn't put a gun to our heads and threatened "immediate and terrible war" if we didn't go along with partition which then caused a civil war in the 1920s then another war in the late 60s which lasted 30 years then all the problems we are currently facing and the horrors of the last 100 years could have been avoided.

Only when we put an end to partition can we truly live in peace and harmony and begin to thrive and come together as a nation, onece partition ends protestants in the North will no longer be able to call themselves British and the Unionist ideology would die out very quickly.

guy2231 · 15-06-2021 11:35am

downcow wrote: »

No idea what you are talking about?

Of course you don't, I know you are a little slow so let me explain in simpler terms.

You were saying that people from Northern Ireland are not Irish, using examples of football players from Northern Ireland playing for the ROI, you are claiming they are British not Irish.

What I was saying is that prior to 1922 or 1937 to be precise, all of Ireland was under British rule so by using the logic you are now using then anyone in Ireland prior to 1937 was ever Irish.

blanch152 · 15-06-2021 12:51pm

guy2231 wrote: »

So according to downcow there were no Irish people prior to 1922 or 1937 to be precise.

Joseph Plunkett, Padraig Pearse, Tom Clarke none of them were Irish apparently.

Of course there were Irish people, just like there people of the Kingdom, Dubs, etc. Nobody should be denied a right to their identity, that doesn't mean that identity entitles them to anything.

ittakestwo · 15-06-2021 12:57pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

As the description would be the key part there. The official name of the state is Ireland or Éire, as per the Constitution.

An Act isn't a Constitutional Ammendment, and it would have been unconstitutional to try and change the name of the state via an Act.

It officially can be described as the ROI. Anybody can describe the country as the ROI without being told you cant say that. Under the GFA the country does not claim territory over the whole of Ireland so why would I call a sovereign jurisdiction that only covers part of Ireland a name that implies it covers it all.

If the sovereign country did cover all of Ireland then this thread would be dormant.

Fionn1952 · 15-06-2021 1:03pm

ittakestwo wrote: »

Under the GFA the country does not claim territory over the whole of Ireland so why would I call a sovereign jurisdiction that only covers part of Ireland a name that implies it covers it all.

....the obvious reason would be because that's the name of the country, as per our Constitution.

Hamsterchops · 15-06-2021 1:06pm

guy2231 wrote: »

If Britain hadn't put a gun to our heads and threatened "immediate and terrible war" if we didn't go along with partition which then caused a civil war in the 1920s then another war in the late 60s which lasted 30 years then all the problems we are currently facing and the horrors of the last 100 years could have been avoided.

I suspect there was a little more to the reasons for partition other than The British putting a gun to our heads, for what alternative was there other than partition? Unless you would have preferred a real war against the North. A proper war with tens of thousands killed as Unionist fought Nationalist!

Partition may have been a bloody awful choice, but the other choice would have been truly & literally bloody (which would have made our little civil war look like a picnic by comparrison), and I presume the 30 year "war" you refer to was the Troubles, which was in essence a Terrorist campaign waged by the PIRA.

guy2231 wrote: »

Only when we put an end to partition can we truly live in peace and harmony and begin to thrive and come together as a nation, onece partition ends protestants in the North will no longer be able to call themselves British and the Unionist ideology would die out very quickly.

An end to partition will only happen when the reasons for partition have dissipated, those reason being the fact that the Unionist population Up North wish to remain connected to Great Britain, same as they did 100 years ago, while we still want them to separate from GB and to become one with us.

Partition exists because they are Unionists and we are not, they sing God save the Queen while we sing Amhran na bhFiann, they are British and we are not, and on it goes ,,,,,

ittakestwo · 15-06-2021 1:09pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

....the obvious reason would be because that's the name of the country, as per our Constitution.

When the constitution was written the country was claiming all of Ireland. It now isn't.

Ireland is divided between the jurisdictions of the ROI and UK.

Ireland is divided between the jurisdictions of Ireland and the UK.

The second sentence just sounds confusing.

Fionn1952 · 15-06-2021 1:17pm

ittakestwo wrote: »

When the constitution was written the country was claiming all of Ireland. It now isn't.

Ireland is divided between the jurisdictions of the ROI and UK.

Ireland is divided between the jurisdictions of Ireland and the UK.

The second sentence just sounds confusing.

The GFA led to the removal of the constitutional claim we made over Northern Ireland, it didn't change the name of the state which is very clearly enshrined therein. No matter how awkward you find it, Ireland or Éire are the official names of the state, and should you wish that changed, you would have to campaign to have the Constitution changed.

'The island of Ireland is divided between the jurisdictions of Ireland and the UK' while not the prettiest sentence in the world wouldn't be sufficient reason to warrant changing the Constitution in my opinion, and would be the correct phrase until that change is made. RoI is a description of the state, not the name of the state.

ittakestwo · 15-06-2021 1:27pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The GFA led to the removal of the constitutional claim we made over Northern Ireland, it didn't change the name of the state which is very clearly enshrined therein. No matter how awkward you find it, Ireland or Éire are the official names of the state, and should you wish that changed, you would have to campaign to have the Constitution changed.

'The island of Ireland is divided between the jurisdictions of Ireland and the UK' while not the prettiest sentence in the world wouldn't be sufficient reason to warrant changing the Constitution in my opinion, and would be the correct phrase until that change is made. RoI is a description of the state, not the name of the state.

Ireland does not need to have the word island infront of it. Everyone knows Ireland is an island and if you're from Ireland you're irish. Our constitution can never change the name of Ireland. Our constitution can be changed by calling the jurisdiction something that does not imply it covers all of the Ireland.

Anyway people can officially describe the country as the ROI (not saying that is the name in the constitution) and it to have the same meaning as the country. If ROI was used in a contract it could not be voided by claiming the ROI description was inaccurate etc.

Hamsterchops · 15-06-2021 2:01pm

ittakestwo wrote: »

Ireland does not need to have the word island infront of it. Everyone knows Ireland is an island and if you're from Ireland you're irish. Our constitution can never change the name of Ireland.

...unless you're from Northern Ireland and you're British. NI is also part of this island but is part of the UK, hence 'Ireland' is not always good enough, specially as 1/5th of this island is not of this State!

Northern Ireland is a region of the United Kingdom.

United Ireland Poll - please vote

Comments