United Ireland Poll - please vote

blanch152

guy2231 wrote: »

Republic and Unionist being the two majorities while partionists are mainly quiet about their beliefs and are a minority in the republic, they constantly advocate against a united Ireland while hiding behind "well maybe in 50 years"

IF only it was so simple. That is the problem with the exclusionary nationalists and the extreme unionists, they only see things in black and white. Sometimes they have more in common than they realise.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

IF only it was so simple. That is the problem with the exclusionary nationalists and the extreme unionists, they only see things in black and white. Sometimes they have more in common than they realise.

Says the legendary poster who lays everything at SF's door. Brilliant blanch!

blanch152

https://www.finegael.ie/speech-of-the-tanaiste-leo-varadkar-at-the-opening-of-the-2021-fine-gael-ard-fheis/

Found a copy of Varadkar's speech so that the exclusionary nationalists can read it....

"We know the crude vision espoused by Sinn Féin, it’s not an inclusive one – a cold form of republicanism, socialist, narrow nationalism, protectionist, anti-British, euro-critical, ourselves alone, 50% plus one and nobody else is needed. That is not a 21st century vision.

Our vision should be different. It should be one that has the best chance of carrying the greatest number of people with us, North and South.

It should appeal in particular to that middle ground I spoke about earlier, to gain the support of people who identify as both British and Irish.
So, Unification must not be the annexation of Northern Ireland. It means something more, a new state designed together, a new constitution and one that reflects the diversity of a bi-national or multi-national state in which almost a million people are British. Like the New South Africa, a rainbow nation, not just orange and green.

We have to be willing to consider all that we’d be willing to change – new titles, shared symbols, how devolution in the North would fit into the new arrangements, a new Senate to strengthen the representation of minorities, the role and status of our languages, a new and closer relationship with the United Kingdom.

We also need to map out how we can take the best of both jurisdictions and apply them across Ireland as a whole, perhaps our welfare and pensions system, their NHS to give just two examples.
And also what might remain different, because unification is not assimilation, for example, perhaps education or maintaining two legal systems.

Until these questions are answered, until we have a clear proposition to put to the people on both parts of our island, then a border poll is premature."

I am not convinced that we are ready or even mature enough as a society to have this conversation, but I will listen with interest. It is certainly far far different from the type of conversation that SF wants.

Incidentally, he also repeats the notion of the third category of Northern Irelanders, a concept that so many on here fear so much that they deny its existence.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.finegael.ie/speech-of-the-tanaiste-leo-varadkar-at-the-opening-of-the-2021-fine-gael-ard-fheis/

Found a copy of Varadkar's speech so that the exclusionary nationalists can read it....

"We know the crude vision espoused by Sinn Féin, it’s not an inclusive one – a cold form of republicanism, socialist, narrow nationalism, protectionist, anti-British, euro-critical, ourselves alone, 50% plus one and nobody else is needed. That is not a 21st century vision.

Our vision should be different. It should be one that has the best chance of carrying the greatest number of people with us, North and South.

It should appeal in particular to that middle ground I spoke about earlier, to gain the support of people who identify as both British and Irish.
So, Unification must not be the annexation of Northern Ireland. It means something more, a new state designed together, a new constitution and one that reflects the diversity of a bi-national or multi-national state in which almost a million people are British. Like the New South Africa, a rainbow nation, not just orange and green.

We have to be willing to consider all that we’d be willing to change – new titles, shared symbols, how devolution in the North would fit into the new arrangements, a new Senate to strengthen the representation of minorities, the role and status of our languages, a new and closer relationship with the United Kingdom.

We also need to map out how we can take the best of both jurisdictions and apply them across Ireland as a whole, perhaps our welfare and pensions system, their NHS to give just two examples.
And also what might remain different, because unification is not assimilation, for example, perhaps education or maintaining two legal systems.

Until these questions are answered, until we have a clear proposition to put to the people on both parts of our island, then a border poll is premature."

I am not convinced that we are ready or even mature enough as a society to have this conversation, but I will listen with interest. It is certainly far far different from the type of conversation that SF wants.

Incidentally, he also repeats the notion of the third category of Northern Irelanders, a concept that so many on here fear so much that they deny its existence.

So go ahead Leo...you are in the government...make your proposal. Would be my answer to him.
SF have. FF and FG's turn to make a better one, if they are serious about wanting a UI.

guy2231

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So go ahead Leo...you are in the government...make your proposal. Would be my answer to him.
SF have. FF and FG's turn to make a better one, if they are serious about wanting a UI.

It's all just guff to appease the electorate, they couldn't care less the only thing they care about is keeping their positions of power.

VinLieger

guy2231 wrote: »

You are partitionist because we can easily tell your true beliefs.

Mind reader now are you?

guy2231 wrote: »

You are spouting the usual guff from in the closet partitionists, "I don't want a United Ireland but you never know in 50 years I might.

Show me where ive said anything close that

guy2231 wrote: »

Partitionists like yourself know that being a partitionist is unpopular so you, just like the partitionists of the last 100 years are constantly advocating against a United Ireland using the usual lines like "maybe in 50 years" to somehow justify your beliefs.

LOL sure.... theres a fierce amount of projection reeking off your posts

FrancieBrady

guy2231 wrote: »

It's all just guff to appease the electorate, they couldn't care less the only thing they care about is keeping their positions of power.

It is, until they put their money (and political criticism) were their mouth is. Come up with a proposal if you think other's proposals are not good enough. I have no issue with that.

guy2231

blanch152 wrote: »

IF only it was so simple. That is the problem with the exclusionary nationalists and the extreme unionists, they only see things in black and white. Sometimes they have more in common than they realise.

I have never even heard of any "exclusionary nationalists in Ireland" can you please elaborate to who these people are?

ineedeuro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So go ahead Leo...you are in the government...make your proposal. Would be my answer to him.
SF have. FF and FG's turn to make a better one, if they are serious about wanting a UI.

Nobody is serious about a United Ireland, not even Sinn Fein. It is just bluster to keep the fan happy.
If someone turned around tomorrow and told Sinn fein a United Ireland was about to happen they would run a mile because they haven't a clue where to start.

None of the parties do.

FrancieBrady

ineedeuro wrote: »

Nobody is serious about a United Ireland, not even Sinn Fein. It is just bluster to keep the fan happy.
If someone turned around tomorrow and told Sinn fein a United Ireland was about to happen they would run a mile because they haven't a clue where to start.

None of the parties do.

So you think he is spoofing. I'm prepared to give him time and the benefit of the doubt.

ineedeuro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you think he is spoofing. I'm prepared to give him time and the benefit of the doubt.

They are all spoofing. Ask Sinn Fein a simple question and then clam up as well. What the Nordie one who was on Late Late recently? didn't even know what flag would be used. Basic stuff.
Imagine if Tubs was actually a decent host and had some proper questions to ask, it would have been a disaster.
Replace her with any other politician and ask the same question and you will have the same bumbling answers. They haven't a breeze. Neither do any of the so called "republican's" by the way. Throwing insults at people is about all I can see them do.

FrancieBrady

ineedeuro wrote: »

They are all spoofing. Ask Sinn Fein a simple question and then clam up as well. What the Nordie one who was on Late Late recently? didn't even know what flag would be used. Basic stuff.
Imagine if Tubs was actually a decent host and had some proper questions to ask, it would have been a disaster.
Replace her with any other politician and ask the same question and you will have the same bumbling answers. They haven't a breeze. Neither do any of the so called "republican's" by the way. Throwing insults at people is about all I can see them do.

SF have produced detailed views and reports on the matter. You may no agree with them, but you cannot say they haven't a breeze.

Let FG now come up with their proposal.


*I didn't see the interview but I think SF's view on the flag is that it needs to be discussed and other views need to be heard before a decision is made on it.

ineedeuro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SF have produced detailed views and reports on the matter. You may no agree with them, but you cannot say they haven't a breeze.

Let FG now come up with their proposal.


*I didn't see the interview but I think SF's view on the flag is that it needs to be discussed and other views need to be heard before a decision is made on it.

Sinn Fein have provided diddly squat from what I seen.
The one document I seen they could have produced down the pub on a Friday night. Unless I missed one? if you could provide?

I couldn't care which party comes up with a proposal, it probably shouldn't be a party but an official body or 3rd party. It should cover everything and should also be created in conjunction with the UK government/Irish Government and NI Assembly.

FrancieBrady

ineedeuro wrote: »

Sinn Fein have provided diddly squat from what I seen.
The one document I seen they could have produced down the pub on a Friday night. Unless I missed one? if you could provide?

QED, you don't agree with it. That's your right. You have one vote like me.
Let's see FG's one now, Leo did say the same as yourself re SF. If he can see fault, then let's see how he proposes to do better.

Personally I believe a proposal will come from an amalgam of all the ideas of the political parties and bodies supporting a UI.

I couldn't care which party comes up with a proposal, it probably shouldn't be a party but an official body or 3rd party. It should cover everything and should also be created in conjunction with the UK government/Irish Government and NI Assembly.

Come a border poll, the government of Ireland will be making the referendum proposal to the Irish people.
I presume this will take the form of a White Paper as was the case in the Scottish Referendum.
The British have committed to remain neutral as a government so won't be taking a side, pre the vote.
The implementation of a UI should a vote be successful will be a joint effort though. They have committed to 'bring into effect the wishes of the people'

ineedeuro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

QED, you don't agree with it. That's your right. You have one vote like me.
Let's see FG's one now, Leo did say the same as yourself re SF. If he can see fault, then let's see how he proposes to do better.

Personally I believe a proposal will come from an amalgam of all the ideas of the political parties and bodies supporting a UI.




Come a border poll, the government of Ireland will be making the referendum proposal to the Irish people.
I presume this will take the form of a White Paper as was the case in the Scottish Referendum.
The British have committed to remain neutral as a government so won't be taking a side, pre the vote.
The implementation of a UI should a vote be successful will be a joint effort though. They have committed to 'bring into effect the wishes of the people'

At least we agree none of the parties have a breeze

Shebean

So Varadkar is a Nationalist now? I must say it's refreshing to have a government party leader speak about the island of Ireland and expecting it to be unified in his life time.
The cynic in me feels it's a move by FG to get a foot in the door and try take over the narrative for a UI, which is fine by me if the result is a UI. Be interesting to see what moves FF make. O'Cuiv got his hand slapped for trying to get something started in that regard a few years back.
Be some Machiavellian move if FG took the wind out of SF's sails regarding being a UI party. I think it was a premature move on Varadkar's part but welcome. When it comes to parties actively and openly supporting a move to a United Ireland, the more the merrier.

FrancieBrady

ineedeuro wrote: »

At least we agree none of the parties have a breeze

So desperate you put words in people's mouths.

Did you notice where I said I was prepared to give FG the benefit of the doubt and look forward to their proposal or where I said that a proposal for a UI will probaly (and ideally IMO) be an amalgam of all views?
Everybody has a view, goos bad or indifferent.
Are you so blind not to realise what you are doing...because I do.

ittakestwo

Hamsterchops wrote: »

What's this business about telling (not asking) the people of Northern Ireland what Nationality they are?

Interesting phenomon in recent years, like a massive tussle for hearts & minds, You are Irish, no we're not, oh yes you are, oh no .......

OK then, we're Northern Irish, oh no you're not, you're all Irish, but I have a British passport, doesn't matter, you're Irish and that's that

Like why are we telling them what they are?

It is funny how unionists are very homophobic/transphobic. You would think they would have a lot empathy with people who identify in some would say they're factually not. Despite being from Ireland I am not Irish, but British should have empathy with a person who says despite being male I am a woman.

FrancieBrady

Can you believe it that the DUP..(Foster and Gavin Robinson etc who never signed up to the GFA) are calling out Varadkar for breaking it because he expressed our constitutional aim to a UI and a legitimate right in the GFA.

Unbelievable.

droidman123

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you believe it that the DUP..(Foster and Gavin Robinson etc who never signed up to the GFA) are calling out Varadkar for breaking it because he expressed our constitutional aim to a UI and a legitimate right in the GFA.

Unbelievable.

The dup are at the clutching at straws stage

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SF have produced detailed views and reports on the matter. You may no agree with them, but you cannot say they haven't a breeze.

Let FG now come up with their proposal.


*I didn't see the interview but I think SF's view on the flag is that it needs to be discussed and other views need to be heard before a decision is made on it.

Have Sinn Fein produced detailed views and reports on the matter?

I do recall that they trumpeted a heap of thoroughly debunked sh!te from a so-called independent think-tank that they initially denied was funded from Friends of Sinn Fein. Is that the report you mean?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Have Sinn Fein produced detailed views and reports on the matter?

I do recall that they trumpeted a heap of thoroughly debunked sh!te from a so-called independent think-tank that they initially denied was funded from Friends of Sinn Fein. Is that the report you mean?

I am referring to many comments and opinions and reports from them.

They are a political party attempting to persuade...you can believe what they say or debunk it.

FF's Unity Unit are working towards finding a consensus and I presume a plan proposal if a Border Poll is called.

FG's turn now, let's see their proposal or as others here have said, Varadkar is spoofing...dare I say...again.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am referring to many comments and opinions and reports from them.

They are a political party attempting to persuade...you can believe what they say or debunk it.

FF's Unity Unit are working towards finding a consensus and I presume a plan proposal if a Border Poll is called.

FG's turn now, let's see their proposal or as others here have said, Varadkar is spoofing...dare I say...again.

They mustn't have had much effect, because most of us seem to have missed this invaluable reading. Unless, of course, it was flushed away.

Hamsterchops

ittakestwo wrote: »

It is funny how unionists are very homophobic/transphobic. You would think they would have a lot empathy with people who identify in some would say they're factually not. Despite being from Ireland I am not Irish, but British should have empathy with a person who says despite being male I am a woman.

No sure what you're getting at there, are you suggesting Arlene Foster is an Irish man?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

They mustn't have had much effect, because most of us seem to have missed this invaluable reading. Unless, of course, it was flushed away.

Maybe Leo realised the game is up on the subvention scary 10/12/13 billions blanch? Decided to do a volte face as he did on SSM?

That's what I reckon has happened, he knows the tide is turning and being a master of jumping on band wagons, he is now on board.

hometruths

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Maybe Leo realised the game is up on the subvention scary 10/12/13 billions blanch? Decided to do a volte face as he did on SSM?

That's what I reckon has happened, he knows the tide is turning and being a master of jumping on band wagons, he is now on board.

Worryingly, it would not surprise me if he thiks SFs recent surge in polls is down to their support for a UI, thus he's decided its a good time to get on board to counter the electoral threat.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am referring to many comments and opinions and reports from them.

They are a political party attempting to persuade...you can believe what they say or debunk it.

FF's Unity Unit are working towards finding a consensus and I presume a plan proposal if a Border Poll is called.

FG's turn now, let's see their proposal or as others here have said, Varadkar is spoofing...dare I say...again.

None of the parties have put forward a proposal really. Richmond's and O Callaghan's papers had no substance to them at all. SF haven't put anything out as far as I know. The Hubner paper isn't a proposal really just a prediction of benefits assuming the Republic bears all costs without any detail on how we fund it.

Not surprised with either FF/FG as it's not a priority for them but SF really should be doing more.

Tactically I think it's a bad move by SF to be shying away from discussing the cost. The figures will be scary, surely it's better to shock people now and give them time to get used to it then leaving it closer to the poll?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

None of the parties have put forward a proposal really. Richmond's and O Callaghan's papers had no substance to them at all. SF haven't put anything out as far as I know. The Hubner paper isn't a proposal really just a prediction of benefits assuming the Republic bears all costs without any detail on how we fund it.

Not surprised with either FF/FG as it's not a priority for them but SF really should be doing more.

Tactically I think it's a bad move by SF to be shying away from discussing the cost. The figures will be scary, surely it's better to shock people now and give them time to get used to it then leaving it closer to the poll?

FFs JH79 - I never said they produced a proposal Read what is being said please.

Far as I can see, SF want to have discussions on a UI before any 'proposal' is made.
They have made many comments on what they would like to see, what needs to be resolved, what compromises might need to be made and have commissioned reports on it.

ineedeuro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am referring to many comments and opinions and reports from them.

They are a political party attempting to persuade...you can believe what they say or debunk it.

FF's Unity Unit are working towards finding a consensus and I presume a plan proposal if a Border Poll is called.

FG's turn now, let's see their proposal or as others here have said, Varadkar is spoofing...dare I say...again.

So they have provided diddly squat. Thanks for confirming.

All parties are spoofing as I said already.

FrancieBrady

ineedeuro wrote: »

So they have provided diddly squat. Thanks for confirming.

All parties are spoofing as I said already.

For years on here the scare mongers were spouting about the scary billions of the subvention. SF said for years it was not the headline figure of 10/12/13 billions touted here and elsewhere. Trinity professor confirms it is much much lower, the scaremongers switch to the scary running costs.

So not spoofing on that and provided the figures years ago to anyone who cared to listen.

Loads of other stuff too. But I am not trying to convince you- you have to make your own mind up. Don't worry, there will be others along soon to convince you if Leo isn't spoofing. I'm looking forward to it.