United Ireland Poll - please vote

FrancieBrady

ineedeuro wrote: »

No
I do agree that’s all some political parties do, wait for someone to come up with an idea and then tell everyone how terrible it is
But they should be bringing their own proposals, idea etc. Independent TD as well....

Struggling to think of a party who don't bring forward ideas/alternatives and their own bills and legislation. Help me out, who are you talking about?

FileNotFound

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Struggling to think of a party who don't bring forward ideas/alternatives and their own bills and legislation. Help me out, who are you talking about?

In fairness, I imagine ineedeuro is probably meaning that few bring anything meaningful beyond a sound bite...


Like SF last budget where every item was individually costed (rather than the whole budget together), and they did it knowing full well that its was not doable.


An opposition that offer nothing more than hollow conjecture really adds little.


Take the posh prat mouthpiece for PBP - he now wants mandatory quarantine fro everyone despite knowing we don't have capacity. He even tries to pretend he isn't a posh prat.

FrancieBrady

FileNotFound wrote: »

In fairness, I imagine ineedeuro is probably meaning that few bring anything meaningful beyond a sound bite...


Like SF last budget where every item was individually costed (rather than the whole budget together), and they did it knowing full well that its was not doable.


An opposition that offer nothing more than hollow conjecture really adds little.


Take the posh prat mouthpiece for PBP - he now wants mandatory quarantine fro everyone despite knowing we don't have capacity. He even tries to pretend he isn't a posh prat.

There's a difference between not bringing their own ideas and legislation forward and you or ineedeuro not liking or disagreeing with what they bring forward.

Need I say more? :rolleyes:

FileNotFound

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There's a difference between not bringing their own ideas and legislation forward and you or ineedeuro not liking or disagreeing with what they bring forward.

Need I say more? :rolleyes:

Yes actually, more would be great, So from what you say, I take that you accept any nonsense alternative argument as valid opposition???


So that means you also accept the UK Gov have a valid position on the NI protocol right now?


Personally non workable alternatives hold no ground with me, but each to their own I suppose.

FrancieBrady

FileNotFound wrote: »

Yes actually, more would be great, So from what you say, I take that you accept any nonsense alternative argument as valid opposition???


So that means you also accept the UK Gov have a valid position on the NI protocol right now?


Personally non workable alternatives hold no ground with me, but each to their own I suppose.

The UK government have a position and no doubt a plan

The equivalent to what ineedeuro claimed is that they have nothing.

Your opinion of the value of what they offer is your right as is my opinion of the UK government. .

Stating they don't offer an alternative or bring forward legislation (which is a different thing altogether) is factually wrong.

ineedeuro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There's a difference between not bringing their own ideas and legislation forward and you or ineedeuro not liking or disagreeing with what they bring forward.

Need I say more? :rolleyes:

Someone asked a question, I answered the question and even quoted the original question in my post. It is baffling you have got confused over a simple exchange on boards.

FrancieBrady

ineedeuro wrote: »

Someone asked a question, I answered the question and even quoted the original question in my post. It is baffling you have got confused over a simple exchange on boards.

So answer the question I asked...who are the 'some political parties' you were referring to?

FileNotFound

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The UK government have a position and no doubt a plan

The equivalent to what ineedeuro claimed is that they have nothing.

Your opinion of the value of what they offer is your right as is my opinion of the UK government. .

Stating they don't offer an alternative or bring forward legislation (which is a different thing altogether) is factually wrong.

Grand so we agree they offer an alternative, I just don't follow people who provide non workable alternatives.

Each to their own I suppose. If you cannot show how an alternative could work then I don't give it much stock.

FrancieBrady

FileNotFound wrote: »

Grand so we agree they offer an alternative, I just don't follow people who provide non workable alternatives.

Each to their own I suppose. If you cannot show how an alternative could work then I don't give it much stock.

Is that a feature of all opposition's that have ever been? Endemic to 'opposition' so to speak? Or just opposition's made up of parties you don't like?

FileNotFound

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is that a feature of all opposition's that have ever been? Endemic to 'opposition' so to speak? Or just opposition's made up of parties you don't like?

Probably more an opposition in general from what I have seen - here, uk so on and so forth.

Opposition (probably because they have to) play populist rather than practical politics.

If a party presented a real alternative plan that made sense - even if a bit far reaching - they would get my support.

I use SF as example only because they are the relevant opposition in our nation.

FrancieBrady

FileNotFound wrote: »

Probably more an opposition in general from what I have seen - here, uk so on and so forth.

Opposition (probably because they have to) play populist rather than practical politics.

If a party presented a real alternative plan that made sense - even if a bit far reaching - they would get my support.

I use SF as example only because they are the relevant opposition in our nation.

So no opposition has ever presented a credible alternative? And governments only do practical stuff?

Who knew.

FileNotFound

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So no opposition has ever presented a credible alternative? And governments only do practical stuff?

Who knew.

Reaching a bit there on the never ever I'd say Francie.
But as a generalization it has been mostly accurate in recent times. From what I have seen.


The Governments actually do stuff, is it the best stuff? Well if we had a credible opposition they might present a factual case on whether it is or not.

Sadly opposition often have pie in the sky dreams that actually allow the Gov to carry on without the opposition getting any meaningful improvement to anything really. But it makes a great headline... Sure isn't that what matters.

FrancieBrady

FileNotFound wrote: »

Reaching a bit there on the never ever I'd say Francie.
But as a generalization it has been mostly accurate in recent times. From what I have seen.


The Governments actually do stuff, is it the best stuff? Well if we had a credible opposition they might present a factual case on whether it is or not.

Sadly opposition often have pie in the sky dreams that actually allow the Gov to carry on without the opposition getting any meaningful improvement to anything really. But it makes a great headline... Sure isn't that what matters.

Feck me...'The government actually do stuff'????

The government are supposed to 'do stuff', the opposition can't. Their duty is to criticise, suggest other ways, present their own legislation and to call and hold to account.

I have never seen an opposition, be it FF, FG, SF Lab etc etc who has not done that.

FileNotFound

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Feck me...'The government actually do stuff'????

The government are supposed to 'do stuff', the opposition can't. Their duty is to criticise, suggest other ways, present their own legislation and to call and hold to account.

I have never seen an opposition, be it FF, FG, SF Lab etc etc who has not done that.

Indeed I expect any opposition wallowing on high wages funded by my taxes to do a credible job of providing an alternative view on anything.

Sadly it seems this money is very poorly spent.

Presenting an impossible does no good for me or anyone. But if its enough for you, well good for you.

FrancieBrady

FileNotFound wrote: »

Indeed I expect any opposition wallowing on high wages funded by my taxes to do a credible job of providing an alternative view on anything.

Sadly it seems this money is very poorly spent.

Presenting an impossible does no good for me or anyone. But if its enough for you, well good for you.

Oppositions are as fallible and as good as governments themselves are.

But both, to any democrat, are essential.

FileNotFound

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Oppositions are as fallible and as good as governments themselves are.

But both, to any democrat, are essential.

But what if an opposition repeatedly provides non workable alternatives for nothing more than browny points. Do they then fail in their duty as the opposition?

Or is opposition to everything and little more what you expect?

FrancieBrady

FileNotFound wrote: »

But what if an opposition repeatedly provides non workable alternatives for nothing more than browny points. Do they then fail in their duty as the opposition?

Or is opposition to everything and little more what you expect?

'But what if an opposition repeatedly provides non workable alternatives'...for you.

End of conversation as that is just your opinion. Which you are entitled to. But I am not particularly interested in debating.

Oppositions come in all shapes and sizes, are sometime right, sometimes wrong and sometimes serious and sometimes populist.

My view is that they are vital to a functioning democracy.

FileNotFound

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'But what if an opposition repeatedly provides non workable alternatives'...for you.

End of conversation as that is just your opinion. Which you are entitled to. But I am not particularly interested in debating.

Oppositions come in all shapes and sizes, are sometime right, sometimes wrong and sometimes serious and sometimes populist.

My view is that they are vital to a functioning democracy.

Well it was a question to you actually. But if you have no interest in discussing the merits of an opposition that provide alternatives versus those that don't bother I guess we might as well end it there.

Opposition is absolutely vital, as is the Gov. Saying something is vital is not the same as saying its effective or living up to what those who pay there wages would want.

Pleasure as always Francie

FrancieBrady

FileNotFound wrote: »

Well it was a question to you actually. But if you have no interest in discussing the merits of an opposition that provide alternatives versus those that don't bother I guess we might as well end it there.

Opposition is absolutely vital, as is the Gov. Saying something is vital is not the same as saying its effective or living up to what those who pay there wages would want.

Pleasure as always Francie

Not sure if there is a question in there that is answerable.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not sure if there is a question in there that is answerable.

Actually, there is, but it is not one that is answerable from a Sinn Fein perspective, without introspective self-criticism.

Shebean

So if your party is in power is it not natural to think poorly of the opposition?
Is it news to people that all parties make proposals they can't fully keep? We know this by the government parties who don't follow through on campaign promises.

The like of the DUP offer keeping themselves on top and keeping equality out of reach if it doesn't suit them. When a UI is overwhelmingly voted for they'll no doubt not respect it.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Actually, there is, but it is not one that is answerable from a Sinn Fein perspective, without introspective self-criticism.

If it's about SF in opposition the poster should frame the questiion that way.

I think SF have done a very good job in opposition.
Not the only metric...but emerging as the party with the highest vote in a GE kinda suggests that.

BluePlanet

FileNotFound wrote: »

But what if an opposition repeatedly provides non workable alternatives for nothing more than browny points. Do they then fail in their duty as the opposition?

Or is opposition to everything and little more what you expect?

What's the problem? They are in opposition so cannot put their policies in place.
Shouldn't you be rejoicing that they are providing non workable alternatives?

Seems like you want the opposition to offer alternatives that you agree with.
Maybe you need to vote for a different opposition then.

FrancieBrady

BluePlanet wrote: »

What's the problem? They are in opposition so cannot put their policies in place.
Shouldn't you be rejoicing that they are providing non workable alternatives?

Seems like you want the opposition to offer alternatives that you agree with.
Maybe you need to vote for a different opposition then.

The problem with aficionados of the power swap is that they don't want any opposition at all.
If FG were the opposition to a SF government, I would expect them to oppose and hold them to account.

hometruths

Northern Irish media reporting that DUP want an agreement they have already negotiated torn up.

The DUP will force an Assembly election in the autumn unless there is significant change in the plans to bring in Irish language laws.

Senior sources within the party told Sunday Life last night that the new leader, who looks set to be Sir Jeffrey Donaldson, won’t nominate a first minister unless a new deal is reached.

This sort of thing is exactly why I would vote against a UI if it involves all kinds of appeasement to unionism like new flag, new anthem etc.

Utterly pointless agreeing anything with them.

FrancieBrady

Finally we are hearing Unionism endorsing democracy and taking on board what the GFA stands for and means.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/if-it-was-the-democratic-will-of-the-people-that-there-has-to-be-a-united-ireland-then-i-have-to-accept-that-because-im-a-democrat-40558897.html

FrancieBrady

Varadkar slamming those for whom 'the time is never right to discuss a UI'.

I suspect they are getting messages from Westminster that a border poll is where we are headed with the Protocol and Britain wanting to get on with Brexit.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Varadkar slamming those for whom 'the time is never right to discuss a UI'.

I suspect they are getting messages from Westminster that a border poll is where we are headed with the Protocol and Britain wanting to get on with Brexit.

Only way it would solve the issue is if the choice is between a UI and a hard border.

Hamsterchops

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that if a border poll was held right now it would result in something like 63% of the NI population voting in favour of retaining the union (with Britain) staying within the UK.

I'm open to correction.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Finally we are hearing Unionism endorsing democracy and taking on board what the GFA stands for and means.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/if-it-was-the-democratic-will-of-the-people-that-there-has-to-be-a-united-ireland-then-i-have-to-accept-that-because-im-a-democrat-40558897.html

I don't know a single unionist who did not know that this was always the case - long before gfa. If a majority of NI want to unite with North Korea then it would be allowed by UK. I don't know any country in the western world that does not have the right to self determination - It took the GFA to get republicans to this point - slow learners.