United Ireland Poll - please vote

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Only way it would solve the issue is if the choice is between a UI and a hard border.

Or if Britain wants rid of the 'complication'.

Would be an interesting place to be in the back channels at the minute.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I don't know a single unionist who did not know that this was always the case - long before gfa. If a majority of NI want to unite with North Korea then it would be allowed by UK. I don't know any country in the western world that does not have the right to self determination - It took the GFA to get republicans to this point - slow learners.

You'll be able to show another Unionist leader saying it so...or more to the point, feeling the need to say to portray himself as different from what went before.
What I welcome about it is there is no ambiguity, no 'I could not guarantee being peaceful' vagueness.

Whatcar212

downcow wrote: »

I don't know any country in the western world that does not have the right to self determination.

Catalonia would like a word

blanch152

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that if a border poll was held right now it would result in something like 63% of the NI population voting in favour of retaining the union (with Britain) staying within the UK.

I'm open to correction.

Pretty much that is what the opinion polls show, hence there is no reason for the SoS to call a border poll.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that if a border poll was held right now it would result in something like 63% of the NI population voting in favour of retaining the union (with Britain) staying within the UK.

I'm open to correction.

Polls only show an opinion in the absence of any proposal/plan for a UI from the Irish government.

That is pivotal.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Polls only show an opinion in the absence of any proposal/plan for a UI from the Irish government.

That is pivotal.

Don't see the advantage for Britian in calling a border poll in the near future. Something that would be a slow process with no guarantee of sucess.

Getting the NI protocol to work is still the easiest option.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Don't see the advantage for Britian in calling a border poll in the near future. Something that would be a slow process with no guarantee of sucess.

Getting the NI protocol to work is still the easiest option.

I disagree on the basis of the British always doing what is in it's own selfish interest.
And getting rid of the complication of NI is most definitely in it's selfish interest now.
The Protocol and the Irish Sea border will continue to complicate and thwart their selfish Brexit interests. There is no 'final solution', so to speak.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I disagree on the basis of the British always doing what is in it's own selfish interest.
And getting rid of the complication of NI is most definitely in it's selfish interest now.
The Protocol and the Irish Sea border will continue to complicate and thwart their selfish Brexit interests. There is no 'final solution', so to speak.

A rejected UI doesn't solve anything for them though so without opinion polls showing a good chance of success I can't see why they would pursue it?

Only options are a UI, hard border or an agreement with the EU. The path of least resistance is an agreement with the EU.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

A rejected UI doesn't solve anything for them though so without opinion polls showing a good chance of success I can't see why they would pursue it?

Only options are a UI, hard border or an agreement with the EU. The path of least resistance is an agreement with the EU.

Which they don't look like they are interested in because it restricts their options going forward.

Partition has bitten them badly over Brexit. It has left the mighty Brexit, Britannia riding the waves goal in a mess and they cannot free themselves of the EU...their selfish goal. Unionism is being shafted as a result, again and again.

Brexit does not stop dead just because they solve the Protocol issue, further divergence from the EU puts strain there again.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which they don't look like they are interested in because it restricts their options going forward.

Partition has bitten them badly over Brexit. It has left the mighty Brexit, Britannia riding the waves goal in a mess and they cannot free themselves of the EU...their selfish goal. Unionism is being shafted as a result, again and again.

Brexit does not stop dead just because they solve the Protocol issue, further divergence from the EU puts strain there again.

None of that matters as the people of the North want to stay in the UK.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which they don't look like they are interested in because it restricts their options going forward.

Partition has bitten them badly over Brexit. It has left the mighty Brexit, Britannia riding the waves goal in a mess and they cannot free themselves of the EU...their selfish goal. Unionism is being shafted as a result, again and again.

Brexit does not stop dead just because they solve the Protocol issue, further divergence from the EU puts strain there again.

But there is no point as long as the people of NI want to remain in the UK and that seems to be the case. Next LucidTalk poll could change things.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

None of that matters as the people of the North want to stay in the UK.

People who have not yet been presented with a plan or a proposal from Dublin.

I believe there have always been back channels between Irish and British governments and that they (Dublin) have been told via one of those channels to start serious preparations for a Border Poll. Hence Varadkar clambering on to the UI band wagon recently.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

People who have not yet been presented with a plan or a proposal from Dublin.

I believe there have always been back channels between Irish and British governments and that they (Dublin) have been told via one of those channels to start serious preparations for a Border Poll. Hence Varadkar clambering on to the UI band wagon recently.

There are back channels in every diplomatic relationship, it isn't rocket science to know that.

However, the leap in logic to a claim that they have been told to start serious preparations for a Border Poll is another exercise in fantastical thinking that surrounds this whole issue.

As for Varadkar, people need to listen carefully to exactly what he said, not to be fooled by the reactions to it. It bears repeating because so many seem to be ignorant of it.

https://www.finegael.ie/speech-of-the-tanaiste-leo-varadkar-at-the-opening-of-the-2021-fine-gael-ard-fheis/


"The Assembly elections and the census tell us that in Northern Ireland there is no majority anymore. There are three minorities, one that defines itself as British and Unionist, another as Irish and Nationalist, and a third and growing middle ground, many born since the Good Friday Agreement, who refuse to be defined in this way. They see themselves as both Irish and British or perhaps simply Northern Irish.

What’s most revealing in opinion polls, even among the youngest voters, is that neither nationalist nor unionist parties have a majority due to this growing middle ground"

He mentions the third minority - the one you choose to ignore time and again.

"We know the crude vision espoused by Sinn Féin, it’s not an inclusive one – a cold form of republicanism, socialist, narrow nationalism, protectionist, anti-British, euro-critical, ourselves alone, 50% plus one and nobody else is needed. That is not a 21st century vision."

He rejects the Sinn Fein vision of republicanism, repeated ad nauseum on this thread by its adherents.

"Unification must not be the annexation of Northern Ireland. It means something more, a new state designed together, a new constitution and one that reflects the diversity of a bi-national or multi-national state in which almost a million people are British. Like the New South Africa, a rainbow nation, not just orange and green.

We have to be willing to consider all that we’d be willing to change – new titles, shared symbols, how devolution in the North would fit into the new arrangements, a new Senate to strengthen the representation of minorities, the role and status of our languages, a new and closer relationship with the United Kingdom."

He opens the door to rejoining the Commonwealth, as well as ditching the symbols of Ireland hated by the Unionist community.

"Until these questions are answered, until we have a clear proposition to put to the people on both parts of our island, then a border poll is premature."

Lastly, he kicks the idea of a border poll far into the future.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There are back channels in every diplomatic relationship, it isn't rocket science to know that.

However, the leap in logic to a claim that they have been told to start serious preparations for a Border Poll is another exercise in fantastical thinking that surrounds this whole issue.

As for Varadkar, people need to listen carefully to exactly what he said, not to be fooled by the reactions to it. It bears repeating because so many seem to be ignorant of it.

https://www.finegael.ie/speech-of-the-tanaiste-leo-varadkar-at-the-opening-of-the-2021-fine-gael-ard-fheis/


"The Assembly elections and the census tell us that in Northern Ireland there is no majority anymore. There are three minorities, one that defines itself as British and Unionist, another as Irish and Nationalist, and a third and growing middle ground, many born since the Good Friday Agreement, who refuse to be defined in this way. They see themselves as both Irish and British or perhaps simply Northern Irish.

What’s most revealing in opinion polls, even among the youngest voters, is that neither nationalist nor unionist parties have a majority due to this growing middle ground"

He mentions the third minority - the one you choose to ignore time and again.

"We know the crude vision espoused by Sinn Féin, it’s not an inclusive one – a cold form of republicanism, socialist, narrow nationalism, protectionist, anti-British, euro-critical, ourselves alone, 50% plus one and nobody else is needed. That is not a 21st century vision."

He rejects the Sinn Fein vision of republicanism, repeated ad nauseum on this thread by its adherents.

"Unification must not be the annexation of Northern Ireland. It means something more, a new state designed together, a new constitution and one that reflects the diversity of a bi-national or multi-national state in which almost a million people are British. Like the New South Africa, a rainbow nation, not just orange and green.

We have to be willing to consider all that we’d be willing to change – new titles, shared symbols, how devolution in the North would fit into the new arrangements, a new Senate to strengthen the representation of minorities, the role and status of our languages, a new and closer relationship with the United Kingdom."

He opens the door to rejoining the Commonwealth, as well as ditching the symbols of Ireland hated by the Unionist community.

"Until these questions are answered, until we have a clear proposition to put to the people on both parts of our island, then a border poll is premature."

Lastly, he kicks the idea of a border poll far into the future.

Those questions could all be answered in the space of a year. Fantasy to state otherwise.

*By the way, Mary Lou has long since addressed the possibility of rejoining the CW and ridding us of symbols and everything being on the table. Leo and yourself are just being party political trying to claim he is being original on those points.

hometruths

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Those questions could all be answered in the space of a year. Fantasy to state otherwise.

*By the way, Mary Lou has long since addressed the possibility of rejoining the CW and ridding us of symbols and everything being on the table. Leo and yourself are just being party political trying to claim he is being original on those points.

What are Mary Lou/SFs views on the commonwealth and dropping symbols?

FrancieBrady

schmittel wrote: »

What are Mary Lou/SFs views on the commonwealth and dropping symbols?

2018...way ahead of the bould Leo.

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-rejoining-the-commonwealth-4174082-Aug2018/

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Those questions could all be answered in the space of a year. Fantasy to state otherwise.

*By the way, Mary Lou has long since addressed the possibility of rejoining the CW and ridding us of symbols and everything being on the table. Leo and yourself are just being party political trying to claim he is being original on those points.

Well, you've been asked those questions for the last half-decade and haven't had the semblance of a response.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

2018...way ahead of the bould Leo.

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-rejoining-the-commonwealth-4174082-Aug2018/

"It is not a proposition that I would be advancing – but I am me"

She is against it, glad we are clear on that. Shows how true Leo was when he talked about "the crude vision espoused by Sinn Féin, it’s not an inclusive one – a cold form of republicanism, socialist, narrow nationalism, protectionist, anti-British, euro-critical, ourselves alone, 50% plus one and nobody else is needed."

hometruths

blanch152 wrote: »

"It is not a proposition that I would be advancing – but I am me"

She is against it, glad we are clear on that. Shows how true Leo was when he talked about "the crude vision espoused by Sinn Féin, it’s not an inclusive one – a cold form of republicanism, socialist, narrow nationalism, protectionist, anti-British, euro-critical, ourselves alone, 50% plus one and nobody else is needed."

I am glad she is against it. Hopefully she is against abandoning our national and cultural symbolism too.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

"It is not a proposition that I would be advancing – but I am me"

She is against it, glad we are clear on that. Shows how true Leo was when he talked about "the crude vision espoused by Sinn Féin, it’s not an inclusive one – a cold form of republicanism, socialist, narrow nationalism, protectionist, anti-British, euro-critical, ourselves alone, 50% plus one and nobody else is needed."

So, are you 'for' rejoining the Commonwealth? Is Leo?

What Mary Lou was being, was honest about her own position but open to accepting the opinion of others and open to doing things she would personally be against.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So, are you 'for' rejoining the Commonwealth? Is Leo?

What Mary Lou was being, was honest about her own position but open to accepting the opinion of others and open to doing things she would personally be against.

You know my opinion on these issues, I have made it clear.

I don't speak for Leo.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You know my opinion on these issues, I have made it clear.

I don't speak for Leo.

I don't...are you 'for' rejoining the Commonwealth?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't...are you 'for' rejoining the Commonwealth?

Why would I have an opinion on a united Ireland joining the Commonwealth when I don't believe a united Ireland is a realistic prospect during my lifetime?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Why would I have an opinion on a united Ireland joining the Commonwealth when I don't believe a united Ireland is a realistic prospect during my lifetime?

Pretty clear we won't get a straight answer. I'll leave that one there.

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

"It is not a proposition that I would be advancing – but I am me"

She is against it, glad we are clear on that. Shows how true Leo was when he talked about "the crude vision espoused by Sinn Féin, it’s not an inclusive one – a cold form of republicanism, socialist, narrow nationalism, protectionist, anti-British, euro-critical, ourselves alone, 50% plus one and nobody else is needed."

your post come across a tad narrowminded - did you read the article at all?

McDonald said she cannot call for an openness, and then censor voices before the debate has begun.

“You can hardly make that call and then say ‘we are not going to discuss any particular item’. And there are some people who think that rejoining the Commonwealth is a worthy proposition.

“I think those that hold that view need to put that view forward, and I think it needs to be looked at, and debated, and it needs to be discussed.

... unless of course she isnt allowed to have her own opinion

FileNotFound

Never really payed heed to what the commonwealth actually means beyond the sporting games.

FrancieBrady

FileNotFound wrote: »

Never really payed heed to what the commonwealth actually means beyond the sporting games.

Wait'll you get a load of the Orange Order.

FileNotFound

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wait'll you get a load of the Orange Order.

Fairly familiar with the orange donkeys, their history and their marching.


But seriously beyond getting to enter a games what does being in the commonwealth mean for a nation?

Any info would be great Francie.

FrancieBrady

FileNotFound wrote: »

Fairly familiar with the orange donkeys, their history and their marching.


But seriously beyond getting to enter a games what does being in the commonwealth mean for a nation?

Any info would be great Francie.

Plenty of opinion online, personally I find the Indian relationship with the CW to be particularly illuminating as to how former colonies find it advantageous, up to a point, to retain membership.
The jostling/some say insistence of the current head - the British monarch, that her son replace her also offers illumination as to how the British view it as an influence/control mechanism of those former colonies.

It is a declining influence IMO and may be contrary to our membership of the EU, there was talk from Boris etc during Brexit to develop it as a trade bloc. Although that seems to have been shelved like tunnels and Royal yachts etc.

ArthurDayne

blanch152 wrote: »

There are back channels in every diplomatic relationship, it isn't rocket science to know that.

However, the leap in logic to a claim that they have been told to start serious preparations for a Border Poll is another exercise in fantastical thinking that surrounds this whole issue.

As for Varadkar, people need to listen carefully to exactly what he said, not to be fooled by the reactions to it. It bears repeating because so many seem to be ignorant of it.

https://www.finegael.ie/speech-of-the-tanaiste-leo-varadkar-at-the-opening-of-the-2021-fine-gael-ard-fheis/


"The Assembly elections and the census tell us that in Northern Ireland there is no majority anymore. There are three minorities, one that defines itself as British and Unionist, another as Irish and Nationalist, and a third and growing middle ground, many born since the Good Friday Agreement, who refuse to be defined in this way. They see themselves as both Irish and British or perhaps simply Northern Irish.

What’s most revealing in opinion polls, even among the youngest voters, is that neither nationalist nor unionist parties have a majority due to this growing middle ground"

He mentions the third minority - the one you choose to ignore time and again.

"We know the crude vision espoused by Sinn Féin, it’s not an inclusive one – a cold form of republicanism, socialist, narrow nationalism, protectionist, anti-British, euro-critical, ourselves alone, 50% plus one and nobody else is needed. That is not a 21st century vision."

He rejects the Sinn Fein vision of republicanism, repeated ad nauseum on this thread by its adherents.

"Unification must not be the annexation of Northern Ireland. It means something more, a new state designed together, a new constitution and one that reflects the diversity of a bi-national or multi-national state in which almost a million people are British. Like the New South Africa, a rainbow nation, not just orange and green.

We have to be willing to consider all that we’d be willing to change – new titles, shared symbols, how devolution in the North would fit into the new arrangements, a new Senate to strengthen the representation of minorities, the role and status of our languages, a new and closer relationship with the United Kingdom."

He opens the door to rejoining the Commonwealth, as well as ditching the symbols of Ireland hated by the Unionist community.

"Until these questions are answered, until we have a clear proposition to put to the people on both parts of our island, then a border poll is premature."

Lastly, he kicks the idea of a border poll far into the future.

Worth bearing in mind though, even if I do think Varadkar’s vision for the unification of Ireland is a more holistic one (words being just words of course), Fine Gael do seem to be trying to ramp up their Republican credentials in the recent past. They may well reject what they perceive to be Sinn Féin’s narrow interpretation of the pathway to a United Ireland — but it does seem to me that they are being influenced by it somewhat, not least perhaps that it does seem to be working for SF of late.

Overall, there will be some satisfaction for Sinn Féin and Republicans generally that — even if the means would differ — the end goal has become an increasingly normalised topic of public statement for the Fine Gael party and thus, the “liberal South Dublinised cosmopolitan elite”. The question is whether Leo’s modernised oat milk cappuccino Republicanism will be enough to entice the youth back from the unapologetically traditional anti-partitionism of Sinn Féin.