United Ireland Poll - please vote

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Here's a thought, British institutions!

If there was to be a "United" Ireland would we allow certain British institutions to come in here along with the Unionist people?

The NHS for example, could we come to some agreement with Westminster whereby the NHS is extended down to the South with us contributing as part of a new Ireland?

Same for the BBC, would we allow the BBC to remain on this island if the Unionist people wanted to keep it, and if the BBC allowed. RTE & BBC available island wide in your car (terrestrial).

Then there's that old chestnut about Ireland (the whole island of) being part of the Commonwealth of countries, this would also make it easier for Unionism to swallow the pill, but would we agree to it?

All of the above in the context of the island becoming one entity, one country, one nation, while inviting Ulster Unionism into the ROI fold.

Personally, I'd love to be able to receive the BBC on my car radio, I'd also love us to have the NHS as our health service, so if we ever convince the North to leave the UK, can those institutions be part of an agreement?

Brings this whole island closer (but separate) to the Great Britain I guess, which still might be a problem for some?

There is a clause in the GFA that is relevant here:
It is for the people of the island of Ireland to decide their fate.

EVERYTHING is there for discussion HC..everything. If it makes sense, is not appeasement for the sake of it and the majority agree, then why not?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is a clause in the GFA that is relevant here:
It is for the people of the island of Ireland to decide their fate.

EVERYTHING is there for discussion HC..everything. If it makes sense, is not appeasement for the sake of it and the majority agree, then why not?

I think the UK will have something to say about these issues. Won’t be just down to the people of the island

Dr Turk Turkelton

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058174655/1/#post116778351

If this thread was a John Grisham novel this would be the scene in the courtroom where a Tom Cruise like character would slam down his stack of papers with a smug grin and say "your honour, the defence rests it's case" and sit down in a winning manner.
We can never have a United Ireland with these savages sharing the island with us.

Junkyard Tom

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

We can never have a United Ireland with these savages sharing the island with us.

Au contraire Rodney, that is what partition of our country has caused and is as good a reason as any to bring the whole thing to its natural conclusion.

When the majority in the north vote in favour of a UI it's not a matter of 'if' rather how we do it.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When the UK left the EU, they had no negotiating position when it came to their debt to the EU. The EU had the power to say pay or PFO.

The same does not apply in the event of a UI vote by a majority, the UK are not in a position, by dint of what they have agreed to already, to make it a take it or leave it stance.
They have committed to 'making a UI happen'.

So 'debt' will be negotiated to sustainable levels, unless our negotiators are weak, would be my guess.

That is nonsense.

The UK stance will be you voted for this, take the consequences. The UK has already learned how to do that from the way that the EU have treated them. Having suffered it from the EU, the UK will be in a hurry to do the same to Northern Ireland in the unlikely event it ever leaves.

We would have to take our share, anything else is just unicorns and rainbows. Germany took on all the debt of East Germany. Slovakia and the Czech Republic divided debt based on population. Pretending that a milk and honey united Ireland would be different does no service to anyone.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

That is nonsense.

The UK stance will be you voted for this, take the consequences. The UK has already learned how to do that from the way that the EU have treated them. Having suffered it from the EU, the UK will be in a hurry to do the same to Northern Ireland in the unlikely event it ever leaves.

We would have to take our share, anything else is just unicorns and rainbows. Germany took on all the debt of East Germany. Slovakia and the Czech Republic divided debt based on population. Pretending that a milk and honey united Ireland would be different does no service to anyone.

There were those who loudly trumpeted that we would do what the UK told us to do over Brexit.

It's not Britiania Rules the Waves days anymore blanch.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There were those who loudly trumpeted that we would do what the UK told us to do over Brexit.

It's not Britiania Rules the Waves days anymore blanch.

The lesson from Brexit is that those deciding to leave hold none of the cards.

The UK will apply that to Northern Ireland and to Scotland if necessary.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The lesson from Brexit is that those deciding to leave hold none of the cards.

The UK will apply that to Northern Ireland and to Scotland if necessary.

Oh not another round of you predicting what is going to happen.

The future will be negotiated blanch, by equals. And by two sovereign countries that will want it to work.

igCorcaigh

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There were those who loudly trumpeted that we would do what the UK told us to do over Brexit.

It's not Britiania Rules the Waves days anymore blanch.

It has long been the time that Britannia Rules the Waves was at the heart of the question of Northern Ireland.

The question will not be solved by competing Nationalisms.
The valuable space provided by the GFA has not been used well on either side of this island.

igCorcaigh

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Oh not another round of you predicting what is going to happen.

The future will be negotiated blanch, by equals. And by two sovereign countries that will want it to work.

And there will still be a sectarian headcount.
That's the thing.

The Unionists will have to be accorded.
But then, by definition, they hold a veto?

I hope it doesn't come down to that Francie.
Valuable times to repair relations have been wasted.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Oh not another round of you predicting what is going to happen.

The future will be negotiated blanch, by equals. And by two sovereign countries that will want it to work.

Just like the Czech Republic and Slovakia where they divided the debt based on population. Ditto every other similar situation.

The notion that we Irish are different and that everyone loves us so it will be grand is just the ultimate in silliness.

blanch152

igCorcaigh wrote: »

It has long been the time that Britannia Rules the Waves was at the heart of the question of Northern Ireland.

The question will not be solved by competing Nationalisms.
The valuable space provided by the GFA has not been used well on either side of this island.

Absolutely correct.

The notion put forward recently that there were now three minorities in the North has not been accepted by either of the older two. Unionism is dying, but in the way that they are celebrating and cheering it on, the Shinners don't realise that they are dying off too.

igCorcaigh

blanch152 wrote: »

Absolutely correct.

The notion put forward recently that there were now three minorities in the North has not been accepted by either of the older two. Unionism is dying, but in the way that they are celebrating and cheering it on, the Shinners don't realise that they are dying off too.

Progress, slowly.

The ones who call people on to the streets are dying. I hope young people see a future vibrant and multi cultural country.

EDIT: It is really unfair of me to say that, as I do not live in the region. It is up for people of the region to say that, rather than me projecting my feelings onto those people. I apologise.

Nqp15hhu

Doesn’t mean we all want a United Ireland though. Doesn’t mean I’m backward for being a Unionist either.

igCorcaigh

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

Doesn’t mean we all want a United Ireland though. Doesn’t mean I’m backward for being a Unionist either.

If we get to a stage where most people understand that both Irish unionists and nationalists positions are both valid, we can begin to make progress.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

The notion put forward recently that there were now three minorities in the North has not been accepted by either of the older two. Unionism is dying, but in the way that they are celebrating and cheering it on, the Shinners don't realise that they are dying off too.

There will be two 'types' of people in a referendum on uniting our country, those who vote yes and those who vote no. They can identify as Ewoks for all I care.

I'm sure Ewoks would have a better life in a United Ireland anyway.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Absolutely correct.

The notion put forward recently that there were now three minorities in the North has not been accepted by either of the older two. Unionism is dying, but in the way that they are celebrating and cheering it on, the Shinners don't realise that they are dying off too.

There is no denying what is growing and that is the conversation that belligerent Unionism and what can be called belligerent partitionism don't want to have. Fear mongering and billions and billions of cost is the order of the day.

They are desperately trying to threaten and handwave it away. They will enlist the foolish (caught in the white heat of political oneupmanship) to try and bring the whole show down but the conversation will continue, drawing in more and more voices.

That is what is happening if you look around you.

Junkyard Tom

igCorcaigh wrote: »

If we get to a stage where most people understand that both Irish unionists and nationalists positions are both valid, we can begin to make progress.

This is both-sides-ism. I get it, you want to project the impression that you have a 'fair and balanced' view but there's a deep dysfunction underlying all this that is never going away.

The vast majority of Irish people wanted independence from our former colonist but so-called 'Unionists' threatened a campaign of mass terrorism and that was followed by the British threatening 'immediate and terrible war' if partition wasn't accepted.

Now tell me again that those who seek independence and freedom, from a regime that caused untold death and destruction to the Irish nation, are equivalent to those who wanted to prevent it by threat of more death and destruction.

Go ahead.

Bobeagleburger

Northern Ireland will change for the better over the next 3 to 4 decades. The extreme elements will fade massively. Then a UI will be on the cards. Maybe before 2050.

FrancieBrady

The dangerous attempt by those who have turned on the PSNI and PPS to get people onto the streets will show once again how difficult the UDA and belligerent Unionism find it to draw the vast majority of Unionists in.
There is little to no support for violence.
Strategic thinking of belligerent Unionists is awful, frankly.

wicklowstevo

6 wrote: »

Northern Ireland will change for the better over the next 3 to 4 decades. The extreme elements will fade massively. Then a UI will be on the cards. Maybe before 2050.

that might be the best case, I d guess at a little bit longer given the age profile of the people rioting at the min and the connections between the main political parties on both sides to criminality
and given a massive turn around in the economics required of NI of course requiring capable and competent political leadership
which does not exist in NI at this time

wicklowstevo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The dangerous attempt by those who have turned on the PSNI and PPS to get people onto the streets will show once again how difficult the UDA and belligerent Unionism find it to draw the vast majority of Unionists in.
There is little to no support for violence.
Strategic thinking of belligerent Unionists is awful, frankly.

do you mind if I keep this post in mind for when young nationalists riot ?

FrancieBrady

wicklowstevo wrote: »

do you mind if I keep this post in mind for when young nationalists riot ?

If it helps you avoid addressing the last throes of Unionism and partitionism's attempts to crash and burn NI to salvage something from disastrous strategic planning and choices, yes work away.

TomTomTim

The Journal seem to have a bizarre obsession with this topic. Reading their articles you'd think that we'd already decided on it, and all we had to do was work out the details. They are forcing the topic on people in the most inorganic way possible. It'a both pathetic and unethical.

JimmyVik

TomTomTim wrote: »

The Journal seem to have a bizarre obsession with this topic. Reading their articles you'd think that we'd already decided on it, and all we had to do was work out the details. They are forcing the topic on people in the most inorganic way possible. It'a both pathetic and unethical.

True that.
Maybe we will be ready to move forward in 20 or 30 years, but definitely not in the next decade or two.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

There will be two 'types' of people in a referendum on uniting our country, those who vote yes and those who vote no. They can identify as Ewoks for all I care.

I'm sure Ewoks would have a better life in a United Ireland anyway.

I get that you don't care about other's identity/identities. That is a consistent ideological position of exclusionary nationalism.

With the recent events over the last few nights in Belfast, it is becoming clear that an all-Ireland should not even be on any agenda until the various sides in the North manage to live with each other.

Seathrun66

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The dangerous attempt by those who have turned on the PSNI and PPS to get people onto the streets will show once again how difficult the UDA and belligerent Unionism find it to draw the vast majority of Unionists in.
There is little to no support for violence.
Strategic thinking of belligerent Unionists is awful, frankly.

I agree, and I also believe the threat of Unionist terrorist violence countrywide is greatly over-stated.

They don't have the support. They don't have the organisation. These loyalist paramilitaries are not clever people and they don't have the help of the RUC and MI5 that allowed them to function in the 1970s and 1980s. Any attempts to derail a united Ireland would be dismantled very easily.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I get that you don't care about other's identity/identities. That is a consistent ideological position of exclusionary nationalism.

With the recent events over the last few nights in Belfast, it is becoming clear that an all-Ireland should not even be on any agenda until the various sides in the North manage to live with each other.

We are talking about probably less than 100 people here overall, engaged in low level (in the context of the north) violence. Plenty of onlookers.

What care are you showing for the identities that want a UI and change in Ireland? Asking them to put away their aspirations is ok, but asking Unionists to be the democrats they said they would be is offensive.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We are talking about probably less than 100 people here overall, engaged in low level (in the context of the north) violence. Plenty of onlookers.

What care are you showing for the identities that want a UI and change in Ireland? Asking them to put away their aspirations is ok, but asking Unionists to be the democrats they said they would be is offensive.

If there are 12,500 members 20 years into ‘peace’, I can imagine how those numbers will escalate in the current climate https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-55151249

drdidlittle

Seathrun66 wrote: »

I agree, and I also believe the threat of Unionist terrorist violence countrywide is greatly over-stated.

They don't have the support. They don't have the organisation. These loyalist paramilitaries are not clever people and they don't have the help of the RUC and MI5 that allowed them to function in the 1970s and 1980s. Any attempts to derail a united Ireland would be dismantled very easily.

Doesn't have to be wide spread or country wide. In an UI, any part of the country will be our problem.