United Ireland Poll - please vote

BluePlanet

Neither Independent NI nor Joint Sovereignty are part of the GFA blanch. Try again.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320426#Comment_118320426

I never said I was looking for an independent Northern Ireland, I have said that it is one of the options that will come on the table from that third minority.

"recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland;"

That agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland extends to the form and substance of a united Ireland. Essentially, what this says is that the form of a united Ireland is based on an agreement between North and South, separately ratified. That will include how future constitutional change will happen. You cannot say that will not include a future veto. It may, it may not.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320453#Comment_118320453

You are a great man for putting in full stops where there are none.

That passage applies to deciding on a united Ireland.

It says ZERO about constitutional arrangements in that UI.

Anyone who understands democracy knows that fundamentally the constitution can only be agreed by a majority of the electorate. And you cannot poll an electorate that is not united as one sovereign entity.

Give this cul de sac a miss blanch, you are already stretching credulity.

BluePlanet

So basically blanch wants unionists votes to count more than nationalist votes in NI poll for a UI (doesn't want to respect a 50% +1 vote UI result).

AND he wants unionists within the 6 counties to have a futue veto on Constitutional Change within a UI?

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118319967#Comment_118319967

Not abusing. No offence. I agree, its like that. People push for a stand so they can pick at it without actually engaging.

Go ahead.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320585#Comment_118320585

Nope, none of that is stated in my posts.

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320762#Comment_118320762

Maybe not stated explicitly but it certainly implied.

So tell me: Do you support the 50% +1 vote threshold, in a UI referendum result within NI?

Do you support giving unionists a veto on constitutional change in a UI?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320781#Comment_118320781

Not stated, but imagined to be there.

My posts state my position clearly.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320799#Comment_118320799

Exactly, 'your' position, Which is bizarre and fantastical.

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320799#Comment_118320799

Which are what Blanch?

That you don't support the 50% +1 vote threshold?

That you would like unionists to have a veto over constitutional change within a UI?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320832#Comment_118320832

As I said already, they don't say that, and I am not going down any rabbit hole either, happy to debate the issues.

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321067#Comment_118321067

Well blanch you either support the 50% +1 threshold or you don't. Why prevaricate?

Tell us more about the unionist veto over constitutional change in a UI, how could that work? Constitutional change is only possible in Ireland via a referendum and people don't self identify as one party or another before casting ballots. Do you imagine that the people inside the 6 counties will get to have their votes counted twice? Do you envison such a policy for the 6 counties or just the 2 unionist majority ones?

Additionally, if it is a need for unionism to have their votes weighted more than other ones, should geography come into it all? What about unionist that may be living in another county outside the 6? Those unionist votes don't count as much as the ones in Antrim?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320517#Comment_118320517

It doesn't exactly say zero.

"(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland;"

Northern Ireland has a seat at the table, as equal partners in determining how it will be facilitated in a prospective united Ireland. Nothing to stop them putting the idea forward as a way to keep the middle ground up there on board. What I keep saying is that the exclusionary nationalists have really to put their thinking caps on because while unionists are a minority, so are nationalists, and they need to woo the middle ground with goodies. They also need to ensure that those goodies don't turn off the South, whether it is by increasing taxes or changing flags and anthems.

When you look at that in the round, there could be ten years of discussions even if the SoS announced tomorrow he was interested in having a border poll, something itself that looks unlikely this decade.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321179#Comment_118321179

There is NO full stop blanch.

"(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a united Ireland, 

The two parts must agree to unite. That is what it says, it DOES NOT say diddly squat about arrangements in a UI which will be our affair as a united sovereign country. But you know this and the limb of fantasy you are out on.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321106#Comment_118321106

I never said that there would be a unionist veto over constitutional change. How could that be, seeing as unionists are a minority in the North now?

What I am hinting at, is some kind of federal arrangement, whereby constitutional change might require positive votes in both jurisdictions. That may be the only federal aspect, or there may be more, but in order to preserve the rights of the North enshrined in the GFA, that would be the minimum that would come out of it.

Nowhere in any post, have I ever countenanced a unionist veto. All I have pointed to is majorities and the scale of them in Northern Ireland. Sectarian head-counters may interpret that as a unionist veto, but I have no time for sectarian head-counters, only interested in those willing to united the people.

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321197#Comment_118321197

Oh so you're here promoting Eire Nua, that old chestnut that nobody supports.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118317564#Comment_118317564

Well, then when the time comes, vote NO. It's as simple as that. Not sure how, after months and months on this thread that you're still asking those in favour of a UI "how will it benefit me?" and expecting an answer.

And that's not to mention your Ulster family and friends....

If you can't see ANY benefits at this point then I fear that you're a lost cause.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118319606#Comment_118319606

The name of the State? Is "Ireland" to much for ya?

Imagine if Unionists had been more accommodating and inclusive from the 20s onwards? What can unionism do to be more inclusive?

What are Republicans, Nationalists and indeed this State doing that is "non-inclusive" towards Unionism?

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321423#Comment_118321423

There are many things that can be up for discussion in a reunified Ireland but the country's name IMHO is fine as it is being Ireland. No need for any change there IMHO.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320015#Comment_118320015

Is saying anyone who wants a UI should get more than 50+1 for maturity sake, exclusionary or just unfair and undemocratic?

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320274#Comment_118320274

Personally I don't think we should. Is there or has there even been an Irish party that didn't want a UI? Except for the DUP/UUP of course.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118318694#Comment_118318694

Just like a Brexiter you think you get to keep your privileges if you 'win'.

You absolutely won't. A UI will be declared the moment a vote for it is passed in the north, what are you going to do about it? Victimise people in the north a second time? Back into The Dail the next day as if nothing happened? No chance.

Try gaming these things out instead resorting to reflexive resentment at the prospect of unification.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321679#Comment_118321679

Many people on here have told me everything is on the table.

Why not call the country Hibernia in a completely new start?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321749#Comment_118321749

What nonsense. I am saying that unlike Brexit, the full implications of what is happening should be disclosed in advance, discussed in full North and South, and voted on North and South. I am also saying that if the North votes first and there is a very narrow victory for a united Ireland, that the South should carefully consider whether the democratic aims of the GFA of uniting the people first have been met. Having done so, the South could vote yes or no.

All very reasonable and democratic.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321727#Comment_118321727

It doesn't matter whether you think there should or should not be a referendum. Legally, one will be required.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321208#Comment_118321208

Nope, Eire Nua was a stupid idea. No, the logical outcome would be federal, based on the existing border, not the nonsensical approach of Eire Nua, a cartoon idea.

Federal states have huge variety. As I said, the only federal aspect could be on constitutional change, or it could range right up to a confederation of two separate States with separate judiciary, health, education, taxes etc. That would all be up for discussion.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118322174#Comment_118322174

First you add a full stop into the Constitution to make this 'unite the people first' fantasy work, where did you add the full stop in the GFA?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118322249#Comment_118322249

What makes you think a full stop is needed?

The intent is there, a blinkered narrow approach isn't what an inclusive agreement like the GFA is like. I know that Gerry and the lads sold a particular line to the membership but the narrow interpretation isn't shared outside of exclusionary nationalist circles.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118322174#Comment_118322174

The moment a pro-UI vote in the north happens, that's 50% +1 vote, then there will be nothing else to discuss but how we unify the country. There is no reverse gear on this bus.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118322278#Comment_118322278

blanch - the notion that the constitution or the GFA ordains that the people be united 'first' is bogus and achieved by you adding a full stop where there isn't one, as I showed you.

It's a read that Jamie Bryson would try with cod legalese.