United Ireland Poll - please vote

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331791#Comment_118331791

Is it? Tell that to Republican paramilitaries. It sounds like you may have taken the peace for granted. SF will wipe the floor with FFFG at the next GE.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331791#Comment_118331791

If there was any appetite for a federal outcome then it would have found political expression.

It has as much political clout as partitionism has in the south.

BluePlanet

blanch you refer all the way back to 1974 to promote a Federal Ireland or Joint Sovereignty.

Now, what have FFFG done since, to advocate for that outcome?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331859#Comment_118331859

You are the very poster that has said that everything should be on the table.

As soon as something you don't like comes on the table, you are shutting the conversation down.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331873#Comment_118331873

Sunningdale, New Ireland Forum, Anglo-Irish Agreement, Good Friday Agreement, Shared Island Unit, the list of things that have been done go on and on.

In contrast, all Sinn Fein have ever done is start and then stop killing people.

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118332058#Comment_118332058

Where is Federal Ireland and Joint Sovereignty in the GFA again?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118332071#Comment_118332071

They are possible options for a negotiated united Ireland.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118332119#Comment_118332119

With how much support? Handing the keys back to the Queen and reuniting as part of the UK is a possible option for a United Ireland.....but like your federalist Ireland, it has such a laughably small level of support that the only reason anyone could possibly bring it up is purely deflectionary.

Don't give me your, 'NI middle ground' nonsense either, I've a great deal more exposure to the NI middle ground than you. I can't think of a single person I know personally in favour of a federalist solution.....and your other NI independence solution is supported by famous parts of the middle ground like the UDA.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118332052#Comment_118332052

I am the poster telling you that what you keep trying to put on the table to either give Unionism a veto or to stall has no political support worth talking about.

You can put whatever you want on the table. But you are going to have to take criticisms of it on board.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331710#Comment_118331710

And middle Ireland turn out to be mostly shinner inclined at that :)

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331791#Comment_118331791

Your brand of flip flop pedantry won't work on humans in this reality.

A UI is a UI. Its in the U. If the rest of Ulster doesn't unite with Ireland...its not a UI.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118332058#Comment_118332058

The fact was, all the other initiatives (that FG and FF piggybacked on, with varying levels of enthusiasm) were failures until Hume ignored the disapproval of almost everybody with responsibility(the SDLP and FG most notably) and engaged with Adams, and accepted Adams insistence that there could only be an all island solution.

As to those 'after' the GFA, FG and FF allowed the GFA to stagnate to the point that it almost collapsed. The SIU only exists because the Shinners are battering on the door and the DUP etc turned on their friends in Dublin (as well as everybody else) after Brexit and the Protocol.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118332959#Comment_118332959

All the Irish Tories will be arm in arm singing 'A nation once again' when it happens. Too cute to not know which way the wind is blowing. Thats why every leader at some point gets all misty eyed about a UI. Just incase.

The latest David McWilliams podcast (ep 197) looks at a lot of this, UI voting intention, FG/FF/SF, etc. Worth a listen imo.

Dazler97

I seen the gerry Adams Christmas advert abit mad

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118332119#Comment_118332119

By who? Who wants to negotiate for that? Looks like when UI gets closer people like yourself are looking to pedantic alternatives to deny people seeking a UI by trying to change what it means.

There will only be an appetite for such silly alternatives when a UI gets closer and Unionists more desperate.

Should we be telling unionists they will still be part of the UK because we all live on Earth?

markodaly

Do people still think a UI is simply lobbing on a few counties onto the Republic and we carry on like before?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356328#Comment_118356328

I don't know. It suits certain posters to pretend that is the case, because then the debate on how to do it and how much it will cost can be avoided.

Deep down they know it is not going to happen like that, mainly because of the emergence of the Northern Irish identity which will want to hang to that element meaning a federal option is now the most likely of the unlikely outcomes of a united Ireland.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356763#Comment_118356763

The 'federal' and 'independent' options that dare not speak their name politically, are the hidey hole for those who think 'themuns' might win something if they embrace a UI, I'd have thought.

dam099

How would a federal state not be a United Ireland? There are numerous federal states around the world e.g. USA, Germany which are all recognised as sovereign independent nations. What is a United Ireland if not the whole Island forming one sovereign nation. Whether that nation is Federal or not is a choice of system.

On a practical level it may not work given the unbalanced sizes of the Republic vs Northern Ireland and our lack of any real form of devolved regional government in the Republic. I think there would also be a (partially justified) fear that Unionists might try to treat a federal Northern Ireland region as a semi-independent NI statelet (in the absence of their preferred option of remaining in the UK). I would be open to a federal Ireland but only if the federal component was quite strong not with a states rights skew as in the USA.

I would agree I cant see how joint sovereignty could be considered a United Ireland.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356798#Comment_118356798

What nonsense.

On the one side we have a diminishing exclusionary nationalist minority who want a united Ireland and nothing else. On the other, we have a diminishing exclusionary nationalist minority who want to remain in the UK and nothing else.

In the middle we have a third minority who don't care much about the constitutional issue, they are just happy with the way things are. If they are to be persuaded to change (and that looks extremely unlikely), they will want the British identity protected and they will want the Northern Irish identity protected. How that will happen won't be through a simple united Ireland (which will never get majority support), a compromise idea will have to come on the table.

That many posters can't think beyond the simple and simplistic idea of a straight united Ireland doesn't mean I am wrong.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356871#Comment_118356871

Who other than yourself and a few belligerents propose an 'independent NI'?

Who, other than yourself proposes a federal Ireland/NI?

Get back to me whenever these ideas/hidey holes have any traction that is capable of being seen.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356898#Comment_118356898

Oh Francie, you of little faith. At the moment, the only people talking seriously about a united Ireland are exclusionary nationalists like Sinn Fein and others. All these ideas will come on the table if and when others join the debate which won't happen unless something changes to reverse the declining support for a united Ireland.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356328#Comment_118356328

No. In fact I've not seen anyone suggest such a thing. Have you?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356920#Comment_118356920

😁😁😁

In other words... nobody is talking about it except yourself and some belligerents.

Okey doke.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356940#Comment_118356940

Talking about what, a united Ireland?

I suppose you could classify the debate on here as me talking to some belligerents.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356763#Comment_118356763

This is more of your made up opposition.

That many posters can't think beyond the simple and simplistic idea of a straight united Ireland doesn't mean I am wrong.

You made this up. Can you quote anyone suggesting its simple?

You create an argument nobody made because its easier than debating what people actually said. Who do you think you are fooling?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356968#Comment_118356968

I am suggesting that the idea put forward that we just add on the six counties and don't even need a referendum in the South is both simple and simplistic.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357382#Comment_118357382

Put forward by whom? I don't recall any posters suggesting the six counties are just tagged on to the 26 and we plough on. Most Unification proponents I've seen on the thread seem to push the idea of using Unification as a platform for reform across the island.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118357382#Comment_118357382

Oh my bad. Thats not what this read like:

I don't know. It suits certain posters to pretend that is the case, because then the debate on how to do it and how much it will cost can be avoided.

Who? Who stated it was simplistic?

Deep down they know it is not going to happen like that, mainly because of the emergence of the Northern Irish identity which will want to hang to that element meaning a federal option is now the most likely of the unlikely outcomes of a united Ireland.

You are telling us that people seeking a UI think its simplistic. Who are these people?

You are telling us a Federal option is now the most likely option, beside you, who?

Some people want a UI. That is uniting all the counties and dispatching the partition of Ulster from the rest of Ulster.

Nobody thinks this will be simple.

You are pushing for alternatives and that's fine. Trying to claim a UI will take other forms is nonsense. There will be a UI or there won't. Any third option is not a UI.