United Ireland Poll - please vote

Bobeagleburger

Seathrun66 wrote: »

An appropriate response to your similar lack of nuance.

But we can afford it. Plenty of cash in the country, EU and US cash on the way and short-term UK financial obligations.

It's coming. Preparing for it is what we need to do.

Show me the maths. "Plenty of cash on the way" doesn't exactly cut it.

How can we afford it?

Seathrun66

6 wrote: »

A UI will never happen until it makes economic sense. The Brits are keeping it afloat. We can't afford to.

If someone has figures on any proposals on paying for it stick them up. Interested to see them.

We've a far higher per capita GDP than the UK. We can afford it.

UK financial obligations, EU & US money will greatly help though.

Bobeagleburger

Seathrun66 wrote: »

We've a far higher per capita GDP than the UK. We can afford it.

UK financial obligations, EU & US money will greatly help though.

Still not answering the question.

Break down how Northern Ireland will be paid for. It's ok if you can't, I don't expect you will be able to. I haven't seen anyone do it. Therin lies the elephant in the room.

It's an expensive basket case, heavily overloaded with public sector workers.

Seathrun66

blanch152 wrote: »

Don't worry, apparently we have a cast-iron case that we can take under some unknown international law to the International Court of Justice that will make the British pay for it even though they have to agree to go to the ICJ. Yes, you heard it here.

You enlisted for that night course yet?

The most obvious advantage is that you won't need someone else to answer simple questions for you. I'm happy to make the initial contribution to a crowdfunder.

Seathrun66

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Exactly. British jurisdiction is the problem and always will be until it is ended. Former Unionists in a United Ireland will just get on with it and we won't make the same mistakes their forefathers did in the 1920's.

Also, when the time comes for a vote on a United Ireland most of the world will be supportive. I suspect the majority of the UK will support a UI too putting the partitionists in a hilarious position of not supporting the unification of our people/country while the English, Americans, and continental Europeans do.

When the time comes the momentum will be unstoppable.

Oh the irony of a United Ireland being more popular in England than anywhere else.

briany

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Yep, that there's orchestrated violence intended to warn people off having a border poll. That attempted intimidation doesn't work on me. And nor should it on you.

Certain things sound good in theory but don't actually work in practice, like if you tell your son who's getting bullied at school to march right up to that bully and sock him in the face, that may be ignoring that the son doesn't know how to throw a punch and the bully is well capable of violence.

Now, I'm not using that scenario as a direct metaphor for the intimidation you're talking about, but I am saying that practicalities need to be considered. People might look at that shower kicking off and decide against ever voting for a UI, were such a thing to be put to a vote. They may just not see the benefits outweighing the risk.

Seathrun66

6 wrote: »

The younger demographic know they'll be the ones paying for it.

Also, they don't have the same romanticism of a UI as some of the older generations (myself included in that category!).

They're also polling high, just less so than the 45-65 and retired demographic.

There's no age group that isn't above the 50% threshold for reunification. And that will not change in the near future.

tastyt

The UK will be begging us to get our arse in gear and encourage the politicians to really get the conversation on UI going, and the sooner the better for them

Northern Ireland has always been a headache for the British but it’s turned into an absolute nightmare with Brexit . There will be little opposition from them on a UI

They’ll thank us for taking the problem away

FrancieBrady

tastyt wrote: »

The UK will be begging us to get our arse in gear and encourage the politicians to really get the conversation on UI going, and the sooner the better for them

Northern Ireland has always been a headache for the British but it’s turned into an absolute nightmare with Brexit . There will be little opposition from them on a UI

They’ll thank us for taking the problem away

The only ones left who UI doesn't suit are belligerent Unionists.

It now benefits us, the rest of the EU and Britain, who get a cleaner less complicated Brexit.

Seathrun66

6 wrote: »

Still not answering the question.

Break down how Northern Ireland will be paid for. It's ok if you can't, I don't expect you will be able to. I haven't seen anyone do it. Therin lies the elephant in the room.

It's an expensive basket case, heavily overloaded with public sector workers.

As opposed to where?

Second highest GDP in Europe (behind Luxembourg) and post-covid economic forecasts good. The EU has promised to invest heavily. It's in their interest to see a successful reunification alongside a chaotic failing Brexit. The US and others will invest, always have in the Republic and awaiting the opportunity in an undivided Ireland.

There will be teething problems. Germany had them. But we'll have the structure and cash to deal with it. Hopefully we can take the good things from the north and apply them nationally while jettisoning the bad.

Preparation is the key. I don't understand why there's focus on the differences rather than ensuring the planning is in place for the handover post-border poll.
It may be 2024. it may be 2028. It may be 2030. But it's imminent and Brexit/the DUP have ensured the way it's going to go.

Seathrun66

briany wrote: »

Certain things sound good in theory but don't actually work in practice, like if you tell your son who's getting bullied at school to march right up to that bully and sock him in the face, that may be ignoring that the son doesn't know how to throw a punch and the bully is well capable of violence.

Now, I'm not using that scenario as a direct metaphor for the intimidation you're talking about, but I am saying that practicalities need to be considered. People might look at that shower kicking off and decide against ever voting for a UI, were such a thing to be put to a vote. They may just not see the benefits outweighing the risk.

I agree with your analogy and with the possible effect on people in the Republic. I'd expect much more violence on the eve of a border poll. It will be the death throes of a failed statelet.

However we're pretty savvy voters in the Republic after a century of PR and having to weight through successive referenda. People can see through the purpose of such actions by a relatively small number of people. This is not likely to make a significant difference to voting patterns.

Hamsterchops

6 wrote: »

Hopefully we'll get to see a UI in our lifetime. I reckon by 2050. Anyone giving odds.

But what does that even mean?

What is s United Ireland? I mean when you can't even have a United Northern Ireland how can the whole island be "United" as one?

A United island hopefully, united in peace & harmony by 2050, but always divided by politics, allegiances and nationhood, I would imagine ...

Drifter50

Seathrun66 wrote: »

As opposed to where?

Second highest GDP in Europe (behind Luxembourg) and post-covid economic forecasts good. The EU has promised to invest heavily. It's in their interest to see a successful reunification alongside a chaotic failing Brexit. The US and others will invest, always have in the Republic and awaiting the opportunity in an undivided Ireland.

There will be teething problems. Germany had them. But we'll have the structure and cash to deal with it. Hopefully we can take the good things from the north and apply them nationally while jettisoning the bad.

Preparation is the key. I don't understand why there's focus on the differences rather than ensuring the planning is in place for the handover post-border poll.
It may be 2024. it may be 2028. It may be 2030. But it's imminent and Brexit/the DUP have ensured the way it's going to go.

Would you not think its slightly more important to sort out our health service and homeless crisis before we go looking to bury our finances for another 10/20 years. Look at the absolute shambles that is the HSE and look how its a black hole for money. We will have the most expensive hospital in the new NCH and our response to Covid shows how completely inept we are at managing any big projects. Few of our younger people have any prospects of owning their own homes in the near future. I`d say these are the issues that matter to the the younger generations, not taking on a basket case of an economy and a bunch of bigoted lunatics on both sides. Just remember because of the GFA which was essential, there are people walking free in NI who have no business not being jailed for the rest of their lives. Not in any other mildly sophisticated European country would we see that.

Jesus wept, I despair of these attitudes. A UI is inevitable due to demographics but there is an awfully long way to go yet, probably 2 generations, maybe, maybe one

Junkyard Tom

Drifter50 wrote: »

Would you not think its slightly more important to sort out our health service and homeless crisis before we go looking to bury our finances for another 10/20 years.

The British built the NHS and millions of homes after the death and destruction of WWII.

We can handle uniting our country.

maestroamado

What's happening in Belfast at the moment or can it likely present a real problem.
I was talking to a friend who's son lives in Belfast and he says its nothing just a few kids.
Then i read today on the Times that Dublin taking it very serious.
Does anyone here know what's really happening....

BonnieSituation

Drifter50 wrote: »

Would you not think its slightly more important to sort out our health service and homeless crisis before we go looking to bury our finances for another 10/20 years. Look at the absolute shambles that is the HSE and look how its a black hole for money. We will have the most expensive hospital in the new NCH and our response to Covid shows how completely inept we are at managing any big projects. Few of our younger people have any prospects of owning their own homes in the near future. I`d say these are the issues that matter to the the younger generations, not taking on a basket case of an economy and a bunch of bigoted lunatics on both sides. Just remember because of the GFA which was essential, there are people walking free in NI who have no business not being jailed for the rest of their lives. Not in any other mildly sophisticated European country would we see that.

Jesus wept, I despair of these attitudes. A UI is inevitable due to demographics but there is an awfully long way to go yet, probably 2 generations, maybe, maybe one

I despair at the attitudes that we alway have to wait 'til everything is just right. If we had that attitude we would never had Whitaker and Lemass or the Rainbow Coalition dragging us out of the dark ages.

We can't afford to NOT have a UI now. The recent week of violence has shown that.

BonnieSituation

Hamsterchops wrote: »

But what does that even mean?

What is s United Ireland? I mean when you can't even have a United Northern Ireland how can the whole island be "United" as one?

A United island hopefully, united in peace & harmony by 2050, but always divided by politics, allegiances and nationhood, I would imagine ...

Why are you still harping on with these nonsense posts?
Some cheek to ask someone "[but] what does that even mean?" and then follow it up with that post.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

But what does that even mean?

What is s United Ireland? I mean when you can't even have a United Northern Ireland how can the whole island be "United" as one?

A United island hopefully, united in peace & harmony by 2050, but always divided by politics, allegiances and nationhood, I would imagine ...

Why don't some of you asking this question explain what a 'United' country is to you?

Give us a few real world examples.

RandomName2

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Exactly. British jurisdiction is the problem and always will be until it is ended.

It is for some (little less than half of the population of NI). Really the opinions of people in the republic in relation to British jurisdiction is irrelevant. My issue with unification is to do with cost, lack of tangible benefit, while the doe-eyed patriotism that you ascribe to is undercut by blood debt.

You say that there is no cost too great, drawing comparisons to the UK rebuilding itself in the wake of the Blitz and WW2. A disquieting analogy perhaps.

You say that everything plays second fiddle to the unification of 'our people', but then say

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Former Unionists in a United Ireland will just get on with it

Not sure if you are counting them along with 'our people'. Not sure if they would want you to, even if you were.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

and we won't make the same mistakes their forefathers did in the 1920's.

Which mistakes were those? The mistakes where zealotry took hold among Irish men who based nationalism upon religious persuasion (both north and south); where minorities (both north and south) were supposed to suck up their changed circumstances or leave; where large groups refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of new states and engaged in war instead of politics until they, having carelessly thrown lives to the pursuit of combat, eventually realized that it was more profitable to do business in a parliament than attempt to overthrow it?

I don't know.
While the Vatican as a guiding light of Irish nationalism has thankfully died a death, casual jingoism and the discounting of large groups of people still seems to be prevalent. Seeing that the pursuit seems to be principally for empty symbolism I have to question the motivation.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Also, when the time comes for a vote on a United Ireland most of the world will be supportive.

Most of the world won't give a damn, or at least as much of a damn as they do about Nagorno-Karabakh.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I suspect the majority of the UK will support a UI too

They already do. Pragmatists see the financial drain of the pugnacious tiny country that is Northern Ireland, and see it as a burden rather than an asset.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

putting the partitionists in a hilarious position of not supporting the unification of our people/country while the English, Americans, and continental Europeans do.

As has ever been the case. The Unionists have long cited the betrayal of Whitehall. It is no coincidence that in the 20th century it was the Unionists who were first to arm themselves against London.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

When the time comes the momentum will be unstoppable.

Some tomorrow belongs to me vibes.

drdidlittle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why don't some of you asking this question explain what a 'United' country is to you?

Give us a few real world examples.

No petrol bombs being thrown when x happens.
Fully functioning government in North to oversee and implement a UI
Full plan on finance and transition of services
What Joe Irish man will have to give up
What Bill Unionist will have to give up

Let's start there and see how it goes. Not even getting into legal and political list....

blanch152

Seathrun66 wrote: »

An appropriate response to your similar lack of nuance.

But we can afford it. Plenty of cash in the country, EU and US cash on the way and short-term UK financial obligations.

It's coming. Preparing for it is what we need to do.

There is no money for a united Ireland, there are tax increases and social welfare cuts. Let's be realistic.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

There is no money for a united Ireland, there are tax increases and social welfare cuts. Let's be realistic.

You can do better than this surely This is at the level of your "People won't vote for a UI because they'll miss Sainsbury's" argument.

There's money for anything we want.

Dart Underground got shelved for lack of apparent finance yet we funded PUP out of thin air?

We can afford a UI.

FrancieBrady

drdidlittle wrote: »

No petrol bombs being thrown when x happens.

Plenty of so called 'united countries' where there is unrest and protest. Look around you, UK, France, Germany, US, etc all have incidents of streeet violence.

Fully functioning government in North to oversee and implement a UI

The reason a change is required is that partition itself has ensured there never will be a 'functioning government'. How many years do you need to see this? 100 years is long enough.

Full plan on finance and transition of services

No Irish government will go into a Border Poll without a plan and a proposal to achieve our constitutional aspiration. Every referendum we have has a proposal and a well discussed plan. This one will be no different.

What Joe Irish man will have to give up

see above

What Bill Unionist will have to give up

see above

Let's start there and see how it goes. Not even getting into legal and political list....

Nobody is saying that nirvana exists on the other side of a successful border poll BTW.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

There is no money for a united Ireland,

This is Phase 4 you've arrived at, remarkable progression you must admit. I think you were at Phase 1 not all that long ago.

Phase 1: 'never going to happen'.

Phase 2: 'not going to happen in our lifetimes anyway'.

Phase 3: 'not ready for this it's decades away yet'.

Phase 4: 'we can't afford it'.

I haven't quite figured out what phase 5 is yet.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

This is Phase 4 you've arrived at, remarkable progression you must admit. I think you were at Phase 1 not all that long ago.

Phase 1: 'never going to happen'.

Phase 2: 'not going to happen in our lifetimes anyway'.

Phase 3: 'not ready for this it's decades away yet'.

Phase 4: 'we can't afford it'.

I haven't quite figured out what phase 5 is yet.

I am still at Phase 1.

drdidlittle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Plenty of so called 'united countries' where there is unrest and protest. Look around you, UK, France, Germany, US, etc all have incidents of streeet violence.

The reason a change is required is that partition itself has ensured there never will be a 'functioning government'. How many years do you need to see this? 100 years is long enough.
No Irish government will go into a Border Poll without a plan and a proposal to achieve our constitutional aspiration. Every referendum we have has a proposal and a well discussed plan. This one will be no different.
see above
see above



Nobody is saying that nirvana exists on the other side of a successful border poll BTW.

Give me some ideas as to this plan and what it may contain. Some specific items...please

FrancieBrady

drdidlittle wrote: »

Give me some ideas as to this plan and what it may contain. Some specific items...please

Loads of discussion on this on the reunification thread. Loads of work and discussion done in government already.

See here for work done by Oireachtas Committee.

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/joint_committee_on_the_implementation_of_the_good_friday_agreement/reports/2017/2017-08-02_brexit-and-the-future-of-ireland-uniting-ireland-and-its-people-in-peace-and-prosperity_en.pdf

By the way, I am not here to try to convince you. Like any other citizen the onus is on YOU to inform and educate yourself. And then vote accordingly.

Seathrun66

Hamsterchops wrote: »

But what does that even mean?

What is s United Ireland? I mean when you can't even have a United Northern Ireland how can the whole island be "United" as one?

A United island hopefully, united in peace & harmony by 2050, but always divided by politics, allegiances and nationhood, I would imagine ...

Same as every other country then.

JimmyVik

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Same as every other country then.

Except its two different countries on this island.

Seathrun66

Drifter50 wrote: »

Would you not think its slightly more important to sort out our health service and homeless crisis before we go looking to bury our finances for another 10/20 years. Look at the absolute shambles that is the HSE and look how its a black hole for money. We will have the most expensive hospital in the new NCH and our response to Covid shows how completely inept we are at managing any big projects. Few of our younger people have any prospects of owning their own homes in the near future. I`d say these are the issues that matter to the the younger generations, not taking on a basket case of an economy and a bunch of bigoted lunatics on both sides. Just remember because of the GFA which was essential, there are people walking free in NI who have no business not being jailed for the rest of their lives. Not in any other mildly sophisticated European country would we see that.

Jesus wept, I despair of these attitudes. A UI is inevitable due to demographics but there is an awfully long way to go yet, probably 2 generations, maybe, maybe one

Not judging by polling. A poll this year would be very tight and hard to call. Not so in 4/5 years. It'll happen this decade and if unsuccessful, then again in the 2030s.

Ireland can afford it, particularly with outside investment which will come. The cash is there, has been for some time, just the wrong priorities by successive governments.