United Ireland Poll - please vote

JimmyVik

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Not judging by polling. A poll this year would be very tight and hard to call. Not so in 4/5 years. It'll happen this decade and if unsuccessful, then again in the 2030s.

Ireland can afford it, particularly with outside investment which will come. The cash is there, has been for some time, just the wrong priorities by successive governments.

I would have to totally disagree with everything you posted there

jones

Where are people getting the idea we can afford it? This whole 'Ireland has a massive GDP' argument is rubbish - Ireland's GDP is basically meaningless due to all the multinationals who send money outside of the country we appear MUCH richer in GDP terms than we are in reality.

On a UI - in theory i like the idea as i think most "Irish" people do but i honestly cannot see it working. The violence at the moment is nothing compared to what it will be if a border poll passes and something actually starts to happen in relation to UI. It will be like a repeat of the troubles but in reverse IMO

Seathrun66

JimmyVik wrote: »

Except its two different countries on this island.

Geo-politically yes, but not for much longer.

Seathrun66

JimmyVik wrote: »

I would have to totally disagree with everything you posted there

Well, that's won me over.

eire4

jones wrote: »

Where are people getting the idea we can afford it? This whole 'Ireland has a massive GDP' argument is rubbish - Ireland's GDP is basically meaningless due to all the multinationals who send money outside of the country we appear MUCH richer in GDP terms than we are in reality.

On a UI - in theory i like the idea as i think most "Irish" people do but i honestly cannot see it working. The violence at the moment is nothing compared to what it will be if a border poll passes and something actually starts to happen in relation to UI. It will be like a repeat of the troubles but in reverse IMO

I doubt that very much. I just do not see the British security forces colluding with loyalists like they did during the troubles.

JimmyVik

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Well, that's won me over.

I doubt you would ever be won over

Seathrun66

JimmyVik wrote: »

I doubt you would ever be won over

By enlightened argument, yes. I have no set political party and am willing to listen to all. The same goes with political points. Fire away.

Seathrun66

eire4 wrote: »

I doubt that very much. I just do not see the British security forces colluding with loyalists like they did during the troubles.

Agreed. The RUC, British Army and MI5 collaboration of old is gone. Westminster wants rid of Northern Ireland.

JimmyVik

Seathrun66 wrote: »

By enlightened argument, yes. I have no set political party and am willing to listen to all. The same goes with political points. Fire away.

Read the thread from the start.

There are lots of reasoned arguments as to how it cant happen all the way through it.
And then you have the people who just say things like.

It will happen. We have enough money. Most people want it.
You cant reason with them.

RandomName2

eire4 wrote: »

I doubt that very much. I just do not see the British security forces colluding with loyalists like they did during the troubles.

You know that argument makes no sense?

He said in reverse, so loyalists in a UI being like republicans in NI.

Republicans didn't collude with security forces.

jones

RandomName2 wrote: »

You know that argument makes no sense?

He said in reverse, so loyalists in a UI being like republicans in NI.

Republicans didn't collude with security forces.

My point exactly i did not mean there would be collusion in that regard i just meant re violence

Seathrun66

JimmyVik wrote: »

Read the thread from the start.

There are lots of reasoned arguments as to how it cant happen all the way through it.
And then you have the people who just say things like.

It will happen. We have enough money. Most people want it.
You cant reason with them.

They're the ones providing the coherent facts from what I observe.

A United Ireland is demographically and economically inevitable. The anger from the Loyalists is due to the unstoppable momentum of this.

Polling in both the Republic and North is indicating this progression.

The Republic has the second highest GDP in the EU. The union has promised funds in the event of reunification. The US has also promised investment.

England and Westminster want rid of Northern Ireland. It's a political burden.

To dispute any of this is blinkered and indicative of the Afrikaans attitude towards the end of their Apartheid state.

Best to prepare and make the transformation as easy as possible and as beneficial as possible for all.

BluePlanet

jones wrote: »

My point exactly i did not mean there would be collusion in that regard i just meant re violence

Moving goalposts.
You said

On a UI - in theory i like the idea as i think most "Irish" people do but i honestly cannot see it working. The violence at the moment is nothing compared to what it will be if a border poll passes and something actually starts to happen in relation to UI. It will be like a repeat of the troubles but in reverse IMO

Maybe you're not aware that the Loyalist terrorists were largely assisted and abetted by British crown forces.
After a UI referenda British forces won't be assisting them.
Rather they'll be assisting Irish forces to insure a peaceful transition.
It would be a major embarrassment internationally for Britain should her compatriots commit terrorism after a such significant plebiscite on the international stage.

Additionally, the Unionist population, or those that would countenance staging a guerilla campaign, lack the necessary ingredients that are necessary for such a drawn out low level campaign such as the Troubles.

jones

BluePlanet wrote:

Maybe you're not aware that the Loyalist terrorists were largely assisted and abetted by British crown forces. After a UI referenda British forces won't be assisting them. Rather they'll be assisting Irish forces to insure a peaceful transition. It would be a major embarrassment internationally for Britain should her compatriots commit terrorism after a such significant plebiscite on the international stage.

BluePlanet wrote:

Additionally, the Unionist population, or those that would countenance staging a guerilla campaign, lack the necessary ingredients that are necessary for such a drawn out low level campaign such as the Troubles.

No I knew about it but it's not what I meant in my original post, I was referring to a guerilla campaign coming from the other direction this time hence my reverse comment.

I hope your right on the last point

tom1ie

Seathrun66 wrote: »

They're the ones providing the coherent facts from what I observe.

A United Ireland is demographically and economically inevitable. The anger from the Loyalists is due to the unstoppable momentum of this.

Polling in both the Republic and North is indicating this progression.

The Republic has the second highest GDP in the EU. The union has promised funds in the event of reunification. The US has also promised investment.

England and Westminster want rid of Northern Ireland. It's a political burden.

To dispute any of this is blinkered and indicative of the Afrikaans attitude towards the end of their Apartheid state.

Best to prepare and make the transformation as easy as possible and as beneficial as possible for all.

Will you be happy to pay another 10% tax to fund all the wages of the northern civil servants that we would have to find employment for?

BluePlanet

jones wrote: »

No I knew about it but it's not what I meant in my original post, I was referring to a guerilla campaign coming from the other direction this time hence my reverse comment.

I hope your right on the last point

Consider what the IRA had going for them and even then it was a barely sustainable campaign.

-A widely held historical narrative about British conquest of Ireland and subsequent Irish rebellions seeking Independence.
-Past guerilla organization and campaigns to draw lessons from.
-Active and real grievances in NI.
-Major passive support throughout the island and USA.
-Active logistical support throughout the island.
-Geography
-International relations
-Funding
-The ability to maintain enough recruits to sustain a low level campaign.

Now, what do the Loyalists have after a UI referenda?
Do they have ANY of those?

Bobeagleburger

tom1ie wrote: »

Will you be happy to pay another 10% tax to fund all the wages of the northern civil servants that we would have to find employment for?

That's where it will all fall apart. Unless the economics work it'll fail before it even starts.

BluePlanet

6 wrote: »

That's where it will all fall apart. Unless the economics work it'll fail before it even starts.

I'm glad that attitudes like that did not prevail in just about every single independence struggle the world over.

Bobeagleburger

BluePlanet wrote: »

I'm glad that attitudes like that did not prevail in just about every single independence struggle the world over.

Unfortunately it's probably fact.

Hamsterchops

Seathrun66 wrote: »

A United Ireland is demographically and economically inevitable. The anger from the Loyalists is due to the unstoppable momentum of this. for all.

Really?

Rock on Tommy, bring it on and I'll get out me old cheque book and fill the massive financial hole

Sorry Mrs Foster, yes you do have to pay €60 to see your GP in this New Ireland, "What"? I'm afraid trips to the GP are no longer free, neither are visits to the Dentist. Oh, and by the way your car insurance has just trippled

Ah sure that's just fine, at least we're all Irish now.

thegills

Fred Cryton wrote:

And it cost West German taxpayers about €2 trillion euro, with a 5% "solidarity tax" on every pay cheque. How do people feel about paying an additional 5% or 10% of their wages in tax for the North?

In Germany I think they just changed the catholic tax into the solidarity tax so not really a new tax.

Bobeagleburger

Germany, the 4th biggest economy in the world and an absolute powerhouse.

Not the best economic comparison when comparing the unity of East and West versus North and South of Ireland....

nullzero

The only Road to a United Ireland is for an independent Northern Ireland to prove it's ability to function and prosper economically.

If they can grow the hell up and achieve that then we can talk about a mutually favourable United Ireland.

As things stand the place is a basket case, their urges to ram their respective histories down each others necks by any means necessary shows they would be a dreadful addition to this country as things stand.

Seathrun66

jones wrote: »

No I knew about it but it's not what I meant in my original post, I was referring to a guerilla campaign coming from the other direction this time hence my reverse comment.

I hope your right on the last point

Loyalist paramilitaries don't the organisation, the collusion with British forces, the support and finance to wage such a campaign. That is not to say that they can't cause initial trouble but a sustained campaign is beyond them.

Seathrun66

tom1ie wrote: »

Will you be happy to pay another 10% tax to fund all the wages of the northern civil servants that we would have to find employment for?

Would never be 10% and it would be short-term if required. I'd be willing to pay extra tax.

Seathrun66

6 wrote: »

Unfortunately it's probably fact.

Then why enormous support in all polling in the Republic?

Seathrun66

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Really?

Rock on Tommy, bring it on and I'll get out me old cheque book and fill the massive financial hole

Sorry Mrs Foster, yes you do have to pay €60 to see your GP in this New Ireland, "What"? I'm afraid trips to the GP are no longer free, neither are visits to the Dentist. Oh, and by the way your car insurance has just trippled

Ah sure that's just fine, at least we're all Irish now.

Good to hear you're ready for a Border Poll then. You've got your arguments ready, they may work but are you confident?

Seathrun66

6 wrote: »

Germany, the 4th biggest economy in the world and an absolute powerhouse.

Not the best economic comparison when comparing the unity of East and West versus North and South of Ireland....

Why not? Ireland's GDP is greater than Germany's and we'll be taking on less than two million people with the aid of the UK, EU and US. Northern Ireland isn't as wealthy as the Republic but not as far behind as East Germany was in all aspects.

Seathrun66

nullzero wrote: »

The only Road to a United Ireland is for an independent Northern Ireland to prove it's ability to function and prosper economically.

If they can grow the hell up and achieve that then we can talk about a mutually favourable United Ireland.

As things stand the place is a basket case, their urges to ram their respective histories down each others necks by any means necessary shows they would be a dreadful addition to this country as things stand.

This will pass. It has for most of the population up there with 25 years of peace and relatively small rabbles won't have any great long-term effect.

O'Neill

Seathrun66 wrote: »

This will pass. It has for most of the population up there with 25 years of peace and relatively small rabbles won't have any great long-term effect.

Hmmm. The troubles have never been properly dealt with imo, no proper reconciliation process so therefore naturally things will explode like a pressure cooker. This will pass on into future generations if not properly dealt with. It's all fine people from outside shouting 'why don't those Nordies just move on' but you can't just sweep it under the carpet.