United Ireland Poll - please vote

Connacht15

Who in their right mind would want to have the imbeciles causing mayhem up there at the moment in their society and pay for the privilege on top of it!


Essentially, the 2 tribes up there were made for each other!

Junkyard Tom

schmittel wrote: »

Yes to UI in North, No in the South, leaving us with an even bigger mess.

Mess is a polite way of putting it - there would be a crisis. We could possibly see Republicans in the north simply declaring a United Ireland.

A serious political schism could emerge in the south. Would those against Unification in the south be allies with Unionists in the north? Would the British right see an opportunity to destabilise us?

We'd do well to highlight that a no vote will have consequences in the south. As for our hardcore partitionists - they're not unlike the Brexiters who believed everything would stay just the same if they got their wish.

We need to tread carefully.

hometruths

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Mess is a polite way of putting it - there would be a crisis. We could possibly see Republicans in the north simply declaring a United Ireland.

A serious political schism could emerge in the south. Would those against Unification in the south be allies with Unionists in the north? Would the British see an opportunity to cause grief for us?

We'd do well to highlight that a no vote will have consequences in the south. As for our hardcore partitionists - they're not unlike the Brexiters who believed everything would stay just the same if they got their wish.

We need to tread carefully.

I don’t think any political party in the south would campaign against a UI publicaly, so am not worried about schisms.

But it would be a chaotic power vacuum in the north.

Junkyard Tom

schmittel wrote: »

But it would be a chaotic power vacuum in the north.

Politically the British and Irish governments would have to be on the same page. The British Gov would have to be forthright with Unionists about fulfilling its commitments to a United Ireland as laid down in the GFA.

Unionism would probably reinvent itself as a movement to keep Ireland as close to Britain as possible, locking in the Common Travel Area, reciprocal east/west political rights, staying out of Shengen etc, there would be a lot for former Unionists to work towards.

drdidlittle

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Mess is a polite way of putting it - there would be a crisis. We could possibly see Republicans in the north simply declaring a United Ireland.

A serious political schism could emerge in the south. Would those against Unification in the south be allies with Unionists in the north? Would the British right see an opportunity to destabilise us?

We'd do well to highlight that a no vote will have consequences in the south. As for our hardcore partitionists - they're not unlike the Brexiters who believed everything would stay just the same if they got their wish.

We need to tread carefully.

And if a yes vote we could see areas of the north refusing to accept Southern 'rule' and the wheel keeps on turning. Except now you'll have the Unionist feeling oppressed claiming civil rights issues. I know you'll say it's all going to be great and we'll look after their needs but seriously.
First marching season in an UI, you think nationalist will let them take their 'traditional' routes?

Junkyard Tom

drdidlittle wrote: »

And if a yes vote we could see areas of the north refusing to accept Southern 'rule' and the wheel keeps on turning.

Which areas? Would they be seeking self-governing enclaves? Maybe being policed by UVF narco-terrorists?

First marching season in an UI, you think nationalist will let them take their 'traditional' routes?

This has all been sorted with the Parades Commission which I'm sure will be retained and maybe even go all-Ireland in the event of a pro-Unification vote.

Bobeagleburger

For a UI to work Orange marches will need to be permitted in the south. I think that's accepted. Same as a flag change. Has to be give and take. Those things are the easy parts compared to the economics imo. That's when it gets messy.

Also, we'll essentially be taking on a population where a good number will not want to join us. NIs mess then becomes Ireland's mess
Add in the added financial cost for all this and you can see how it's a cess pit of an issue.

Junkyard Tom

6 wrote: »

For a UI to work Orange marches will need to be permitted in the south.

Again, they could apply via an all-Ireland Parades Commission that would consult with the local people where the parade was planned for.

You really don't want to recreate the parading issues that plagued the north before 1998.

hometruths

6 wrote: »

For a UI to work Orange marches will need to be permitted in the south. I think that's accepted. Same as a flag change. Has to be give and take. Those things are the easy parts compared to the economics imo. That's when it gets messy.

Also, we'll essentially be taking on a population where a good number will not want to join us. NIs mess then becomes Ireland's mess
Add in the added financial cost for all this and you can see how it's a cess pit of an issue.

I'm not so sure the flegs and marches are the easy bits! The economics simply comes down to the question of do enough people want to share the burden of the extra cost?

My wariness of a UI is the concessions required to placate the hardcore Unionists. I could totally see a scenario whereby Unionist becomes a protected ethnic minority similiar to the Travellers, and instead of sulky races on N roads we are faced with aggressively triumphal marches down O'Connell St and we're told we have to suck it up because that's their culture.

And I suspect somebody will want a Minister for Orangemen and grant the DUP or similiar the right to sit at cabinet, irrespective of votes. I find that idea particularly unpleasant.

I'd be far happier to support a UI in which no special concessions were made. We keep our flag, our anthem and our culture etc because that's the will of the majority of the country including Northern Ireland expressed democratically.

In that sort of scenario I think the Orange Order could march where they wish as most people wouldn't have an issue - the acceptance of it is not forced upon us.

I think we should be very wary in the south of bending over backwards promising the sun, moon and stars to those who hate us just to accelerate the process of a UI. You can be damn sure the hardcore Unionists won't thank us for it.

Bobeagleburger

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Again, they could apply via an all-Ireland Parades Commission that would consult with the local people where the parade was planned for.

You really don't want to recreate the parading issues that plagued the north before 1998.

My bet is it'll be all in place before a UI. Yearly march in a few cities. We might even get a bank holiday out of it.

downcow

6 wrote: »

For a UI to work Orange marches will need to be permitted in the south. I think that's accepted. Same as a flag change. Has to be give and take. Those things are the easy parts compared to the economics imo. That's when it gets messy.

Also, we'll essentially be taking on a population where a good number will not want to join us. NIs mess then becomes Ireland's mess
Add in the added financial cost for all this and you can see how it's a cess pit of an issue.

Someone suggested to me last night that a good flag for a UI would be a white cross on a white background

Junkyard Tom

schmittel wrote: »

I think we should be very wary in the south of bending over backwards promising the sun, moon and stars to those who hate us just to accelerate the process of a UI. You can be damn sure the hardcore Unionists won't thank us for it.

There is ready-to-go infrastructure on all this in the north - just give it an all-Ireland remit.

And I agree, there should be a policy of containment of parading in the northeast. We'd be utter fools to let that lot bring their hate-carnivals out of their traditional tramping grounds.

JimmyVik

Seathrun66 wrote: »

As before I'm happy with paying extra tax to fund reunification if required. Thus no need for cuts to services.

Is everyone with a vote happy to pay more taxes though?
And what would be you limit. An extra 2%, 5% ...?

surveybeacon

I would vote yes.

hometruths

downcow wrote: »

Someone suggested to me last night that a good flag for a UI would be a white cross on a white background

In a UI that flag would be more appropriate as the provincial flag for Ulster. Just remove the red hand, red cross and the crown and bob's your uncle.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

There is ready-to-go infrastructure on all this in the north - just give it an all-Ireland remit.

And I agree, there should be a policy of containment of parading in the northeast. We'd be utter fools to let that lot bring their hate-carnivals out of their traditional tramping grounds.

This is an example of why a UI would be a crazy idea.
I’m curios whether any of you think that Tom is representative of a significant group, who hate our very existence on the island, and if so, would you hazard a guess at how many would take that attitude in a UI.

Interesting though that Tom was the one who would not countenance any devolution etc but yet wants separate laws in the old NI lol

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Interesting though that Tom was the one who would not countenance any devolution etc but yet wants separate laws in the old NI lol

Nope. I would want the laws that stopped unionist wind-up marches from going where they weren't wanted to go all-Ireland.

Love Ulster was a good example of what can go wrong when some moron in Dublin thinks he's being statesmanlike by letting a hate-carnival go ahead without thinking it thorough.

wicklowstevo

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Nope. I would want the laws that stopped unionist wind-up marches from going where they weren't wanted to go all-Ireland.

Love Ulster was a good example of what can go wrong when some moron in Dublin thinks he's being statesmanlike by letting a hate-carnival go ahead without thinking it thorough.

hate to point it out to you tom but it was " republicans " and a load of scum from the Dublin attacking the cops that did all the damage that day .

the loyalists had left Dublin almost before the trouble started

drdidlittle

wicklowstevo wrote: »

hate to point it out to you tom but it was " republicans " and a load of scum from the Dublin attacking the cops that did all the damage that day .

the loyalists had left Dublin almost before the trouble started

And that's where it all beings. Joe blogs from Tallagh thinking he's a hard man throws the first stone at the inaugural Dublin Orange parade in July 2075. Unionist claim their culture being erroded. As for British Army support to protect their rights.... I jest but when it all boils down we will just be switching politics of 2020 with Unionist taking the place of Republicans and vice versa

BonnieSituation

drdidlittle wrote: »

And what benifit is a UI to me?

That's up to you.

What benefit are streetlights in Letterkenny to me?

Up to me to worry about that.

FrancieBrady

drdidlittle wrote: »

And that's where it all beings. Joe blogs from Tallagh thinking he's a hard man throws the first stone at the inaugural Dublin Orange parade in July 2075. Unionist claim their culture being erroded. As for British Army support to protect their rights.... I jest but when it all boils down we will just be switching politics of 2020 with Unionist taking the place of Republicans and vice versa

Will the marchers be proposing to parade a picture of the man who allegedly bombed Dublin resulting in the deaths of 26 people? I think there would still be trouble at a march like that.

Review the work of the Parades Commission who put a stop tp parades being allowed to taunt and triumphalise.

I agree with Tom, a moratorium on marching and parades on both sides as a UI beds in might be a good idea.
Maybe even leave the decision on a new flag for a period too.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

There is ready-to-go infrastructure on all this in the north - just give it an all-Ireland remit.

And I agree, there should be a policy of containment of parading in the northeast. We'd be utter fools to let that lot bring their hate-carnivals out of their traditional tramping grounds.

With two words, the whole argument that you have put forward is completely discredited, as the reality of division is exposed underneath the mask of peace.

Until the people of Northern Ireland can show that they can live together in peace, why should a united Ireland be even considered? The attitude towards unionists demonstrated by that phrase should be part of Northern Ireland let alone any future united Ireland.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Someone suggested to me last night that a good flag for a UI would be a white cross on a white background

It's called the St Patrick's Saltire/Cross.

It's symbolism is well understood, and most nationalists I know (including myself), have very little issue with it as a symbol of Ireland, despite its appropriation after its original provenance as the CoA of the Fitzgerald's.

The church of Ireland, the PSNI, the RCSI, Kildare County Council etc use it without any issue.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

With two words, the whole argument that you have put forward is completely discredited, as the reality of division is exposed underneath the mask of peace.

Until the people of Northern Ireland can show that they can live together in peace, why should a united Ireland be even considered? The attitude towards unionists demonstrated by that phrase should be part of Northern Ireland let alone any future united Ireland.

Here's two words in answer to you - 'They can't - we have 100 years evidence of that.
An artificial state was created with an artificial imbalance and it failed, tragically. The proponents of partition and those who want to maintain it are at fault. Many of them have accepted it, a few haven't.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Here's two words in answer to you - 'They can't - we have 100 years evidence of that.
An artificial state was created with an artificial imbalance and it failed, tragically. The proponents of partition and those who want to maintain it are at fault. Many of them have accepted it, a few haven't.

All states are artificial states, with borders created by people in power drawing lines on a map. Those lines don't stop everyone else in the world living together in peace, it is the will of people that causes the problem.

drdidlittle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Will the marchers be proposing to parade a picture of the man who allegedly bombed Dublin resulting in the deaths of 26 people? I think there would still be trouble at a march like that.

Review the work of the Parades Commission who put a stop tp parades being allowed to taunt and triumphalise.

I agree with Tom, a moratorium on marching and parades on both sides as a UI beds in might be a good idea.
Maybe even leave the decision on a new flag for a period too.

A moratorium to what end.
Religious processions? Guards of honour? Anti water chargers? Funerals during lockdown for example when even that couldn't be enforced

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Here's two words in answer to you - 'They can't - we have 100 years evidence of that.
An artificial state was created with an artificial imbalance and it failed, tragically. The proponents of partition and those who want to maintain it are at fault. Many of them have accepted it, a few haven't.

If they can't live together what difference will unification make?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

All states are artificial states, with borders created by people in power drawing lines on a map. Those lines don't stop everyone else in the world living together in peace, it is the will of people that causes the problem.

They did here. Fact.

And partition unbalanced the south too. Would the RC church have gotten the hold it did on FG and FF had a sizable protestant community been still a part of the country...I don't think so.
Would the repeated recessions and financial meltddowns as a result of greed and political advantage and lack of oversight have happened had a sizeable cohort that is traditionally fiscally conservative still been in the Dáil?

There were all sorts of consequences from partition. It has failed us all.

king_gizzard

blanch152 wrote: »

With two words, the whole argument that you have put forward is completely discredited, as the reality of division is exposed underneath the mask of peace.

Until the people of Northern Ireland can show that they can live together in peace, why should a united Ireland be even considered? The attitude towards unionists demonstrated by that phrase should be part of Northern Ireland let alone any future united Ireland.

You're getting upset about the use of 'that lot' to describe bigots?

blanch152

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's called the St Patrick's Saltire/Cross.

It's symbolism is well understood, and most nationalists I know (including myself), have very little issue with it as a symbol of Ireland, despite its appropriation after its original provenance as the CoA of the Fitzgerald's.

The church of Ireland, the PSNI, the RCSI, Kildare County Council etc use it without any issue.

I don't think any religious symbolism should form part of the flag of a secular state.