United Ireland Poll - please vote

drdidlittle

BonnieSituation wrote: »

That's up to you.

What benefit are streetlights in Letterkenny to me?

Up to me to worry about that.

Might be of benifit when you visit. If not no use.... You highlighted my point. On a day to day basis a UI will be of no benifit to anyone unless all the points that have been raised have been sorted. If not, it will be of a hendrance to all - dealing with all that bigotry and vile hate that exists. Sort that out first before we replace one problem with bigger more wide spread ones

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They did here. Fact.

And partition unbalanced the south too. Would the RC church have gotten the hold it did on FG and FF had a sizable protestant community been still a part of the country...I don't think so.
Would the repeated recessions and financial meltddowns as a result of greed and political advantage and lack of oversight have happened had a sizeable cohort that is traditionally fiscally conservative still been in the Dáil?

There were all sorts of consequences from partition. It has failed us all.

The South is doing fine. It is one of the best countries in the world to live in by any measure.

The main point is that artificial lines drawn on map don't prevent people from living in peace or making a success out of states far smaller and divided than Northern Ireland. The biggest obstacle to peace is in the minds of people.

BonnieSituation

drdidlittle wrote: »

And if a yes vote we could see areas of the north refusing to accept Southern 'rule' and the wheel keeps on turning. Except now you'll have the Unionist feeling oppressed claiming civil rights issues. I know you'll say it's all going to be great and we'll look after their needs but seriously.
First marching season in an UI, you think nationalist will let them take their 'traditional' routes?

Surely Unionists wouldn't resort to reneging on the agreement made in 1998 and re-affirmed many times since?

Partitionists are always quick to tell nationalists that there will have to be give and take when it comes to a UI, but surely partitionists aren't anti-democratic and wouldn't allow a situation develop that sees the aspirations and wishes of this country yet again held to ransom by a minority?

FrancieBrady

drdidlittle wrote: »

A moratorium to what end.
Religious processions? Guards of honour? Anti water chargers? Funerals during lockdown for example when even that couldn't be enforced

Anything that celebrates the divides. Anything that looks like it will triumphalise (Love Ulster should never have happened for that reason...again see how the Parades Commission adjudicates on contentious parades).

Again, look at the work of the Parades Commission, anything can be enforced if the will is there.
Unionists now realise they cannot do what they traditionally did. Taunting and contentiousness is largely reduced to a few morons (the same one's on the streets in the last few weeks) at bonfires wrecking their own living quarters i.e. ultimately hurting themselves. etc.

BonnieSituation

6 wrote: »

For a UI to work Orange marches will need to be permitted in the south. I think that's accepted. Same as a flag change. Has to be give and take. Those things are the easy parts compared to the economics imo. That's when it gets messy.

Also, we'll essentially be taking on a population where a good number will not want to join us. NIs mess then becomes Ireland's mess
Add in the added financial cost for all this and you can see how it's a cess pit of an issue.

They're already permitted in the South. This is a republic, citizens are by right, allowed to assemble freely and to be offered the protection of the state to so assemble.


But the LOI knows better than to antagonise locals with unwelcome parades. They only ever got away with that triumphalism in the Bigoted Statelet.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

The South is doing fine. It is one of the best countries in the world to live in by any measure.

The main point is that artificial lines drawn on map don't prevent people from living in peace or making a success out of states far smaller and divided than Northern Ireland. The biggest obstacle to peace is in the minds of people.

You should do some reading. Your "smaller" qualifier notwithstanding.

Start with "Sykes-Picot" and work from there.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The South is doing fine. It is one of the best countries in the world to live in by any measure.

Eventually the south sorted itself out to be a somewhat better place but still has a way to go. But it was not an easy journey, even the most hardened power swap supporters would not try and pretend that it was.

The main point is that artificial lines drawn on map don't prevent people from living in peace or making a success out of states far smaller and divided than Northern Ireland. The biggest obstacle to peace is in the minds of people.

They did (the artificial lines) here almost from the get go. NI is a failed state by any metric, requiring the input and oversight of an international agreement between two sovereign governments and a unique weighted Executive to function at all and still routinely breaking down into chaos and violence. The 'minds' of people are formed from their environments btw.

drdidlittle

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Surely Unionists wouldn't resort to reneging on the agreement made in 1998 and re-affirmed many times since?

Partitionists are always quick to tell nationalists that there will have to be give and take when it comes to a UI, but surely partitionists aren't anti-democratic and wouldn't allow a situation develop that sees the aspirations and wishes of this country yet again held to ransom by a minority?

But status quo will be broken and if they precieve that their 'rights' are being erroded all bets will be off in my opinion

BonnieSituation

drdidlittle wrote: »

Might be of benifit when you visit. If not no use.... You highlighted my point. On a day to day basis a UI will be of no benifit to anyone unless all the points that have been raised have been sorted. If not, it will be of a hendrance to all - dealing with all that bigotry and vile hate that exists. Sort that out first before we replace one problem with bigger more wide spread ones

I highlighted your point? I've just been reiterating the same thing over and over. Finally you outed your selfish partitionism. I mean it was obvious to most before now, but I'm glad you're owning it now. How adult.

BonnieSituation

drdidlittle wrote: »

But status quo will be broken and if they precieve that their 'rights' are being erroded all bets will be off in my opinion

Their perception?

If they don't get it by now, what else can we do?

blanch152

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Surely Unionists wouldn't resort to reneging on the agreement made in 1998 and re-affirmed many times since?

Partitionists are always quick to tell nationalists that there will have to be give and take when it comes to a UI, but surely partitionists aren't anti-democratic and wouldn't allow a situation develop that sees the aspirations and wishes of this country yet again held to ransom by a minority?

Didn't we have the aspirations and wishes of Northern Ireland held to ransom by a tiny minority for 40 years who tried to bomb the majority to their view and failed?

FrancieBrady

drdidlittle wrote: »

But status quo will be broken and if they precieve that their 'rights' are being erroded all bets will be off in my opinion

What 'rights' will be eroded?

drdidlittle

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I highlighted your point? I've just been reiterating the same thing over and over. Finally you outed your selfish partitionism. I mean it was obvious to most before now, but I'm glad you're owning it now. How adult.

Hold on.... My stance from the start is an independent NI. Functioning government et al. Then let the north decide. UI can then be transitioned in an orderly manner with peace and time to iron out pinch points. I'm all again shoehorn politics

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Didn't we have the aspirations and wishes of Northern Ireland held to ransom by a tiny minority for 40 years who tried to bomb the majority to their view and failed?

Are you now going to use the failure of the state (40 years of conflict/war) to win a debate?

FrancieBrady

drdidlittle wrote: »

Hold on.... My stance from the start is an independent NI. Functioning government et al. Then let the north decide. UI can then be transitioned in an orderly manner with peace and time to iron out pinch points. I'm all again shoehorn politics

It cannot function on it's own...100 years of evidence for you to peruse on that front.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

With two words, the whole argument that you have put forward is completely discredited, as the reality of division is exposed underneath the mask of peace.

'That lot' have caused a lot of misery in the north down through the years. The Parades Commission put an end to it.

Until the people of Northern Ireland can show that they can live together in peace, why should a united Ireland be even considered?

50% +1 vote. We won't allow people like yourself to renegotiate the GFA to add ridiculous 'terms and conditions'.

The attitude towards unionists demonstrated by that phrase should be part of Northern Ireland let alone any future united Ireland.

Yeah show me where I wrote 'Unionists'. 'That lot' refers to the bands who commemorate unionist serial killers and the Orange Order that has unionist serial killers in its ranks.

People outside Ulster would do well to keep that lot well away from their streets.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think any religious symbolism should form part of the flag of a secular state.

Cool. I'm sure you'll get involved in the conversations in the lead up to a referendum.

BonnieSituation

drdidlittle wrote: »

Hold on.... My stance from the start is an independent NI. Functioning government et al. Then let the north decide. UI can then be transitioned in an orderly manner with peace and time to iron out pinch points. I'm all again shoehorn politics

So your solution is something pie in the sky and also not on the table? Something doomed to fail? Something almost nobody, outside of a few Ulster Nationalists and partitionists want?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Eventually the south sorted itself out to be a somewhat better place but still has a way to go. But it was not an easy journey, even the most hardened power swap supporters would not try and pretend that it was.

No society is perfect, but the South is right up there at the top of all rankings. Uniting the island would actually set it back a long way. Your constant sneering about the power swap parties ignores the reality that this is one of the best countries to live in. The hard work was put in by FF and FG to get us to the top of those rankings.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They did (the artificial lines) here almost from the get go. NI is a failed state by any metric, requiring the input and oversight of an international agreement between two sovereign governments and a unique weighted Executive to function at all and still routinely breaking down into chaos and violence. The 'minds' of people are formed from their environments btw.

NI is not a failed state by any metric, look at Eritrea, look at Lebanon and Syria, look at the darlings of SF in Venezuela, and you will get real examples of failed states. The fake narrative of a failed state is just propaganda.

blanch152

drdidlittle wrote: »

Hold on.... My stance from the start is an independent NI. Functioning government et al. Then let the north decide. UI can then be transitioned in an orderly manner with peace and time to iron out pinch points. I'm all again shoehorn politics

An independent Northern Ireland is the stuff of nightmares for Sinn Fein. They need to prolong sectarian division in order to ensure that their headcount approach wins out. A shared island is the future, not a united Ireland.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

No society is perfect, but the South is right up there at the top of all rankings. Uniting the island would actually set it back a long way. Your constant sneering about the power swap parties ignores the reality that this is one of the best countries to live in. The hard work was put in by FF and FG to get us to the top of those rankings.

For some, it is the best. For some.

NI is not a failed state by any metric, look at Eritrea, look at Lebanon and Syria, look at the darlings of SF in Venezuela, and you will get real examples of failed states. The fake narrative of a failed state is just propaganda.

To cling to the idea, you point at other failures. Okie doke.

drdidlittle

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So your solution is something pie in the sky and also not on the table? Something doomed to fail? Something almost nobody, outside of a few Ulster Nationalists and partitionists want?

So says you. I bow to your greater understanding.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

An independent Northern Ireland is the stuff of nightmares for Sinn Fein. They need to prolong sectarian division in order to ensure that their headcount approach wins out. A shared island is the future, not a united Ireland.

Their 'headcount' idea will win out blanch in an independent NI. Dear me!

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

For some, it is the best. For some.







To cling to the idea, you point at other failures. Okie doke.

I show you what a real failed state is, not the pretend propaganda about the North.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I show you what a real failed state is, not the pretend propaganda about the North.

blanch you showed 'other' failed states.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

No society is perfect, but the South is right up there at the top of all rankings. Uniting the island would actually set it back a long way. Your constant sneering about the power swap parties ignores the reality that this is one of the best countries to live in. The hard work was put in by FF and FG to get us to the top of those rankings.





NI is not a failed state by any metric, look at Eritrea, look at Lebanon and Syria, look at the darlings of SF in Venezuela, and you will get real examples of failed states. The fake narrative of a failed state is just propaganda.

If it's not a failed state then you should have no issue with reunification in the event of a majority in both jurisdictions deciding that is what they want?

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

An independent Northern Ireland is the stuff of nightmares for Sinn Fein. They need to prolong sectarian division in order to ensure that their headcount approach wins out. A shared island is the future, not a united Ireland.

It's the stuff of nightmares for most of us.
It's the wet dream of partitionists and Ulster Nationalists and the latest "solution" proffered by those that 'other' their fellow citizens.

The one thing that nationalists and unionists can certainly agree on is that they don't want an Independent NI.

It's also not on the table. You're more than welcome to start that process to supercede the GFA with this "solution". As is your right in a democracy and Republic.

Off you go. Let us know when your get some traction.

BonnieSituation

drdidlittle wrote: »

So says you. I bow to your greater understanding.

You think an independent NI is a solution and plausible.

It doesn't take much extrapolation from there to see what level your understanding is at.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's the stuff of nightmares for most of us.
It's the wet dream of partitionists and Ulster Nationalists and the latest "solution" proffered by those that 'other' their fellow citizens.

The one thing that nationalists and unionists can certainly agree on is that they don't want an Independent NI.

It's also not on the table. You're more than welcome to start that process to supercede the GFA with this "solution". As is your right in a democracy and Republic.

Off you go. Let us know when your get some traction.

The continuation of Partition has no political party support here, and neither has an independent NI.

Junkyard Tom

The forced independent NI thing is just an expression of unbridled hatred. It's like saying to someone in an abusive marriage looking to end it 'no actually we're going to put you on a desert island with your abusive spouse and when you've learned to love again we might let you off'

Pure hate.

Call it what it is.