United Ireland Poll - please vote

FrancieBrady

drdidlittle wrote: »

If being an important word there

It was always 'if'.

BonnieSituation

drdidlittle wrote: »

Remember we gave up our claim to NI. So where are the preconditions in law for an UI?

Ah cmon now. You can't be that wilfully ignorant?

Why engage on a matter you're so clearly ill-equipped for?

Junkyard Tom

tom1ie wrote: »

How about we start a new poll that asks do you want a UI even though it may mean tax increases and/or service cuts, but also may lead to increased wealth, maybe, in years to come, possibly.

Oh, oh can I add a question?

Q. Do you understand there will be consequences for a no vote?

tom1ie

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Oh, oh can I add a question?

Q. Do you understand there will be consequences for a no vote?

It’s a public forum, work away chief.

What will be the consequences?

tom1ie

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ah cmon now. You can't be that wilfully ignorant?

Why engage on a matter you're so clearly ill-equipped for?

Why insult the poster? No need.

FrancieBrady

tom1ie wrote: »

How about we start a new poll that asks do you want a UI even though it may mean tax increases and/or service cuts, but also may lead to increased wealth, maybe, in years to come, possibly.

Seems to be the way at the minute - don't get the answer you want, try again with leading questions.

tom1ie

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Seems to be the way at the minute - don't get the answer you want, try again with leading questions.

That’s the question I’ve been asking since I first asked a question on here francie.
Not sure people would be so inclined to vote yes to a UI if there was a financial implication to their wages or a cut to their services.

BonnieSituation

tom1ie wrote: »

Why insult the poster? No need.

How was it insulting?

They're as equipped to talk about NI as evidenced by that ignorant post, as you are about taxation and funding the State as demonstrated by your own constant bleating about taxes.

drdidlittle

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ah cmon now. You can't be that wilfully ignorant?

Why engage on a matter you're so clearly ill-equipped for?

As stated in the GFA..... If. We gave up our claim in our constitution. You are so assertive that you will get a pass on both sides of the border. As Francie stated..... There is always an if.
Stay with me here.
ROI relasises that there will be hardship and cost and votes no. What then? Riots on the streets? Civil war? 1920 all over again. Better go slowly and methodology than jump in with both feet.

BonnieSituation

drdidlittle wrote: »

As stated in the GFA..... If. We gave up our claim in our constitution. You are so assertive that you will get a pass on both sides of the border. As Francie stated..... There is always an if.
Stay with me here.
ROI relasises that there will be hardship and cost and votes no. What then? Riots on the streets? Civil war? 1920 all over again. Better go slowly and methodology than jump in with both feet.

I have no idea what you're trying to say or point out here.

---

We gave up our claim and replaced it with an aspiration on foot of the legal mechanisms to bring about a UI being agreed in the GFA.

FrancieBrady

drdidlittle wrote: »

As stated in the GFA..... If. We gave up our claim in our constitution. You are so assertive that you will get a pass on both sides of the border. As Francie stated..... There is always an if.
Stay with me here.
ROI relasises that there will be hardship and cost and votes no. What then? Riots on the streets? Civil war? 1920 all over again. Better go slowly and methodology than jump in with both feet.

Our 'claim' was never going to achieve a UI unless we did it by force.

The removal of the claim made little to no difference in reality.

tom1ie

BonnieSituation wrote: »

How was it insulting?

They're as equipped to talk about NI as evidenced by that ignorant post, as you are about taxation and funding the State as demonstrated by your own constant bleating about taxes.

Yes. My bleating about taxes. I would not be happy to pay more to have a UI as I’m fairly sure most people wouldn’t either if they were furnished with this information, which you either know full well and are choosing to ignore or are just ill equipped to talk about economy’s.

VinLieger

tom1ie wrote: »

That’s the question I’ve been asking since I first asked a question on here francie.
Not sure people would be so inclined to vote yes to a UI if there was a financial implication to their wages or a cut to their services.

Theres already polling showing that any question of Tax increases reduces the polling for those in favour of a UI from 60%+ to around 30% with 48% against and the rest undecided.

BonnieSituation

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes. My bleating about taxes. I would not be happy to pay more to have a UI as I’m fairly sure most people wouldn’t either if they were furnished with this information, which you either know full well and are choosing to ignore or are just ill equipped to talk about economy’s.

Is there another side to this record? We went through this yesterday.

Others have engaged with you for a while previously.

What more needs to be said to you?

FrancieBrady

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes. My bleating about taxes. I would not be happy to pay more to have a UI as I’m fairly sure most people wouldn’t either if they were furnished with this information, which you either know full well and are choosing to ignore or are just ill equipped to talk about economy’s.

And I am not happy about my taxes being used for 17 pedestrianised streets in COrk and public lighting in Letterkenny....SO WHAT?

Vote against a UI in that case. It is your preordained right to do so. But because you don't want to pay for it that does not for a second mean it won't happen if a majority want it to.

tom1ie

VinLieger wrote: »

Theres already polling showing that any question of Tax increases reduces the polling for those in favour of a UI from 60%+ to around 30% with 48% against and the rest undecided.

This pretty much confirms what I’m saying.
Maybe bonnie could educate himself/ herself on this subject or maybe he/she is just ill equipped to understand this point?

tom1ie

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And I am not happy about my taxes being used for 17 pedestrianised streets in COrk and public lighting in Letterkenny....SO WHAT?

Vote against a UI in that case. It is your preordained right to do so. But because you don't want to pay for it that does not for a second mean it won't happen if a majority want it to.

Which they don’t if they are to be taxed more.

Fionn1952

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes. My bleating about taxes. I would not be happy to pay more to have a UI as I’m fairly sure most people wouldn’t either if they were furnished with this information, which you either know full well and are choosing to ignore or are just ill equipped to talk about economy’s.

It's the constant treatment of national budgets as if they're the same as household budgets that betrays many as ill equipped to talk about economies.

I don't suggest for a second that there aren't economic hurdles to overcome, but it is quite telling when some try and extrapolate the very simple idea of a household budget to that of a national economy; it falls apart very rapidly with even the most rudimentary study of economics though.

tom1ie

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Is there another side to this record? We went through this yesterday.

Others have engaged with you for a while previously.

What more needs to be said to you?

Something that possibly makes sense other than your nonsense magic money tree.
Your tone is very insulting. Change it please.

FrancieBrady

VinLieger wrote: »

Theres already polling showing that any question of Tax increases reduces the polling for those in favour of a UI from 60%+ to around 30% with 48% against and the rest undecided.

Yes, before Brexit and before anyone has proposed a UI as an investment in a better future for all. Which is how it will be proposed by the government and all the opposition.
Brexit alone has thrown the votes of many Unionists in to doubt such a gamecharger is it. If the UK insist, as they seem to be, on diverging further from the EU that makes the case for a UI back in the EU even stronger as further divergence will cost the Irish taxpayer.

Chips Lovell

Its not just cost in terms of additional taxation. There's also the question of whether people are willing to bear the political costs.

Any union with NI would involve a complete reorganization of the state, with a new constitution, new flag etc.

Both communities in the North will want some kind of guaranteed representation, which means something like a greatly devolved Northern Ireland with a continuation of regional government or some kind of national power-sharing arrangement between the three communities, a Stormont for the island of Ireland.

It's hard to gauge how much public support there would be until all of these are fully fleshed out.

VinLieger

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, before Brexit and before anyone has proposed a UI as an investment in a better future for all. Which is how it will be proposed by the government and all the opposition.
Brexit alone has thrown the votes of many Unionists in to doubt such a gamecharger is it. If the UK insist, as they seem to be, on diverging further from the EU that makes the case for a UI back in the EU even stronger as further divergence will cost the Irish taxpayer.

Will it cost as much as a UI though? We don't know and you don't know, also the polling im talking about was done in 2019 so technically not before Brexit but yes before any effects were felt.

Until we get another simlar poll there is no way you can say anything for sure about how peoples votes have changed all we have is the data from the 2019 poll that showed in the case of a tax increase popularity for a UI in the south drops from 60% to 30%

Has a UI not always been proposed as an investment in a better future for all?

VinLieger

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Its not just cost in terms of additional taxation. There's also the question of whether people are willing to bear the political costs.

Any union with NI would involve a complete reorganization of the state, with a new constitution, new flag etc.

Both communities in the North will want some kind of guaranteed representation, which means something like a greatly devolved Northern Ireland with a continuation of regional government or some kind of national power-sharing arrangement between the three communities, a Stormont for the island of Ireland.

It's hard to gauge how much public support there would be until all of these are fully fleshed out.

Indeed and i would vote No until i knew the answers to all these kinds of questions otherwise we would just be walking into a brexitesque fiasco

tom1ie

Fionn1952 wrote: »

It's the constant treatment of national budgets as if they're the same as household budgets that betrays many as ill equipped to talk about economies.

I don't suggest for a second that there aren't economic hurdles to overcome, but it is quite telling when some try and extrapolate the very simple idea of a household budget to that of a national economy; it falls apart very rapidly with even the most rudimentary study of economics though.

Agreed also the same when posters ignore the fact that NI gets billions from the UK to keep everything running and somehow gloss over the fact that a UI would have to pick up this tab either through taxation or service cuts.
The idea that economies can endlessly take on debt after debt while ignoring the dangers of historically low interest rates is a dangerous one.

FrancieBrady

VinLieger wrote: »

Will it cost as much as a UI though? We don't know and you don't know, also the polling im talking about was done in 2019 so technically not before Brexit but yes before any effects were felt.

Until we get another simlar poll there is no way you can say anything for sure about how peoples votes have changed all we have is the data from the 2019 poll that showed in the case of a tax increase popularity for a UI in the south drops from 60% to 30%

Has a UI not always been proposed as an investment in a better future for all?

Where is that 'poll'? I was referencing the 2015 one.

VinLieger

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where is that 'poll'? I was referencing the 2015 one.

Your right apologies i was confused by another poll i read, those results are from 2015 so yes prior to any real brexit discussions.


I believe my other point still stands though that we cannot say anything for sure until we have another similar poll.

Seathrun66

VinLieger wrote: »

Theres already polling showing that any question of Tax increases reduces the polling for those in favour of a UI from 60%+ to around 30% with 48% against and the rest undecided.

The small poll (1,000) from a pre-Brexit 2015?

And yet polls consistently show a strong vote in the Republic for reunification. Are you saying that voters are unaware of the ramifications of a UI and give their preference in ignorance?

FrancieBrady

VinLieger wrote: »

Your right apologies i was confused by another poll i read, those results are from 2015 so yes prior to any real brexit discussions.


I believe my other point still stands though that we cannot say anything for sure until we have another similar poll.

I think we'd be better having a full discussion of all the issues, pro's and con's and then have a democratic poll.

Are Irish people not entitled to that after 100 years of a failed experiment?

VinLieger

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think we'd be better having a full discussion of all the issues, pro's and con's and then have a democratic poll.

Are Irish people not entitled to that after 100 years of a failed experiment?

Im just talking about another similar opinion poll to gauge where people are at, its been 6 years and like you pointed out Brexit has upended everything so before any discussion is had i think we need to know where peoples concerns are so answers to those concerns can be given and then discussed further.

tom1ie

Seathrun66 wrote: »

The small poll (1,000) from a pre-Brexit 2015?

And yet polls consistently show a strong vote in the Republic for reunification. Are you saying that voters are unaware of the ramifications of a UI and give their preference in ignorance?

Maybe they are unaware they will suffer a tax increase, lose the NHS, have larger primary school classes etc etc.