United Ireland Poll - please vote

hometruths

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Michael Martin and Leo Varadkar need to be careful with their Unity Unit about promising things that cannot be delivered. Unionists, just like the rest of us may have to swallow hard too.
It isn't nor shouldn't be appeasement for the sake of it. If a rational reason is put forward to retain the flag then Unionists will have to accept that, just as, if a rational reason is put forward to join the Commonwealth, people like me, wholly against that, will have to accept it.
It's a two way street in a new UI.

Fair points, but as far as I can see, the only reasons given thus far to give up our flag, is appeasement for the sake of it.

hometruths

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Rejoining the Commonwealth would be too much for many, myself included, to stomach. I'd perceive it as an acceptance of the wrongs of historical colonialism and connect us in some ways to a nation that, post-Brexit, has shown little interest in working alongside others.

Agreed. And this is why I’d prefer to stand firm on pretty much everything. Once you’ve agreed to a new flag, what’s next on the list? Pretty soon we’re agreeing to join the Commonwealth, and what next etc etc.

Hamsterchops

schmittel wrote: »

And this is why I’d prefer to stand firm on pretty much everything. Once you’ve agreed to a new flag, what’s next on the list? Pretty soon we’re agreeing to join the Commonwealth, and what next etc etc.

Is there anything you can offer them?

hometruths

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Is there anything you can offer them?

A welcome with open arms the same we do all the other brits who live in Ireland.

And a chance to live in a country that might actually care about sorting their problems out, rather than the current mess they’re saddled with.

What more do they need?

Junkyard Tom

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Is there anything you can offer them?

A modern democratic, liberal democracy, that consistently ranks in the top tier of countries for quality of life.

It's a bit weird how nobody seems to consider those in the north who'll vote for a United Ireland.

We will not let people who never wanted to get on the bus dictate its destination.

drdidlittle

Sorry to bring up old ground but this talk of a new Ireland, can you imagine the cost of that. Bad enough taking on the Billions of the cost of NI, the cost of intregration but also cost to rebrand EireNua. Uniforms, Computer systems, Letter heads to pick a few very simple ones

Far from impossible to do but eye watering expensive

VinLieger

drdidlittle wrote: »

Sorry to bring up old ground but this talk of a new Ireland, can you imagine the cost of that. Bad enough taking on the Billions of the cost of NI, the cost of intregration but also cost to rebrand EireNua. Uniforms, Computer systems, Letter heads to pick a few very simple ones

Far from impossible to do but eye watering expensive

No you see were not allowed point out these or any potential costs and anyone concerned about them is just selfish apparently

FrancieBrady

VinLieger wrote: »

No you see were not allowed point out these or any potential costs and anyone concerned about them is just selfish apparently

Who is 'not allowing you'?

Very dogmatic not to enter discussion on these things. Why do you think you can say what you want and not have it answered?

'VinLieger has spoken, all hail VinLeiger', am I doing it right?

Triangle

VinLieger wrote: »

No you see were not allowed point out these or any potential costs and anyone concerned about them is just selfish apparently

Or get labeled a partitionists instead of an Irish person.

*yes I just opened that can of worms again


Edit: mostly done tongue in cheek, except for my dislike for labels like partitionist

VinLieger

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who is 'not allowing you'?

Very dogmatic not to enter discussion on these things. Why do you think you can say what you want and not have it answered?

'VinLieger has spoken, all hail VinLeiger', am I doing it right?

LOL multiple times in this thread and the others that have existed before any talk of taxes increased or costs gets dismissed and ignored by yourself and the other UI fanatics for who the ends seem to justify the means no matter the costs

VinLieger

Triangle wrote: »

Or get labeled a partitionists instead of an Irish person.

*yes I just opened that can of worms again

Or claim asking any question about taxes in a poll is loaded even though it is asked impartially both ways

BonnieSituation

Seathrun66 wrote: »

I don't think so either but it's what favours SF & the DUP in the North and they may fight for its retention or national use throughout the new state. Unlikely to succeed as you say. But this, our health service, national housing policy, civil service, environmental policy, social welfare policy and others to me are greatly more significant than flags and anthems.

It's not remotely worth a discussion. FPTP won't be instituted for Dàil or any elections in this State either now, in the future or on reunification. We can just park that.

drdidlittle

VinLieger wrote: »

No you see were not allowed point out these or any potential costs and anyone concerned about them is just selfish apparently

See post above ^^^^^^

BonnieSituation

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Is there anything you can offer them?

What can they offer us?

Your attitude towards Unionism is a bit embarrassing.

Blazer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who is 'not allowing you'?

Very dogmatic not to enter discussion on these things. Why do you think you can say what you want and not have it answered?

'VinLieger has spoken, all hail VinLeiger', am I doing it right?

because you constantly call out this as not important etc. You've done this throughout any thread on this topic for the past few years.

FrancieBrady

VinLieger wrote: »

LOL multiple times in this thread and the others that have existed before any talk of taxes increased or costs gets dismissed and ignored by yourself and the other UI fanatics for who the ends seem to justify the means no matter the costs

That isn't 'not allowing you'.

That is what is called an alternative view. This is a discussion forum after all. It is not a place for people to make dogmatic decrees.

FrancieBrady

Blazer wrote: »

because you constantly call out this as not important etc. You've done this throughout any thread on this topic for the past few years.

Where have I said it is not 'important'?

What I am tired saying in answer to the extra tax question is that we don't know yet and that it is not the only factor people will consider. And I have offered numerous examples of infrastructural and nation building things the people have done since independence here as an example.

The dogma here is from those who claim it will be the ONLY consideration people will make. It is the ONLY consideration people who are selfish/me feiners will make IMO.

Fionn1952

VinLieger wrote: »

Or claim asking any question about taxes in a poll is loaded even though it is asked impartially both ways

It is a loaded question. I've explained why this is in a previous post. Your inability to understand how focusing on only one factor in the suite of factors people will use to make their decision creates bias doesn't make it untrue. As I stated then, the inherent bias of that question doesn't mean the question is without purpose or value, just that folk popping along and throwing it into conversation without context or understanding of that bias are somewhat misguided.

Blazer wrote: »

because you constantly call out this as not important etc. You've done this throughout any thread on this topic for the past few years.

Hold on here.....Francie disagreeing with you about what is important to him is, 'not allowing' people to speak?

Jesus, if people were being prevented from speaking on the potential economic factors associated with a UI, the thread would be half the length.

Francie and every other voter (including you) will be allowed to decide what is and isn't important to them when casting their vote. There is a very amusing hypocrisy in trying to shut down opposition to your own view while claiming YOU'RE being prevented from speaking.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where have I said it is not 'important'?

What I am tired saying in answer to the extra tax question is that we don't know yet and that it is not the only factor people will consider. And I have offered numerous examples of infrastructural and nation building things the people have done since independence here as an example.

The dogma here is from those who claim it will be the ONLY consideration people will make. It is the ONLY consideration people who are selfish/me feiners will make IMO.

Nobody denies you an opinion.

However, the issue is your constant denial of the evidential fact that harmonising social welfare, health, education, social welfare, tax, and all other facets of society in a United Ireland context will cost money and result in either higher taxation or lower social welfare payments, or more likely, a combination of both.

BonnieSituation

drdidlittle wrote: »

Sorry to bring up old ground but this talk of a new Ireland, can you imagine the cost of that. Bad enough taking on the Billions of the cost of NI, the cost of intregration but also cost to rebrand EireNua. Uniforms, Computer systems, Letter heads to pick a few very simple ones

Far from impossible to do but eye watering expensive

Letterheads are the latest partitionist barrier to reunification?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Nobody denies you an opinion.

However, the issue is your constant denial of the evidential fact that harmonising social welfare, health, education, social welfare, tax, and all other facets of society in a United Ireland context will cost money and result in either higher taxation or lower social welfare payments, or more likely, a combination of both.

I haven't denied that anywhere, it is quite possible it will be required I have said a few times.

I have said it will not be the ONLY consideration and reject the bombast and dogma from posters who claim that it will be.

It will be the ONLY consideration of the I'm Alright Jack fraternity and partitionists of that I have no doubt.

If Irish people where all the same we would still be in the stagnancy of early independence, but we are not because we were prepared for sacrifice and investment when our taxes were being well spent. I.E. I don't whinge about 17 pedestrianised streets in Cork coming out of my taxes because I understand how cohesive, developed economy's work to better things for all.

drdidlittle

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Letterheads are the latest partitionist barrier to reunification?

You see this is the kind of Responce was mentioned in posts above. I'm showing you the detail that will add to costs. For example if I was to ask you 4 years ago how much would it cost to build a children's hospital the average answer would probably be 500 million. Now look at the cost. Flippant Responce to distract from the spirit of what I was pointing out just goes to show its all about distract.. Whataoutry.. Look over here... Anything but answer the point. I know well letterheads won't stop democracy but attacking the oppositions point with mockery isn't very helpful either

Bonnie I find your responce(s) so passive aggressive I laugh.

FrancieBrady

drdidlittle wrote: »

You see this is the kind of Responce was mentioned in posts above. I'm showing you the detail that will add to costs. For example if I was to ask you 4 years ago how much would it cost to build a children's hospital the average answer would probably be 500 million. Now look at the cost. Flippant Responce to distract from the spirit of what I was pointing out just goes to show its all about distract.. Whataoutry.. Look over here... Anything but answer the point. I know well letterheads won't stop democracy but attacking the oppositions point with mockery isn't very helpful either

Bonnie I find your responce(s) so passive aggressive I laugh.

We know there will be costs.

Do you accept that costs can be offset by benefits?

Do you understand that people will consider all of these things?

If you do, what is your point?

Seathrun66

schmittel wrote: »

And will our country be called New Ireland? Or will that be a bit too, how can I put this...Irish... for Unionists?

I don’t see my view as hardball. It’s realistic. If we change the flag and the anthem, what else do we have to change to gain Unionist acceptance? The institutions you mention? What should we change?

There are no shortage of British people who live happily in Ireland and are not offended by our national identity, symbols, culture and institutions. If Unionists can live like theses people in our country, then great. If not, why do we want them as part of our nation?

Already taken. Papua New Guinea have the naming rights.

BonnieSituation

drdidlittle wrote: »

You see this is the kind of Responce was mentioned in posts above. I'm showing you the detail that will add to costs. For example if I was to ask you 4 years ago how much would it cost to build a children's hospital the average answer would probably be 500 million. Now look at the cost. Flippant Responce to distract from the spirit of what I was pointing out just goes to show its all about distract.. Whataoutry.. Look over here... Anything but answer the point. I know well letterheads won't stop democracy but attacking the oppositions point with mockery isn't very helpful either

Bonnie I find your responce(s) so passive aggressive I laugh.

At least you're getting a chuckle.

Do you not find it a bit ridiculous that your arguments against a UI are devolving down to stationery now?



I worked for a council in Dublin and when I started they changed their logo to just show their acronym as the official name was unwieldy as a brand name/logo. We weren't allowed use the old stationery anymore. Were you out on the street protesting that waste?

Societies cost money. But there are benefits to these costs more often than not.

Imagine how much we would save as a State if we sacked every public sector worker?

Seathrun66

schmittel wrote: »

Agreed. And this is why I’d prefer to stand firm on pretty much everything. Once you’ve agreed to a new flag, what’s next on the list? Pretty soon we’re agreeing to join the Commonwealth, and what next etc etc.

So, no compromise, no negotiation with two million people merging with our five? And don't assume that the Nationalist half of that populace want everything we have.

You adopt a 'take it or leave it' attitude and that won't succeed. I'd prefer to welcome people into a new state rather than dictate to them.

Seathrun66

schmittel wrote: »

Fair points, but as far as I can see, the only reasons given thus far to give up our flag, is appeasement for the sake of it.

Have you missed the past five decades, and the inherent symbolism of flags in the North?

Seathrun66

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's not remotely worth a discussion. FPTP won't be instituted for Dàil or any elections in this State either now, in the future or on reunification. We can just park that.

As before I said it was unlikely to happen but are you seriously saying that that won't come up for discussion and the DUP won't be pushing for a it. A party with 29.2% of the vote for the last NI Assembly and 36% in NI in the 2019 UK election returning a disproportionately high number of seats won't want to concede a great deal of their political power to PR. They don't have a strong argument but they'll try anyway and this will be part of the negotiations for reunification.

drdidlittle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We know there will be costs.

Do you accept that costs can be offset by benefits?

Do you understand that people will consider all of these things?

If you do, what is your point?[/quote

No not without knowing the cost and knowing the benifits

Some will some robots won't. Party line won't allow personal thinking or actions for some

Point is no vote until all is defined and that's without looking at the whole sectarian elements
Sort that out first

Seathrun66

VinLieger wrote: »

LOL multiple times in this thread and the others that have existed before any talk of taxes increased or costs gets dismissed and ignored by yourself and the other UI fanatics for who the ends seem to justify the means no matter the costs

Tax is only one consideration for people and we don't know the costings answer yet.

Tax is the overriding consideration for those who put themselves before society and community.