United Ireland Poll - please vote

drdidlittle

BonnieSituation wrote: »

At least you're getting a chuckle.

Do you not find it a bit ridiculous that your arguments against a UI are devolving down to stationery now?



I worked for a council in Dublin and when I started they changed their logo to just show their acronym as the official name was unwieldy as a brand name/logo. We weren't allowed use the old stationery anymore. Were you out on the street protesting that waste?

Societies cost money. But there are benefits to these costs more often than not.

Imagine how much we would save as a State if we sacked every public sector worker?

How much did it cost? Now multiply that by 100's of sections in Council. Then multiply by 100'in Government.

Seathrun66

blanch152 wrote: »

Nobody denies you an opinion.

However, the issue is your constant denial of the evidential fact that harmonising social welfare, health, education, social welfare, tax, and all other facets of society in a United Ireland context will cost money and result in either higher taxation or lower social welfare payments, or more likely, a combination of both.

Are these the things that Germany got wrong? You proclaimed their reunification a failure and we've still to hear why.

As your assessment of Germany is so skewed maybe this augurs well for your assessment of Irish reunification.

Seathrun66

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Letterheads are the latest partitionist barrier to reunification?

Don't forget stamps.

BonnieSituation

Seathrun66 wrote: »

As before I said it was unlikely to happen but are you seriously saying that that won't come up for discussion and the DUP won't be pushing for a it. A party with 29.2% of the vote for the last NI Assembly and 36% in NI in the 2019 UK election returning a disproportionately high number of seats won't want to concede a great deal of their political power to PR. They don't have a strong argument but they'll try anyway and this will be part of the negotiations for reunification.

Yes. I'm saying it won't come up. If it does they can be laughed out of the room.

The rush to be seen to be listening to the fringes leads to normalisation. Look at the world we have today since every dope can stick his oar into most discussions for which they are patently uninformed about.

The DUP have bigots, homophobes and creationists in their ranks. Thank you, but I won't be listening to much of what they have to say wrt voting systems. Especially seeing as outside of Westminster elections, what systems do they use?

So again, leave FPTP consigned to the dump.

BonnieSituation

drdidlittle wrote: »

How much did it cost? Now multiply that by 100's of sections in Council. Then multiply by 100'in Government.

Oh my. I think you're onto something.

Christ above.

BonnieSituation

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Don't forget stamps.

We can just over print the Queen's head with ÉIRE. Will give Unionists lovely warm fuzzies of the olden times of empire.

FrancieBrady

drdidlittle wrote: »

No not without knowing the cost and knowing the benifits

Some will some robots won't. Party line won't allow personal thinking or actions for some

Point is no vote until all is defined and that's without looking at the whole sectarian elements
Sort that out first

All parties will be supporting a UI here.
Partitionism or those not willing to pay has no political voice that I can see. Big hill to climb there not to mention who those opposing will be seen as allying with.

No party supporting a UI are advocating a vote without a plan, in fact one party is calling on planning to begin, immediately. Planning is sensible, as we have seen from Brexit.

Then the undecided get to make their minds up.


P.S. could you take a minute to learn how to use the quote function? I only seen your answer because I was scrolling back to something else.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

We can just over print the Queen's head with ÉIRE. Will give Unionists lovely warm fuzzies of the olden times of empire.

My nearest post box still has the British Crown symbol on it, it was just painted green.
Paint it half red, half green?

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

My nearest post box still has the British Crown symbol on it, it was just painted green.
Paint it half red, half green?

As bad as the remnants of the empire are, Mayo colours are worse.

Seathrun66

BonnieSituation wrote: »

As bad as the remnants of the empire are, Mayo colours are worse.

Fighting talk. Though you have a point.

purplepanda

Defence considerations for a future United Ireland.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/united-ireland-and-nato-5388951-Mar2021/

blanch152

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Are these the things that Germany got wrong? You proclaimed their reunification a failure and we've still to hear why.

As your assessment of Germany is so skewed maybe this augurs well for your assessment of Irish reunification.

https://repository.lboro.ac.uk/articles/educational_resource/The_economic_legacy_of_German_unification/9468086/1

"The purpose of this module is to introduce you to the economic problems associated with German unification and to the broader issues relating to Germany in Europe. With some 82 million inhabitants, Germany is the largest state in the new Europe. It is geographically central and has borders with nine other countries. It is the core economy of the region, of the European Union and of the newly formed Eurozone; it represents 38 percent of total demand within the EU, it is the major trading partner of every other member of the EU and far and away the biggest trading partner of the emerging states of central and Eastern Europe. What happens to the German economy affects every other economy in Europe, directly or indirectly. The current weaknesses of the Eurozone are in no small measure a result of the particular feebleness of Germany’s recent record of growth. One of the major factors contributing to this poor pattern of growth is the economic burden taken on by the Federal Republic in uniting the economies of East and West Germany. It is therefore important to examine Germany’s economic development over the first dozen or so years of unity to gauge both the domestic and international effects of unification"

Read and learn.

blanch152

purplepanda wrote: »

Defence considerations for a future United Ireland.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/united-ireland-and-nato-5388951-Mar2021/

An interesting article.

He may well be right about the strategic importance of Ireland in the coming decades. The opening of sea routes to China along the north coast of Russia are a possibility given the melting in the Arctic.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

https://repository.lboro.ac.uk/articles/educational_resource/The_economic_legacy_of_German_unification/9468086/1

"The purpose of this module is to introduce you to the economic problems associated with German unification and to the broader issues relating to Germany in Europe. With some 82 million inhabitants, Germany is the largest state in the new Europe. It is geographically central and has borders with nine other countries. It is the core economy of the region, of the European Union and of the newly formed Eurozone; it represents 38 percent of total demand within the EU, it is the major trading partner of every other member of the EU and far and away the biggest trading partner of the emerging states of central and Eastern Europe. What happens to the German economy affects every other economy in Europe, directly or indirectly. The current weaknesses of the Eurozone are in no small measure a result of the particular feebleness of Germany’s recent record of growth. One of the major factors contributing to this poor pattern of growth is the economic burden taken on by the Federal Republic in uniting the economies of East and West Germany. It is therefore important to examine Germany’s economic development over the first dozen or so years of unity to gauge both the domestic and international effects of unification"

Read and learn.

It doesn't say there that German Unification has failed.German reunification has stalled the Eurzone, is not the same thing as saying reunification has failed.

The re-integration of a centrally planned socialist failure and turning it into a market economy requires a hell of a lot more than integrating northern and southern Ireland economies.

Easy fingerpointing but a terrible comparison in reality.

We know there are challenges economically but try keep things in perspective?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It doesn't say there that German Unification has failed.German reunification has stalled the Eurzone, is not the same thing as saying reunification has failed.

The re-integration of a centrally planned socialist failure and turning it into a market economy requires a hell of a lot more than integrating northern and southern Ireland economies.

Easy fingerpointing but a terrible comparison in reality.

We know there are challenges economically but try keep things in perspective?

Glad that it is finally agreed that there will be challenges economically. Too many have been in denial over this aspect for a long time.

The two Germanys had been separate for just over 40 years. Ireland has never been a unitary State and two separate jurisdictions have prevailed for 100 years. The challenge should not be underestimated.

Seathrun66

blanch152 wrote: »

https://repository.lboro.ac.uk/articles/educational_resource/The_economic_legacy_of_German_unification/9468086/1

"The purpose of this module is to introduce you to the economic problems associated with German unification and to the broader issues relating to Germany in Europe. With some 82 million inhabitants, Germany is the largest state in the new Europe. It is geographically central and has borders with nine other countries. It is the core economy of the region, of the European Union and of the newly formed Eurozone; it represents 38 percent of total demand within the EU, it is the major trading partner of every other member of the EU and far and away the biggest trading partner of the emerging states of central and Eastern Europe. What happens to the German economy affects every other economy in Europe, directly or indirectly. The current weaknesses of the Eurozone are in no small measure a result of the particular feebleness of Germany’s recent record of growth. One of the major factors contributing to this poor pattern of growth is the economic burden taken on by the Federal Republic in uniting the economies of East and West Germany. It is therefore important to examine Germany’s economic development over the first dozen or so years of unity to gauge both the domestic and international effects of unification"

Read and learn.

An academic paper from 2003. Thirteen years after reunification and referring to a poor pattern of growth for the Euro rather than Germany.

In the following eighteen years are you still positing the failure of the German economy? The fourth strongest economy on the planet and by far the most significant in Europe.

You're onto a loser here. Keep digging if you wish but.....

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It doesn't say there that German Unification has failed.German reunification has stalled the Eurzone, is not the same thing as saying reunification has failed.

The re-integration of a centrally planned socialist failure and turning it into a market economy requires a hell of a lot more than integrating northern and southern Ireland economies.

Easy fingerpointing but a terrible comparison in reality.

We know there are challenges economically but try keep things in perspective?

And yet for all the economic issues raised (in what appears to just be the abstract of a publication), German people in both the former East and West parts both report the highest rates of satisfaction they've recorded, steadily increasing post unification, and the majority of German people consider unification to have been a success, even if not perfect.

Perhaps one would read into that and decide that there must be tangibles beyond how much it costs worth consideration even as we make plans to avoid the economic mistakes made immediately upon reunification of Germany.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Glad that it is finally agreed that there will be challenges economically. Too many have been in denial over this aspect for a long time.

Not me. I have said repeatedly it will be a challenge.

The two Germanys had been separate for just over 40 years. Ireland has never been a unitary State and two separate jurisdictions have prevailed for 100 years. The challenge should not be underestimated.

Just let's cut to the chase here, you are going to ignore the fact that East Germany was a failed socialist state, with large areas of economically stagnant wastelands. It required and requires huge investments to bring it up to spec.

No comparison to northern and southern Ireland. The challenges should not be over estimated either, as they are by those who are anti the idea to begin with.

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

Glad that it is finally agreed that there will be challenges economically. Too many have been in denial over this aspect for a long time.

Like who? Care to point out any examples of people who have said there won't be any economic challenges?

Thinking that economic challenges can be overcome is not the same as thinking they don't exist. People who choose to prioritise other things over base economic growth aren't saying that economic challenges don't exist. As usual though, your arguments perfectly destroy those strawmen that only you seem to know about.

Seathrun66

Fionn1952 wrote: »

And yet for all the economic issues raised (in what appears to just be the abstract of a publication), German people in both the former East and West parts both report the highest rates of satisfaction they've recorded, steadily increasing post unification, and the majority of German people consider unification to have been a success, even if not perfect.

Perhaps one would read into that and decide that there must be tangibles beyond how much it costs worth consideration even as we make plans to avoid the economic mistakes made immediately upon reunification of Germany.

The paragraph is the precis for a study module from eighteen years ago and refers to the Eurozone rather than German growth. I don't think Blanch understands what he's posted.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Like who? Care to point out any examples of people who have said there won't be any economic challenges?

Thinking that economic challenges can be overcome is not the same as thinking they don't exist. People who choose to prioritise other things over base economic growth aren't saying that economic challenges don't exist. As usual though, your arguments perfectly destroy those strawmen that only you seem to know about.

This is another example among plenty of blanch inventing something that was said and arguing against it - mis-representation.

mehico

Agreed.

While the reunification of Germany can be compared in some ways to potential Irish unification, the fact that German reunification involved a western capitalist economy and political system merging with a soviet style planned economy and political system arguably made the economic challenges much greater to overcome, yet they managed it.

Also, German unification happened at an unexpectedly rapid pace, I would be confident that Irish unification would have a transition period to help ease any potential economic difficulties.

Fionn1952

mehico wrote: »

Agreed.

While the reunification of Germany can be compared in some ways to potential Irish unification, the fact that German reunification involved a western capitalist economy and political system merging with a soviet style planned economy and political system arguably made the economic challenges much greater to overcome, yet they managed it.

Also, German unification happened at an unexpectedly rapid pace, I would be confident that Irish unification would have a transition period to help ease any potential economic difficulties.

Nice to see you agree with yourself....not a good look.

Hamsterchops

Northern Ireland is a different place, closer to Scotland in many ways, different vibe to down here, different surnames, different DNA, different tribes, with Scottish influenced accents, a strong Unionist identity & an abrasive edge in many!

The North is different as it is in most countries, look at Britain for example, the North is totally different to the South, and Scotland is different again, yet they are part of the United Kingdom (including NI) and maybe we should acknowledge that, and leave them be instead of constantly prodding them with the "United Ireland" stick .... anyday now folks, just another few years and you'll be ours.

Leave them be I say, and someday if they vote enmass to leave the United Kingdom ( possibly after the Scots leave), then so be it, but in the meantime let's accept their right to remain as part of the UK, and let's accept and respect their different identity, their Ulster Scots identity, the British/Unionist identity too, even their Northern Irish identity needs a mention too for it ain't the same as being just Irish, seeing as it has the prefix Northern.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Northern Ireland is a different place, closer to Scotland in many ways, different vibe to down here, different surnames, different DNA, different tribes, with Scottish influenced accents, a strong Unionist identity & an abrasive edge in many!

The North is different as it is in most countries, look at Britain for example, the North is totally different to the South, and Scotland is different again, yet they are part of the United Kingdom (including NI) and maybe we should acknowledge that, and leave them be instead of constantly prodding them with the "United Ireland" stick .... anyday now folks, just another few years and you'll be ours.

Leave them be I say, and someday if they vote enmass to leave the United Kingdom ( possibly after the Scots leave), then so be it, but in the meantime let's accept their right to remain as part of the UK, and let's accept and respect their different identity, their Ulster Scots identity, the British/Unionist identity too, even their Northern Irish identity needs a mention too for it ain't the same as being just Irish, seeing as it has the prefix Northern.

Their right has been respected. There are also other rights that need addressing.

Fionn1952

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Northern Ireland is a different place, closer to Scotland in many ways, different vibe to down here, different surnames, different DNA, different tribes, with Scottish influenced accents, a strong Unionist identity & an abrasive edge in many!

The North is different as it is in most countries, look at Britain for example, the North is totally different to the South, and Scotland is different again, yet they are part of the United Kingdom (including NI) and maybe we should acknowledge that, and leave them be instead of constantly prodding them with the "United Ireland" stick .... anyday now folks, just another few years and you'll be ours.

Leave them be I say, and someday if they vote enmass to leave the United Kingdom ( possibly after the Scots leave), then so be it, but in the meantime let's accept their right to remain as part of the UK, and let's accept and respect their different identity, their Ulster Scots identity, the British/Unionist identity too, even their Northern Irish identity needs a mention too for it ain't the same as being just Irish, seeing as it has the prefix Northern.

So what's the plan? Just wait, don't prepare at all and scramble around trying to cobble together a plan if and when it happens?! That hasn't worked out so well with Brexit.

Junkyard Tom

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Northern Ireland is a different place, closer to Scotland in many ways, different vibe to down here, different surnames, different DNA, different tribes, with Scottish influenced accents, a strong Unionist identity & an abrasive edge in many!

Unionism is a minority now. You must be thinking of a fantasy north of Ireland that isn't in Ireland at all. There's an awful lot of self-delusion in the unionist mindset.

This was true 100 years ago...

and remains true today. Partition was a anti-democratic and immoral and will be a problem until it ends.

Fr D Maugire

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Unionism is a minority now. You must be thinking of a fantasy north of Ireland that isn't in Ireland at all. There's an awful lot of self-delusion in the unionist mindset.

This was true 100 years ago...

and remains true today. Partition was a anti-democratic and immoral and will be a problem until it ends.

Yeah and that is what makes me laugh when Downcow claims they believe in democracy.
Imagine if Scotland votes for independence, but Edinburgh
votes against independence. Will Edinburgh get to remain part of Britain or is there anyone who believe that is in any way logical. When a Country has a vote, it is the whole country, not a portion of that country.

People seem to ignore that 75% of people voted for politicians in Ireland in the 1918 election to take Ireland out of the Union. Far higher than the Brexit vote yet the Unionists still got to create a state in which their majority was something like 65% to 35% so in real terms the Nationalist population of NI was higher than the Unionist Population of Ireland. Unionism and democracy are simply not compatible unless it suits them.

downcow

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Yeah and that is what makes me laugh when Downcow claims they believe in democracy.
Imagine if Scotland votes for independence, but Edinburgh
votes against independence. Will Edinburgh get to remain part of Britain or is there anyone who believe that is in any way logical. When a Country has a vote, it is the whole country, not a portion of that country.

People seem to ignore that 75% of people voted for politicians in Ireland in the 1918 election to take Ireland out of the Union. Far higher than the Brexit vote yet the Unionists still got to create a state in which their majority was something like 65% to 35% so in real terms the Nationalist population of NI was higher than the Unionist Population of Ireland. Unionism and democracy are simply not compatible unless it suits them.

My Irish history is not good. But I understand it was your Parliament who democratically decided that Stormont should decide whether ni stays in U.K. or leaves along with the 26 counties. Stormont then took up that offer and democratically decided to stay in uk.
Is this correct? I would love to know for sure. Can anyone help me?

Hamsterchops

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Unionism is a minority now. You must be thinking of a fantasy north of Ireland that isn't in Ireland at all. There's an awful lot of self-delusion in the unionist mindset.

This was true 100 years ago... .

That's why I mentioned the Northern Irish identity, which seems to be a newish thing, possibly with in-built Unionist leanings? Maybe not?

If a border poll was called what way would the Northern Irish vote? They might vote for a United Ireland, but then they'd lose their Northern Irish Identity wouldn't they?

Me and my ideas