United Ireland Poll - please vote

J Mysterio

downcow wrote: »

It was about us escaping being part of a new independent country and staying in The union.

I agree with you that we can end up in a privileged position, but we have watched the crocodiles for years and are now just being crocodiles ourselves to ensure we maximise that privilege and thereby ensure an increased majority in ni wish to maintain our current position

When I mentioned a priviliged position, I meant for the whole of NI, not just for Unionists. This is always it though: Unionists demand for control and the final say and maintaining their privilege in NI, through collusion, gerrymandering and whatever else, to the detriment of other communities.

While some of those issues were finally resolved through the GFA and over time, there is a lot that unionists could do to placate the 'crocodiles'. e.g. allowing for Irish language. But everything must be a quid pro quo. Irish language must be equated to something else e.g. right to march through neighbourhoods where people would prefer you do not. There is no generosity of spirit.

In an effort to reset or regain 'the upper hand' through Brexit (e.g. hoping a North/ South border could be brought about), Unionism has made a total mess of their situation, and the insecurity is now palpable.

Unionists can now choose to hurry to constructively implement the protocol, and benefit citizens of NI, or they can continue to obstruct, obfusticate, and complain and thus further the arguments for a united ireland.

I recall a few months ago hearing many unionist voices who had started to consider how it would be for them in a United Ireland. Unionist leadership has started that process in peoples minds.

mehico

Maybe this has been discussed on here already but not sure how much focus has been placed on how any Border Poll would take place.

The Working Group on Unification Referendums established by the Constitution Unit of University College London have carried out recent research around this topic and published their interim report last November.

One of the interesting parts of the report suggests that it would be up to the Irish Government to develop proposals for the form of a united Ireland and the report also outlines examples of the different approaches that could be taken of when to hold a referendum, either early in the process before the details of a united Ireland have been worked out or at a later time once a model of a united Ireland has been developed.

The interim report is 250 plus pages but the link below has a summary for anyone interested:

http://https://constitution-unit.com/2020/11/26/referendums-on-irish-unification-how-would-they-best-be-designed-and-conducted/

FrancieBrady

mehico wrote: »

Maybe this has been discussed on here already but not sure how much focus has been placed on how any Border Poll would take place.

The Working Group on Unification Referendums established by the Constitution Unit of University College London have carried out recent research around this topic and published their interim report last November.

One of the interesting parts of the report suggests that it would be up to the Irish Government to develop proposals for the form of a united Ireland and the report also outlines examples of the different approaches that could be taken of when to hold a referendum, either early in the process before the details of a united Ireland have been worked out or at a later time once a model of a united Ireland has been developed.

The interim report is 250 plus pages but the link below has a summary for anyone interested:

http://https://constitution-unit.com/2020/11/26/referendums-on-irish-unification-how-would-they-best-be-designed-and-conducted/

Indeed, the Irish government (whosoever it may be) will be the proposers of a UI and should not be waiting on the British to give a nod of approval but should be planning for this as per our constitutional aspiration.

Cheers for the link, will have a good read of that later.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Indeed, the Irish government (whosoever it may be) will be the proposers of a UI and should not be waiting on the British to give a nod of approval but should be planning for this as per our constitutional aspiration.

Cheers for the link, will have a good read of that later.

Interesting article, didn't realize that concurrent only means held on the same terms rather than on the same day.

Also, they believe that under Irish constitutional law we would have to have a referendum too.

drdidlittle

So assuming the the poll is going to happen what will be the process? Poll first then work out the detail. Or two, framework of proposals on main points with agreed upon set of items in new constitution.

FrancieBrady

drdidlittle wrote: »

So assuming the the poll is going to happen what will be the process? Poll first then work out the detail. Or two, framework of proposals on main points with agreed upon set of items in new constitution.

Yes, I think a framework document would be the wisest route.

The questin could then be framed as the question on agreement to the GFA was framed - as a constitutional wording change.

Fionn1952

drdidlittle wrote: »

So assuming the the poll is going to happen what will be the process? Poll first then work out the detail. Or two, framework of proposals on main points with agreed upon set of items in new constitution.

One would very much hope for the latter given the clusterf*ck that Brexit has demonstrated as the outcome of jumping in with two feet totally blind.

J Mysterio

Fionn1952 wrote: »

One would very much hope for the latter given the clusterf*ck that Brexit has demonstrated as the outcome of jumping in with two feet totally blind.

We tend to referendums properly in this country i.e. with a referendum commission that clearly and factually sets out the implications for either option, and sends this to every person in the country, while also establishing a website and advertising campaign.

In other words, the opposite of the appalling mess that led to - and followed - the Brexit referendum.

Fionn1952

J Mysterio wrote: »

We tend to referendums properly in this country i.e. with a referendum commission that clearly and factually sets out the implications for either option, and sends this to every person in the country, while also establishing a website and advertising campaign.

In other words, the opposite of the appalling mess that led to - and followed - the Brexit referendum.

Yes thankfully, however that legislation doesn't apply in NI, so from a legal perspective an idiotic Brexit style referendum could go ahead there to the best of my knowledge. I'd hope to see our level of referenda robustness applied in the North in this instance.

BonnieSituation

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Yes thankfully, however that legislation doesn't apply in NI, so from a legal perspective an idiotic Brexit style referendum could go ahead there to the best of my knowledge. I'd hope to see our level of referenda robustness applied in the North in this instance.

It was in 1998. No reason it won't be again. Then again... Unionists

Fionn1952

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It was in 1998. No reason it won't be again. Then again... Unionists

I hope so, but I still think it is important to note the legal requirement for that to be so here, versus hoping and depending on the goodwill of a British government to ensure it is so in the North.

downcow

J Mysterio wrote: »

When I mentioned a priviliged position, I meant for the whole of NI, not just for Unionists. This is always it though: Unionists demand for control and the final say and maintaining their privilege in NI, through collusion, gerrymandering and whatever else, to the detriment of other communities.

While some of those issues were finally resolved through the GFA and over time, there is a lot that unionists could do to placate the 'crocodiles'. e.g. allowing for Irish language. But everything must be a quid pro quo. Irish language must be equated to something else e.g. right to march through neighbourhoods where people would prefer you do not. There is no generosity of spirit.

In an effort to reset or regain 'the upper hand' through Brexit (e.g. hoping a North/ South border could be brought about), Unionism has made a total mess of their situation, and the insecurity is now palpable.

Unionists can now choose to hurry to constructively implement the protocol, and benefit citizens of NI, or they can continue to obstruct, obfusticate, and complain and thus further the arguments for a united ireland.

I recall a few months ago hearing many unionist voices who had started to consider how it would be for them in a United Ireland. Unionist leadership has started that process in peoples minds.

I agree completely about benifit for everyone in ni which I think you know is what I was saying.
As for quid pro quo. Those two issues are very closely linked. Unionists have exactly the same issues about Irish language road signs where they are not wanted as nationalists have with loyalists bands where they are not wanted.
By the way can you tell me where there are parades which are not wanted. Francie, who is hardly on my side, is clear that there are now no parades where they are not wanted - may republicans can catch up with their road signs

downcow

J Mysterio wrote: »

We tend to referendums properly in this country i.e. with a referendum commission that clearly and factually sets out the implications for either option, and sends this to every person in the country, while also establishing a website and advertising campaign.

In other words, the opposite of the appalling mess that led to - and followed - the Brexit referendum.

And do you not also have a system which has another referendum if the first one gives the wrong result?

Monkey arris

downcow wrote: »

I agree completely about benifit for everyone in ni which I think you know is what I was saying.
As for quid pro quo. Those two issues are very closely linked. Unionists have exactly the same issues about Irish language road signs where they are not wanted as nationalists have with loyalists bands where they are not wanted.
By the way can you tell me where there are parades which are not wanted. Francie, who is hardly on my side, is clear that there are now no parades where they are not wanted - may republicans can catch up with their road signs

Any Irish language road signs taking a piss in doorways or goading unionists?
One is a practical sign giving direction in two languages. The other, groups of people celebrating the battle of the Boyne when they fought their neigbours. The anti social behaviour was stopped. Can you clarify the similarities between these people and a road sign, beyond basic tit for tat?
All goods sold in the U.S. must include Spanish literature. I don't even see the Republican's fighting that, although there likely are a few similarly minded.

Junkyard Tom

Here's the real issue, Unionism is a minority and has no magic veto on what it doesn't like.

The IRA has gone. What unionism fears now is democracy. The dread is existential. The Good Friday agreement enables the secretary of state to initiate a border poll. Time to play the Orange card, the one that unites Protestants in a paranoid huddle.

theguardian.com

What I'm interested in is what percentage of Unionists understand the NI Protocol is the least worst option for the north of Ireland.

Unionist screaming-and-kicking is getting the headlines but where will unionist votes go in the next elections? Will Alliance vacuum up the Unionist realist/liberal/pro-EU vote further isolating the loudmouths like Paisley and Wilson?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

And do you not also have a system which has another referendum if the first one gives the wrong result?

Amazing how many tiny snippets you seem to know about a country you claim to know next to nothing about.....and always precisely the amount of information that would allow you to reach a completely incorrect conclusion, no more, no less. It's quite impressive.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I agree completely about benifit for everyone in ni which I think you know is what I was saying.
As for quid pro quo. Those two issues are very closely linked. Unionists have exactly the same issues about Irish language road signs where they are not wanted as nationalists have with loyalists bands where they are not wanted.
By the way can you tell me where there are parades which are not wanted. Francie, who is hardly on my side, is clear that there are now no parades where they are not wanted - may republicans can catch up with their road signs

Unionists are still attempting to have parades where they are not wanted and refusing to engage with the Parades Commission - deriding and denigrating the very commission that has made you look good against your will.

Stop trying to make a silk purse for yourselves. Your behaviour as a community in attempts to normalise has and continues to be abysmal.

Marco23d

There's far more partitionists on boards than Imagined, there was a poll on Joe.ie recently with 5,000 votes showing more than 90% of people wanting a United Ireland.

All conflict on this

Bobeagleburger

Marco23d wrote: »

There's far more partitionists on boards than Imagined, there was a poll on Joe.ie recently with 5,000 votes showing more than 90% of people wanting a United Ireland.

All conflict on this

Joe.ie is your answer. Probably a lot of younger voters on there, who don't have as much to lose by taking on the basket case that is NI.

Marco23d

All conflict on this island for the last 800 years has been somewhat down to the British presence, the founders of the state we have now even went to war with eachother over it.

Once we give up on a free and independent Ireland controlled by the people of this island that is when the resistance has been finally defeated and they have successfully colonised us forever.

One thing that has made it very apparent recently that we are not "free" is the discussion about the border, the people of this island north or south have next to no say at all in the matter even though it will have massive effect on us all we are the mercy of HM the Queen, Boris Johnson and the rest of the Tories.

Junkyard Tom

6 wrote: »

Joe.ie is your answer. Probably a lot of younger voters on there, who don't have as much to lose by taking on the basket case that is NI.

The minute the north votes for a UI it becomes our 'problem' in perpetuity. No level of magical thinking will wish that away.

The weaving together of Ireland economically, socially, and psychologically, is irreversible.

McMurphy

6 wrote: »

Joe.ie is your answer. Probably a lot of younger voters on there, who don't have as much to lose by taking on the basket case that is NI.

Young voters - with their whole lives ahead of them, "don't have as much to lose" as who

Older people? Middle aged?

A younger person has the rest of their lives to live compared with a pensioner (for example) who's already lived the vast majority of theirs?

What you posted makes no sense whatsoever.

FrancieBrady

Marco23d wrote: »

All conflict on this island for the last 800 years has been somewhat down to the British presence, the founders of the state we have now even went to war with eachother over it.

Once we give up on a free and independent Ireland controlled by the people of this island that is when the resistance has been finally defeated and they have successfully colonised us forever.

One thing that has made it very apparent recently that we are not "free" is the discussion about the border, the people of this island north or south have next to no say at all in the matter even though it will have massive effect on us all we are the mercy of HM the Queen, Boris Johnson and the rest of the Tories.

Whist now! They don't like to be reminded that they were once as invested as the most fervent Shinner in getting rid of the British government from this island.
Were as bad than the PIRA apparently.

Bobeagleburger

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The minute the north votes for a UI it becomes our 'problem' in perpetuity. No level of magical thinking will wish that away.

The weaving together of Ireland economically, socially, and psychologically, is irreversible.

Until then it's not our problem. That's surely understood by everyone.

When that'll be is anyone's guess. I'll stick with 2050

Chips Lovell

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The minute the north votes for a UI it becomes our 'problem' in perpetuity. No level of magical thinking will wish that away.

It only becomes our problem if we vote for it too.

FrancieBrady

6 wrote: »

Until then it's not our problem. That's surely understood by everyone.

When that'll be is anyone's guess. I'll stick with 2050

We are co-signatories of the GFA...of course it is our 'problem'.

And it isn't going away.

FrancieBrady

Good article from a journalist with a Unionist background, Susan McKay

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/15/unionist-leaders-northern-ireland-grievance-rage-dup-loyalists?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The problem right now is that all of unionism has turned dissident. Its three main parties have joined forces to bring the British government to court, citing breaches of the 1800 Act of Union and the Good Friday agreement (which two of those three parties opposed). The DUP pulled out of the north-south arrangements that are a mainstay of the agreement. All of the leaders demanded that the chief constable resign over his handling of a republican funeral. DUP MP Sammy Wilson declared “guerrilla warfare” over the protocol that has created a trade border in the Irish Sea. This mechanism by which the EU and the UK resolved Brexit became inevitable after the DUP rejected every other proposed deal. It held out for a hard border across Ireland, but this was incompatible with the GFA, for which 71% of people in Northern Ireland voted in favour in 1998, while 56% of them voted to remain in the EU in 2016.

She goes on to say that

The IRA has gone. What unionism fears now is democracy.

based on the conversations here you would have to add partitionists to that, who are desperate to construct a veto for the very same unionists.

Bobeagleburger

McMurphy wrote: »

Young voters - with their whole lives ahead of them, "don't have as much to lose" as who

Older people? Middle aged?

A younger person has the rest of their lives to live compared with a pensioner (for example) who's already lived the vast majority of theirs?

What you posted makes no sense whatsoever.

It makes perfect sense. I'm taking finances here.

Older people are wealthier, more likely to vote, and will want to protect what they have worked hard for.

By the way by older, I'm not talking pensioners only. People in their 40's/50s/60s who have worked hard and built up some degree of wealth, and stability for them and their families.

Bobeagleburger

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We are co-signatories of the GFA...of course it is our 'problem'.

And it isn't going away.

Not our problem currently. Who pays the bills up there? They are part of the UK who keep them afloat. 10 billion a year.

Junkyard Tom

Chips Lovell wrote: »

It only becomes our problem if we vote for it too.

Sure god love your innocence.