United Ireland Poll - please vote

gormdubhgorm

With regards to the OP's question I think Ireland rejoining the commonwealth could be alternative version of a UI as it could placate those of a Unionist persuasion. Particularly as it looks like that Scotland could get independence in a few years time. thereby, weakening the UK so it could be a form of an 'olive branch' to those in NI.

Sadler Peak

It amazes me that Irish people will take the piss out of Poots, the DUP and their voters (quite righty imo) but will still vote for a united Ireland.

Why bring fukwits like that into our country ?

It's a NO from me.

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

With regards to the OP's question I think Ireland rejoining the commonwealth could be alternative version of a UI as it could placate those of a Unionist persuasion. Particularly as it looks like that Scotland could get independence in a few years time. thereby, weakening the UK so it could be a form of an 'olive branch' to those in NI.

Why do we need to give an olive branch to people? What is it that this State has inflicted upon Unionism to require one?

We live in a Republic. It would be anathema to join an organisation headed by a monarch.

Also, you've brought this up before. Please don't go down this happy-clappy why can't we al just get along nonsense road again.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why do we need to give an olive branch to people? What is it that this State has inflicted upon Unionism to require one?

We live in a Republic. It would be anathema to join an organisation headed by a monarch.

Also, you've brought this up before. Please don't go down this happy-clappy why can't we al just get along nonsense road again.

You have to look at it from the other point of view there has been Unionist's in that area of Ireland for 400 plus years. Yet somehow by some form of arrogance purely based on the fact Ireland is an island it SHOULD be reunited under the Irish tricolour. The very tricolour that was created by Meagher in 1848 had Green, White and Orange. The Orange was supposed to represent the Protestant Unionist tradition.
So you are telling me the Orange part was only put in for the craic as bit of tokenism or what?

The majority in Ireland speak the same language as the Unionist's. English.
Many follow English clubs etc. Same pastimes, same popular culture. Plus people rarely go to mass any more in any serious way. The Catholic Church has lost much of its power.

Being in the commonwealth with the Queen as head of State is merely ceremonial. DeValera had no problem in taking the Oath to enter the Dail which he saw as mere formality. If someone like Dev could take the oath, surely Irish people in the interests of a peaceful and more settled UI could accept the Queen as Ceremonial Head of State?

I wouldn't have a problem with it in the interests of peace. I don't think it would really affect my day to day life one way or the other.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/why_ireland_should_rejoin_the_commonwealth/

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-the-republic-must-consider-rejoining-the-commonwealth-1.3605886

https://www.thecanary.co/opinion/2020/01/12/as-brexit-could-trigger-a-united-ireland-republicans-need-to-be-careful-what-they-wish-for/

Brexit has thrown the cat among the pigeons, the Unionists in NI could end up in a fractured UK, looking for a home. It looks like it soon won't be Scotland.
What is the real harm in making them feel more at home in a UI if it prevents future loss of life, unease and unrest?

blanch152

FileNotFound wrote: »

I don't get how people are missing this. RoI is a modern nation with forward thinking attitudes.

The mindset of some in the North is abhorrent to most in the Republic.

It's not that anyone would not want a UI - it's sadly the divisive sad old misery mindset full of hate and anger we have no time for.

Sinn Fein support segregated schooling in the North, and segregated housing, both of which are probably as anti-republican as you can get. We don't want or need that kind of mindset.

Junkyard Tom

We will accommodate people who identify as British but we will need to contain Orange/Loyalist/Unionist culture in the northeast of the country because there is nothing really 'British' about it.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

We will accommodate people who identify as British but we will need to contain Orange/Loyalist/Unionist culture in the northeast of the country because there is nothing really 'British' about it.

Do you want to keep travellers in Rathkeale and Longford while you are at it?

Maybe create a colony of Jews on Achill Island?

Round up the partitionists and wall off Killiney and Dalkey for them?

A breathtakingly stupid suggestion that shows what happens when the mask slips.

gormdubhgorm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

We will accommodate people who identify as British but we will need to contain unionist culture in the northeast of the country because there is nothing really 'British' about it.

Do you want to fence them in a reservation?

Also how can they be Unionist when apart from the Union it makes no sense.

It is as odd as myopic Republican's in NI and in the ROI refusing to say the name of either state and pretend their worldview exists.

I understand what you are saying about the Unionists. They seem to want to be more British than the British at times. Yet on other issues such as Brexit they share the same views as those in the ROI.

Surely compromise can be found on both sides? Neither a part of the UK and neither a Republic seems to be the sensible way to go. The more I think of it is the obvious answer. But many people are too myopic or think it is a game.

I am all for what would make a stable, peaceful and prosperous UI. Otherwise I would have zero interest in it and the status quo should remain the same.

It seems like an awful stupid thing to be willing to die for on either side at this stage. Both free and peaceful nations with similar outlooks culturally.

gormdubhgorm

A few lines from the end of the Proclamation of independence:

'we pray that no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity, or rapine'

It seems like this line went out the window many a time in the recent past in Ireland's history.

Isn't it about time the Irish people showed a bit of maturity and bravery and showed real compromise in the interests of a long lasting peaceful UI. Only then can the discussion of security, health care, education i and so on be discussed in a UI.

Otherwise it is only people interested in yahooing and flag waving. Maybe some know no different at this stage?

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

A breathtakingly stupid suggestion that shows what happens when the mask slips.

You understand that unionist culture had to be contained within the north itself, don't you? Have you ever heard of 'the Parades Commission'? Do you remember Drumcree and the three children who were burned to death in their beds? Or is it all care-bears and unicorns in your visions?

Listen, if people think inviting Love Ulster types down for a march through their city is a good idea, then work away, but don't say you weren't advised otherwise.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

A few lines from the end of the Proclamation of independence:
'we pray that no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity, or rapine'

You've never actually been to the north during marching season, have you? It must be one of the only places on Earth where the locals leave in their droves to avoid a national celebration. Every Summer tens-of-thousands of people book their holidays for the middle of July and piss off out of the six counties. Ever wondered why?

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You have to look at it from the other point of view there has been Unionist's in that area of Ireland for 400 plus years. Yet somehow by some form of arrogance purely based on the fact Ireland is an island it SHOULD be reunited under the Irish tricolour. The very tricolour that was created by Meagher in 1848 had Green, White and Orange. The Orange was supposed to represent the Protestant Unionist tradition.
So you are telling me the Orange part was only put in for the craic as bit of tokenism or what?

The majority in Ireland speak the same language as the Unionist's. English.
Many follow English clubs etc. Same pastimes, same popular culture. Plus people rarely go to mass any more in any serious way. The Catholic Church has lost much of its power.

Being in the commonwealth with the Queen as head of State is merely ceremonial. DeValera had no problem in taking the Oath to enter the Dail which he saw as mere formality. If someone like Dev could take the oath, surely Irish people in the interests of a peaceful and more settled UI could accept the Queen as Ceremonial Head of State?

I wouldn't have a problem with it in the interests of peace. I don't think it would really affect my day to day life one way or the other.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/why_ireland_should_rejoin_the_commonwealth/

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-the-republic-must-consider-rejoining-the-commonwealth-1.3605886

https://www.thecanary.co/opinion/2020/01/12/as-brexit-could-trigger-a-united-ireland-republicans-need-to-be-careful-what-they-wish-for/

Brexit has thrown the cat among the pigeons, the Unionists in NI could end up in a fractured UK, looking for a home. It looks like it soon won't be Scotland.
What is the real harm in making them feel more at home in a UI if it prevents future loss of life, unease and unrest?

Seriously. This is the same crap you were peddling months back on another thread and you were ran out of it. Save your energy.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein support segregated schooling in the North, and segregated housing, both of which are probably as anti-republican as you can get. We don't want or need that kind of mindset.

Do Sinn Féin have a monopoly on a UI?

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Do you want to fence them in a reservation?

Also how can they be Unionist when apart from the Union it makes no sense.

It is as odd as myopic Republican's in NI and in the ROI refusing to say the name of either state and pretend their worldview exists.

I understand what you are saying about the Unionists. They seem to want to be more British than the British at times. Yet on other issues such as Brexit they share the same views as those in the ROI.

Surely compromise can be found on both sides? Neither a part of the UK and neither a Republic seems to be the sensible way to go. The more I think of it is the obvious answer. But many people are too myopic or think it is a game.

I am all for what would make a stable, peaceful and prosperous UI. Otherwise I would have zero interest in it and the status quo should remain the same.

It seems like an awful stupid thing to be willing to die for on either side at this stage. Both free and peaceful nations with similar outlooks culturally.

What exactly have we been asked to compromise on by those who seek compromise?

droidman123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You have to look at it from the other point of view there has been Unionist's in that area of Ireland for 400 plus years. Yet somehow by some form of arrogance purely based on the fact Ireland is an island it SHOULD be reunited under the Irish tricolour. The very tricolour that was created by Meagher in 1848 had Green, White and Orange. The Orange was supposed to represent the Protestant Unionist tradition.
So you are telling me the Orange part was only put in for the craic as bit of tokenism or what?

The majority in Ireland speak the same language as the Unionist's. English.
Many follow English clubs etc. Same pastimes, same popular culture. Plus people rarely go to mass any more in any serious way. The Catholic Church has lost much of its power.

Being in the commonwealth with the Queen as head of State is merely ceremonial. DeValera had no problem in taking the Oath to enter the Dail which he saw as mere formality. If someone like Dev could take the oath, surely Irish people in the interests of a peaceful and more settled UI could accept the Queen as Ceremonial Head of State?

I wouldn't have a problem with it in the interests of peace. I don't think it would really affect my day to day life one way or the other.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/why_ireland_should_rejoin_the_commonwealth/

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-the-republic-must-consider-rejoining-the-commonwealth-1.3605886

https://www.thecanary.co/opinion/2020/01/12/as-brexit-could-trigger-a-united-ireland-republicans-need-to-be-careful-what-they-wish-for/

Brexit has thrown the cat among the pigeons, the Unionists in NI could end up in a fractured UK, looking for a home. It looks like it soon won't be Scotland.
What is the real harm in making them feel more at home in a UI if it prevents future loss of life, unease and unrest?

Token or not,i would never accept the queen of a foreign country as the head of state of my country.we are a republic,we dont do monarchies, are you for real?

briany

Being a part of a UI is unacceptable to the likes of Poots and Co. Full stop. So there's no point trying to sate them with the idea of remaining in the Commonwealth. The only solution with those people is to help them get a mortgage for a house in Arbroath.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Seriously. This is the same crap you were peddling months back on another thread and you were ran out of it. Save your energy.

Interesting turn of phrase that 'ran out of it...' given the context of the thread.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Do Sinn Féin have a monopoly on a UI?

SF position themselves as those with authority on the subject despite been partitionist when it suits them. Great at hijacking the tricolour and the Irish language to give nice trappings all the same.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What exactly have we been asked to compromise on by those who seek compromise?

It is looking at the long game rather than shot termism.

For ever person here on this thread who cannot think beyond a 32 county Republic with all the bells and whistles ruled from Dublin. Don't you think there are many with a polar opposite view. Which is why a compromise should be at least discussed and offered. Most people who dream of a 32 County Republic merely look at it from an ideological point of view. With little thought for any practicalities.

droidman123 wrote: »

Token or not,i would never accept the queen of a foreign country as the head of state of my country.we are a republic,we dont do monarchies, are you for real?

So the Tricolour to which you look up to is not a sincere one in your view? If you hold this view as a avid Republican. Do you think this will encourage even moderate Unionists to want to become part of a UI? If simple things like Orange in the tricolour are only tokenism how can it be a foundation for a solid UI?
Surely it only doomed to failure in that case?

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You understand that unionist culture had to be contained within the north itself, don't you? Have you ever heard of 'the Parades Commission'? Do you remember Drumcree and the three children who were burned to death in their beds? Or is it all care-bears and unicorns in your visions?

Listen, if people think inviting Love Ulster types down for a march through their city is a good idea, then work away, but don't say you weren't advised otherwise.



You've never actually been to the north during marching season, have you? It must be one of the only places on Earth where the locals leave in their droves to avoid a national celebration. Every Summer tens-of-thousands of people book their holidays for the middle of July and piss off out of the six counties. Ever wondered why?

What a load of blinkered nonsense

FileNotFound

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

We will accommodate people who identify as British but we will need to contain Orange/Loyalist/Unionist culture in the northeast of the country because there is nothing really 'British' about it.

This is the mindsets that will support many people No votes if they get to vote.

Fresh view would be needed. Too many bitter has beens around NI though that will ensure the hate continues.

droidman123

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Interesting turn of phrase that 'ran out of it...' given the context of the thread.



SF position themselves as those with authority on the subject despite been partitionist when it suits them. Great at hijacking the tricolour and the Irish language to give nice trappings all the same.



It is looking at the long game rather than shot termism.

For ever person here on this thread who cannot think beyond a 32 county Republic with all the bells and whistles ruled from Dublin. Don't you think there are many with a polar opposite view. Which is why a compromise should be at least discussed and offered. Most people who dream of a 32 County Republic merely look at it from an ideological point of view. With little thought for any practicalities.




So the Tricolour to which you look up to is not a sincere one in your view? If you hold this view as a avid Republican. Do you think this will encourage even moderate Unionists to want to become part of a UI? If simple things like Orange in the tricolour are only tokenism how can it be a foundation for a solid UI?
Surely it only doomed to failure in that case?

Nothing you have said there is anything to do with my post.i said i would never accept the queen of a foreign country as the head of state of my country and i stand by that.

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Interesting turn of phrase that 'ran out of it...' given the context of the thread.



SF position themselves as those with authority on the subject despite been partitionist when it suits them. Great at hijacking the tricolour and the Irish language to give nice trappings all the same.



It is looking at the long game rather than shot termism.

For ever person here on this thread who cannot think beyond a 32 county Republic with all the bells and whistles ruled from Dublin. Don't you think there are many with a polar opposite view. Which is why a compromise should be at least discussed and offered. Most people who dream of a 32 County Republic merely look at it from an ideological point of view. With little thought for any practicalities.




So the Tricolour to which you look up to is not a sincere one in your view? If you hold this view as a avid Republican. Do you think this will encourage even moderate Unionists to want to become part of a UI? If simple things like Orange in the tricolour are only tokenism how can it be a foundation for a solid UI?
Surely it only doomed to failure in that case?

Please take your ball.

You've literally learned nothing from all of your other interactions on this subject.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Do Sinn Féin have a monopoly on a UI?

FF have now entered the water in the only way a natural partitionist like Michael Martin could allow himself to participate in - The Unity Unit. I think Jim Callaghan will morph this into a full on Unit seeking a UI when he inevitably (At the minute anyhow) takes over.

FG via Richmond beginning to climb on the wagon, typically late, as they have always been on social reforms etc, they will probably become a UI's most ardent promoters if it becomes fashionable.
Probably busily cutting ties with the DUP since the change of leadership too.

Said it before, I am convinced a border poll happens as soon as Dublin gives the 'we're ready' nod.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FF have now entered the water in the only way a natural partitionist like Michael Martin could allow himself to participate in - The Unity Unit. I think Jim Callaghan will morph this into a full on Unit seeking a UI when he inevitably (At the minute anyhow) takes over.

FG via Richmond beginning to climb on the wagon, typically late, as they have always been on social reforms etc, they will probably become a UI's most ardent promoters if it becomes fashionable.
Probably busily cutting ties with the DUP since the change of leadership too.

Said it before, I am convinced a border poll happens as soon as Dublin gives the 'we're ready' nod.

Completely agree with the last sentence. Won't happen if conditions are not right in the Republic.

Unity Unity / ERSI have started work to minimize the damage to the economy unification would cause. Will it be a case of waiting until there is greater harmonization between the 2 countries? Can't see any other way of affording it.

https://www.esri.ie/news/shared-island-unit-esri-joint-research-programme-publishes-first-papers-examining-economic-and

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FF have now entered the water in the only way a natural partitionist like Michael Martin could allow himself to participate in - The Unity Unit. I think Jim Callaghan will morph this into a full on Unit seeking a UI when he inevitably (At the minute anyhow) takes over.

FG via Richmond beginning to climb on the wagon, typically late, as they have always been on social reforms etc, they will probably become a UI's most ardent promoters if it becomes fashionable.
Probably busily cutting ties with the DUP since the change of leadership too.

Said it before, I am convinced a border poll happens as soon as Dublin gives the 'we're ready' nod.

Point of order, it's the Shared Island Unit.

Can't be going around talking about unity with Unionist sensibilities potentially within earshot.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Completely agree with the last sentence. Won't happen if conditions are not right in the Republic.

Unity Unity / ERSI have started work to minimize the damage to the economy unification would cause. Will it be a case of waiting until there is greater harmonization between the 2 countries? Can't see any other way of affording it.

https://www.esri.ie/news/shared-island-unit-esri-joint-research-programme-publishes-first-papers-examining-economic-and

There wouldn't be electricity in the country or running water had we taken that attitude.

There will be all sorts of things done to mitigate costs and it will be promoted as an investment in all our futures.

I'd have no fear that the Irish will reject it, if it is promoted that way and there will only be the lunatic fringe against, the Peter Casey, Eoghan Harris contingent from what I can see.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There wouldn't be electricity in the country or running water had we taken that attitude.

There will be all sorts of things done to mitigate costs and it will be promoted as an investment in all our futures.

I'd have no fear that the Irish will reject it, if it is promoted that way and there will only be the lunatic fringe against, the Peter Casey, Eoghan Harris contingent from what I can see.

Depends on what the ERSI mean by "dramatic" increases in taxes. Will have different meanings to every individual on what is acceptable. We know from the polls that cost will be the biggest factor. Will be a difficult one to sell as an investment. More like in 10/20 years it might have a normal economy and not be a drain on the rest of us.

At least the wheels are in motion and figures will be out there. Opinion Polls over the next few years will give a clearer picture.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Point of order, it's the Shared Island Unit.

Can't be going around talking about unity with Unionist sensibilities potentially within earshot.

Yes...the concept of a 'Unity Unit' in the framework coalition document was too strong for the partitionist Martin,

We will establish a unit within the Department of An Taoiseach (prime minister) to work towards a consensus on a united island

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FF have now entered the water in the only way a natural partitionist like Michael Martin could allow himself to participate in - The Unity Unit. I think Jim Callaghan will morph this into a full on Unit seeking a UI when he inevitably (At the minute anyhow) takes over.

FG via Richmond beginning to climb on the wagon, typically late, as they have always been on social reforms etc, they will probably become a UI's most ardent promoters if it becomes fashionable.
Probably busily cutting ties with the DUP since the change of leadership too.

Said it before, I am convinced a border poll happens as soon as Dublin gives the 'we're ready' nod.

Jim O'C has a document out on Unification. Would link but his website is down.

From memory, he doesn't want unification to be seen as a "cost". To me it sounds like he will be honest about the massive costs involved. SF won't be able to maintain the false narrative that it's all about the subvention.

Once the big figures are out there, opinion polls will give a good indication on it's likelihood of success.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Jim O'C has a document out on Unification. Would link but his website is down.

From memory, he doesn't want unification to be seen as a "cost". To me it sounds like he will be honest about the massive costs involved. SF won't be able to maintain the false narrative that it's all about the subvention.

Once the big figures are out there, opinion polls will give a good indication on it's likelihood of success.

As I say, you need to examine you attitude and see what would have become of you politically if you stopped progress or development solely because it might have a cost.

People like yourself will be side-lined as this whole project becomes one of investment and forward thinking. It's what happens when all government parties are pro an idea and want to be on the winning side.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As I say, you need to examine you attitude and see what would have become of you politically if you stopped progress or development solely because it might have a cost.

People like yourself will be side-lined as this whole project becomes one of investment and forward thinking. It's what happens when all government parties are pro an idea and want to be on the winning side.

As long as there is an honest discussion on the costs I'll be happy whatever happens. As I said, I don't think SF will be able to continue the lie that the subvention is the cost with all the other parties having a more honest approach.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

As long as there is an honest discussion on the costs I'll be happy whatever happens. As I said, I don't think SF will be able to continue the lie that the subvention is the cost with all the other parties having a more honest approach.

SF won't be proposing the motion jh79...a government that contains SF may.

Your government (monitored by the referendum commission) will be proposing and supporting the motion.

SF, FG, FF etc can say what they want as individual parties.