United Ireland Poll - please vote

Junkyard Tom

Swindled wrote: »

They already have Irish citizenship, in fact nearly anyone can obtain it, it's a meaningless brand name now.

I don't respond to new accounts because a lot of them are banned re-regs. Come back after a few months.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You really don't get it.

A "political crisis" doesn't change a single thing for everyday life, is that all you have? We had a political crisis after the last election in the middle of a pandemic and we managed ok. Nowhere near your apocalyptic prediction.

The sectarianism and dysfunction didn't flow from partition, they flowed from the actions of people. Like a poor workman blaming his tools, it is always the fault of some abstract concept, rather than the fault of the people who carried out the actual nauseating violence.

Ah finally it's out in the open...it's the 'people's fault'.

I love the way the partitionist argument is shaping up...'scare them, mock them, demean them - then ask them to vote no so I get to keep a few shekels in my pocket'.

Brilliant strategy only matched by the DUP's Brexit strategy.

FileNotFound

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I've little doubt there would be accusations of betrayal and a political mess with a million people left dangling in limbo, in the north, who have as much right to Irish citizenship as anyone else.

You tell me, what do we do with those people?

Anyone in NI who wants can have Irish citizenship.

I am being blunt and cold in my assessment here - no arguing there. There will be no pulling on the heart strings here.

Accusations and guilty feelings are emotionally driven.


In a vote people will have to judge the practical impact on their lives, the cost and the consequences.

If it were a scales UI is very much up in the air right now. Then again maybe the emotions will carry a vote. I just find it hard to think they will.

Swindled

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I don't respond to new accounts because a lot of them are banned re-regs. Come back after a few months.

That's a really convincing argument.

FileNotFound

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Let who get it out? What you're saying here is 'we're sorry you were left in the predicament you were, with those people who hate you, but you must learn to love them'. That's immoral and unconscionable.

Both sides in the North have people full of hate and anger (real divisive hate), there are also lots of people in the middle.

I always thought that generation after generation the middle would gain ground and people would focus on their commonalities rather than past slights.

Recent events indicate my hope was somewhat in vain.


On the other side - will you tell unionists they must accept and love Ireland or leave?? Thats a bit of hypocrisy no?

FileNotFound

Swindled wrote: »

That's a really convincing argument.

Tom here is full of very unconvincing arguments.


Also predicts the future unrest but won't expand as he cannot predict the future.


It's a strange thread for sure.

Junkyard Tom

FileNotFound wrote: »

On the other side - will you tell unionists they must accept and love Ireland or leave?? Thats a bit of hypocrisy no?

I don't want anyone to leave anywhere. Ireland is PUL people's home as much as it is mine. I truly believe a UI will benefit Unionists too, I don't want a UI out of spite unlike how some people are motivated by their hatred of Sinn Fein.

Look at the trouble we're having at the moment with the Brexit mess. I don't want future generations to have 'the British question', it will always be a millstone around our necks until we answer it.

The north's dysfunction is a consequence of partition, politics has developed around being either pro-UI or anti-UI and that's how it will remain.

Consider this:

A NEW 12,000-word document setting out Economy Minister Diane Dodds’ vision for the next decade has been criticized for omitting any reference to the Irish protocol or the all-island economy.

These people exist to prevent cooperation, it's their reason for being in politics. The only way to end this is to end British jurisdiction.

Swindled

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I don't want anyone to leave anywhere. Ireland is PUL people's home as much as it is mine. I truly believe a UI will benefit Unionists too, I don't want a UI out of spite unlike how some people are motivated by their hatred of Sinn Fein.

Look at the trouble we're having at the moment with the Brexit mess. I don't want future generations to have 'the British question', it will always be a millstone around our necks until we answer it.

The north's dysfunction is a consequence of partition, politics has developed around being either pro-UI or anti-UI and that's how it will remain.

Consider this:

A NEW 12,000-word document setting out Economy Minister Diane Dodds’ vision for the next decade has been criticized for omitting any reference to the Irish protocol or the all-island economy.

These people exist to prevent cooperation, it's their reason for being in politics. The only way to end this is to end British jurisdiction.

So let's go ahead with a United Ireland, and ignore the fact the people on the Island are not United at all. What do you intend to do when Irish Soldiers and Guards are dying on the streets of Belfast instead of British ones ?

FileNotFound

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I don't want anyone to leave anywhere. Ireland is PUL people's home as much as it is mine. I truly believe a UI will benefit Unionists too, I don't want a UI out of spite unlike how some people are motivated by their hatred of Sinn Fein.

Look at the trouble we're having at the moment with the Brexit mess. I don't want future generations to have 'the British question', it will always be a millstone around our necks until we answer it.

The north's dysfunction is a consequence of partition, politics has developed around being either pro-UI or anti-UI and that's how it will remain.

Consider this:

A NEW 12,000-word document setting out Economy Minister Diane Dodds’ vision for the next decade has been criticized for omitting any reference to the Irish protocol or the all-island economy.

These people exist to prevent cooperation, it's their reason for being in politics. The only way to end this is to end British jurisdiction.

That is a fair sentiment, but you must surely admit that the Unionists will feel Partition has been forced upon them even after a democratic vote.

I would never say I am pro SF but I don't necessarily hate them (there views and mine tend not to align). In the North I support them (in spirit).


The real thing for me is that I need to see how we can build a better Ireland for me to vote yes and at the moment that vision (in a very practical, any kind of plan at all on paper) is lacking.

But then I am a not now voter more than anything.


I would like to see how NI voters feel about some things in the South, our version of divorce, equal rights (gay marriage), abortion etc.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I don't want anyone to leave anywhere. Ireland is PUL people's home as much as it is mine. I truly believe a UI will benefit Unionists too, I don't want a UI out of spite unlike how some people are motivated by their hatred of Sinn Fein.

Look at the trouble we're having at the moment with the Brexit mess. I don't want future generations to have 'the British question', it will always be a millstone around our necks until we answer it.

The north's dysfunction is a consequence of partition, politics has developed around being either pro-UI or anti-UI and that's how it will remain.

Consider this:

A NEW 12,000-word document setting out Economy Minister Diane Dodds’ vision for the next decade has been criticized for omitting any reference to the Irish protocol or the all-island economy.

These people exist to prevent cooperation, it's their reason for being in politics. The only way to end this is to end British jurisdiction.

The idea that Irish people are going to abandon their fellow men and women to that again, is just so fabulously ridiculous.

One of the only people who had a public profile to lead a partitionist campaign has been outed as a secretive troll.
The things he had to say were so vile and unpopular he was afraid to utter them under his own name. Partitionism cannot find a political voice here for a reason...it is political suicide.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The idea that Irish people are going to abandon their fellow men and women to that again, is just so fabulously ridiculous.

One of the only people who had a public profile to lead a partitionist campaign has been outed as a secretive troll.
The things he had to say were so vile and unpopular he was afraid to utter them under his own name. Partitionism cannot find a political voice here for a reason...it is political suicide.

That's not the point. The scenario is that we have rejected unification. That has to be respected. It's self determination as set out in the GFA.

FileNotFound

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The idea that Irish people are going to abandon their fellow men and women to that again, is just so fabulously ridiculous.

One of the only people who had a public profile to lead a partitionist campaign has been outed as a secretive troll.
The things he had to say were so vile and unpopular he was afraid to utter them under his own name. Partitionism cannot find a political voice here for a reason...it is political suicide.

You may be right Francie and I definitley wonder who would lead a No campaign.

Then again if someone did and it carried (yes an if) like some, me included mind you, think it could, it would hardly be political suicide surely?

I do think the bite for United ireland is waining - anecdotal from people i connect with I suppose.

Not sure the "who would dare do X to Y" carries the same weight anymore. Especially if some group campaign on the very practical grounds.

My own family would be divided in the vote.

Junkyard Tom

FileNotFound wrote: »

That is a fair sentiment, but you must surely admit that the Unionists will feel Partition has been forced upon them even after a democratic vote.

I understand that but I think the vast majority of Unionists will just want to get on with their lives and their rights will be rigorously upheld. I would like to see them retain as many civil/political privileges that British people enjoy as is practical.

I would never say I am pro SF but I don't necessarily hate them (there views and mine tend not to align). In the North I support them (in spirit).

It's shame there aren't more all-Ireland parties in the north so the nationalist vote would be more broad-spectrum.

The real thing for me is that I need to see how we can build a better Ireland for me to vote yes and at the moment that vision (in a very practical, any kind of plan at all on paper) is lacking. But then I am a not now voter more than anything.

For me one of the main benefits of unification is removing how the DUP has used British jurisdiction to prevent normalisation. The first chance the DUP got to reverse the gains of the Good Friday Agreement they grasped with both hands, and even when they were warned, and warned, and warned, they pushed for, and colluded in, the hardest Brexit they could engineer.

I would like to see how NI voters feel about some things in the South, our version of divorce, equal rights (gay marriage), abortion etc.

The vast majority of people in the north want the same rights as are available in the south regarding equality issues including Unionists.

The DUP is full of fundamentalist nutters but their voters are far more liberal.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

That's not the point. The scenario is that we have rejected unification. That has to be respected. It's self determination as set out in the GFA.

And I am saying you are in fantasy land if you think that Irish people will do that. If there is half a plan they will vote for it. If the north looks like voting yes the whole thing will gather a head of steam like we never seen before.

The DUPites would make life unbearable if the north voted for and the south rejected. They would also look to finish off the GFA after such an event.

Five Eighth

"Now, as one of the signatories of the document, I naturally recommend its acceptance. Equally I do not recommend it for less than it is. In my opinion it gives us freedom, not the ultimate freedom that all nations desire and develop to but the freedom to achieve it."

The above is an extract from the speech made by Michael Collins when addressing the Dail in December 1921. Collins was making the case for the Anglo Irish Agreement that concluded the War of Independence, created the Irish Free State and partitioned the six counties.

More recently, the current leader of Fine Gael addressing the 'Nationalist people of Northern Ireland' stated "You will never again be left behind by an Irish government."

(Statement by An Taoiseach Leo Varadkar TD, dated 8th December 2017)

Given the above, it is beyond comprehension to imagine a situation where the voters in the ROI vote no to unification while the people of Northern Ireland vote yes.

StupidLikeAFox

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ah finally it's out in the open...it's the 'people's fault'.

I love the way the partitionist argument is shaping up...'scare them, mock them, demean them - then ask them to vote no so I get to keep a few shekels in my pocket'.

Brilliant strategy only matched by the DUP's Brexit strategy.

Ah jog on, if you ask a simple, valid question about how we could afford reunification you are labelled as a brit loving partitionist

FrancieBrady

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Ah jog on, if you ask a simple, valid question about how we could afford reunification you are labelled as a brit loving partitionist

Never used the 'Brit' word on this site, much less 'Brit loving'.

So 'jog on' yourself.

FileNotFound

The UI fans here may be right.
Then again those who are disinclined may surprise.

I guess time will tell and I do think time is against a UI down south.

Be interesting, I think everyone has to admit there is no clean cut answer - boards pole had UI as a No interestingly and when costs have been highlighted support does drop significantly.

I suppose SF will want to drive the UI vote should they get in for the next election.

FrancieBrady

FileNotFound wrote: »

The UI fans here may be right.
Then again those who are disinclined may surprise.

I guess time will tell and I do think time is against a UI down south.

Be interesting, I think everyone has to admit there is no clean cut answer - boards pole had UI as a No interestingly and when costs have been highlighted support does drop significantly.

I suppose SF will want to drive the UI vote should they get in for the next election.

Watch what will happen if FF and FG get a sniff that a UI is achievable.

FileNotFound

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Watch what will happen if FF and FG get a sniff that a UI is achievable.

I just don't see the opportunity arising in this Gov lifetime and then cannot see SF letting a term go without trying.

Doubt there is a party on the island that would not want to be the ones to bring a UI.

Junkyard Tom

I would like to think the all the pro-UI parties will have the maturity to team up on it when the time comes, we could do without the factionalism.

guy2231

I find it hilarious the partionists on this thread taking that tiny poll by the independent as literal fact.

This partionist/west brit mentality is nothing new even in the 1918 election Sinn Fein won less than half the votes.

briany

Has there ever been any elaboration on how the NI SoS would determine that a border poll would be likely to pass? Would it be if/when Sinn Fein become the largest party in the assembly? Would it be when the NI census returns a Catholic majority for the first time? Would it be after a number of polls done by the BBC found that a majority of people would vote for a UI? Would it be after making a drunken bet on a UI down at Ladbrokes?

FileNotFound

guy2231 wrote: »

I find it hilarious the partionists on this thread taking that tiny poll by the independent as literal fact.

This partionist/west brit mentality is nothing new even in the 1918 election Sinn Fein won less than half the votes.

Who created the second account haha...

That's a little sad now. Must be feeling very insecure to waste such time and try a bit of name calling.

FileNotFound

briany wrote: »

Has there ever been any elaboration on how the NI SoS would determine that a border poll would be likely to pass? Would it be if/when Sinn Fein become the largest party in the assembly? Would it be when the NI census returns a Catholic majority for the first time? Would it be after a number of polls done by the BBC found that a majority of people would vote for a UI? Would it be after making a drunken bet on a UI down at Ladbrokes?

I hear it will happen when the wind blows from the west but the rain travels east on the third Tuesday of a new moon at low tide.

These agreements are always very exact.

Ten of Swords

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Ah jog on, if you ask a simple, valid question about how we could afford reunification you are labelled as a brit loving partitionist

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Never used the 'Brit' word on this site, much less 'Brit loving'.

So 'jog on' yourself.

Keep the comments civil please. These, and others, are getting a bit combative, dial it back a bit please

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Watch what will happen if FF and FG get a sniff that a UI is achievable.

No sign of a sniff at the.moment, indeed the whole notion of the island of Ireland United 'as one political entity' just doesn't ring true, they've always been different up North, and no amount of misty eyed republican bar stool chatter is ever going to shift them from their current position. That's the impression I get anyway.

And even if a vote to dislodge them passed by 51% you still wouldn't have any king of republican United Ireland utopia, because they (Loyalists & Unionists) would not be happy to be shoehorned into this State.

ittakestwo

Hamsterchops wrote: »

No sign of a sniff at the.moment, indeed the whole notion of the island of Ireland United 'as one political entity' just doesn't ring true, they've always been different up North, and no amount of misty eyed republican bar stool chatter is ever going to shift them from their current position. That's the impression I get anyway.

And even if a vote to dislodge them passed by 51% you still wouldn't have any king of republican United Ireland utopia, because they (Loyalists & Unionists) would not be happy to be shoehorned into this State.

Yeah but that is democracy. Which is better that 51% of the population dont like something or 49% don't like something.

Also the UK falling apart is something that is not being talked enough of in this thread. It is very likely to be the cause of a UI.

jh79

ittakestwo wrote: »

Yeah but that is democracy. Which is better that 51% of the population dont like something or 49% don't like something.

Also the UK falling apart is something that is not being talked enough of in this thread. It is very likely to be the cause of a UI.

Exactly, if 51% of the population in the Republic reject Unification that has to he respected too.

maestroamado

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Watch what will happen if FF and FG get a sniff that a UI is achievable.

What do you think will happen in FF & FG....