United Ireland Poll - please vote

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

...empire arrogance

That one sentence in bold and the use of the word 'empire' tells me exactly what were dealing with here. Why would you use that word unless you're so close to the trees that you cannot see the woods! That empire sh|t is usually only used by hardened old school republicans.

I did hold out some hope for you Francie, but I guess you're much closer to Tom (and his hard line) than I thought

Normal Irish people don't make excuses for terrorists, we just don't, and yet just reading your latest contribution tells us that you at least understood what the Provos did during the Troubles, and for that, you will always be my enemy (in your train of thought).

And if we can't even be united in our thoughts, then what hope have we ever uniting with the North & with Unionists?

Zero, if your thoughts are anything to go by

I didn't either make 'excuses' for 'terrorists' or ignore the various uses of terror to suit an agenda.

You point blank refuse to look at the causes of what happened and seek to portray it as an attack on the UK.

That is an 'empire' mentality seen here on this island and in Britain, particularly during Brexit.

It is the view of many many people across the world that this 'empire' mentality exists. Just a quick google to back that ^ up. here is somebody writing about that 'mentality' you deny the existence of, in a UK newspaper:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/12/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-britains-imperial-legacy

jh79

drdidlittle wrote: »

But in an United Ireland we will still have the special criminal court to deal with this won't we...................

Imagine if SF manage to get rid of it. Open season for "Good Republicans".

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Gone as a military threat but the remnants are still involved with criminality. Still have friends in SF.

As said again and again...if you have evidence of this and the police on either side have ignored this evidence then once again it has to be asked...WHO exactly is the threat to the state?

At some point you have to face the logic of your position.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As said again and again...if you have evidence of this and the police on either side have ignored this evidence then once again it has to be asked...WHO exactly is the threat to the state?

At some point you have to face the logic of your position.

Well we know Derry SF were present when McCartney was gutted. We know Republican youths rioted at a time that was very convenient for the scum who did it. We know all of SF couldn't of fitted in the jacks that night.

Yet no justice for his family.

How do you justify that?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Well we know Derry SF were present when McCartney was gutted. We know Republican youths rioted at a time that was very convenient for the scum who did it. We know all of SF couldn't of fitted in the jacks that night.

Yet no justice for his family.

How do you justify that?

I don't 'justify' it...ever.

Again and again I have said there are responsibilities for what happened and that IT WAS ALL WRONG, from the beginning (caps for emphasis)

That you keep plucking selective and emotive victims to deflect from the core issues is predictable and sad in equal measure.

I refer to SF as 'not a normal party' by virtue of the fact they are evolving in a post conflict/war society where many of the issues that caused that conflict/war have yet to be dealt with and resolved.

They, by no means or metric, have gotten it all right but they have IMO fulfilled their commitments to the GFA better than most.

BTW: Some of those in the bar the night McCartney was murdered had been to 'Derry' that day, I don't think Derry SF were there.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

BTW: Some of those in the bar the night McCartney was murdered had been to 'Derry' that day, I don't think Derry SF were there.

Maybe I read it wrong. I remember something about a Bus Load from SF being there.

Do you at least accept that the actions of SF that night were to protect Jock and his gang? You don't honestly believe they all missed a guy getting his eye gouged out and then being completely disemboweled.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Maybe I read it wrong. I remember something about a Bus Load from SF being there.

Do you at least accept that the actions of SF that night were to protect Jock and his gang? You don't honestly believe they all missed a guy getting his eye gouged out and then being completely disemboweled.

I think the actions of those there were to protect the gang. The brawl began in the bar and the fatal wounds were inflicted some distance away as I remember,

The idea that SF were there as a political entity making decisions and directing actions is bizarre and ridiculous.

Individuals there took actions and engaged in the obscenities and SF and the IRA were slow to deal with it.

As I said, SF have made many mistakes on a road that many mistakes in general have been made.

Whatcar212

jh79 wrote: »

Maybe I read it wrong. I remember something about a Bus Load from SF being there.

Do you at least accept that the actions of SF that night were to protect Jock and his gang? You don't honestly believe they all missed a guy getting his eye gouged out and then being completely disemboweled.

Think it was 6 SF members in the pub at the time iirc. And they clearly missed the guy getting stabbed and the other his throat slit. What they definitely didn't miss was the group who dragged the 2 victims outside before hand.

Iirc SF made the 6 members report to the police? not sure on that bit though.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think the actions of those there were to protect the gang. The brawl began in the bar and the fatal wounds were inflicted some distance away as I remember,

The idea that SF were there as a political entity making decisions and directing actions is bizarre and ridiculous.

Individuals there took actions and engaged in the obscenities and SF and the IRA were slow to deal with it.

As I said, SF have made many mistakes on a road that many mistakes in general have been made.

Didn't "Republicans" refuse to let emergency services in too? He was just left there until it was safe for Jock and his gang.

Whatcar212

jh79 wrote: »

Didn't "Republicans" refuse to let emergency services in too? He was just left there until it was safe for Jock and his gang.

iirc both victims were left outside a short distance from the pub. the people who did it returned to the pub to clean up and threatened everyone in there (all media info so not sure if true or false)

jh79

Whatcar212 wrote: »

Iirc SF made the 6 members report to the police? not sure on that bit though.

They were all in the toilet was the approved response.

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I refer to SF as 'not a normal party' by virtue of the fact they are evolving in a post conflict/war society where many of the issues that caused that conflict/war have yet to be dealt with and resolved.

WTF, there you go again, absolving them because they were coming out of a "war' situation, you and your war, as it seems like you are incapable of saying THE TROUBLES because that doesn't fit in with your warped agenda!

Sinn Fein is/was the political wing of The Provisional IRA (a terrorist organisation) who took it upon themselves to cause bloodshed and misery whenever they struck, and all you can say is well The Empire this or the empire that, or Crown forces this or that, but you never take on board just what a nasty cancer the IRA were on this whole island.

Unity of hearts & minds on the island has been put back fifty years because of what those basterds did, and what they got into during The Troubles :mad:

And even after the Troubles ended, they still persisted in dishing out the odd murder, just so we all remember who wields the biggest stick on the island. Loads of Shinners in the bar that night McCartney was executed.

> United Ireland poll thread, and we're all infighting amongst ourselves, some unity this is.

Fionn1952

Hamsterchops wrote: »

WTF, there you go again, absolving them because they were coming out of a "war' situation, you and your war, as it seems like you are incapable of saying THE TROUBLES because that doesn't fit in with your warped agenda!

Not to put too fine a point on it, but The Troubles is probably worse from a euphemistically diminishing the significance of the issue perspective.

The term, 'The Troubles' isn't indicative of any agenda, so I'm not sure how not using the term is somehow indicative of another agenda. I'm sure I can find plenty of examples of the British establishment including soldiers who served in NI referring to it as a war, as the conflict and a hundred other terms. I can certainly find examples of those on the Republican side using the term, 'The Troubles', so I really don't see what you're getting at.

Seems like you're being a bit heavy handed in your attempts to be critical of Francie on this one to me to be honest.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

They were all in the toilet was the approved response.

That is a myth I believe.

Quickly grew legs after the family said that some people who were there told them that they were in the toilet.

The tragic murder didn't actually happen in the bar, a brawl that spilled out onto the streets, started in the bar.

Never let the truth get in the way, as they say.

mehico

Some interesting points raised by Peadar Tóibín this week on the concept of representation for NI MP's in the Dail:

https://twitter.com/AontuIE/status/1395018691218137088

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think the actions of those there were to protect the gang. The brawl began in the bar and the fatal wounds were inflicted some distance away as I remember,

The idea that SF were there as a political entity making decisions and directing actions is bizarre and ridiculous.

Individuals there took actions and engaged in the obscenities and SF and the IRA were slow to deal with it.

As I said, SF have made many mistakes on a road that many mistakes in general have been made.

You could apply that logic to any situation where soldiers kill, unless a direct order was given from the very top, the organisation wasn't involved.

It is a complete cop-out, and the opposite to everything you say about the other side.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

WTF, there you go again, absolving them because they were coming out of a "war' situation, you and your war, as it seems like you are incapable of saying THE TROUBLES because that doesn't fit in with your warped agenda!

Sinn Fein is/was the political wing of The Provisional IRA (a terrorist organisation) who took it upon themselves to cause bloodshed and misery whenever they struck, and all you can say is well The Empire this or the empire that, or Crown forces this or that, but you never take on board just what a nasty cancer the IRA were on this whole island.

Unity of hearts & minds on the island has been put back fifty years because of what those basterds did, and what they got into during The Troubles :mad:

And even after the Troubles ended, they still persisted in dishing out the odd murder, just so we all remember who wields the biggest stick on the island. Loads of Shinners in the bar that night McCartney was executed.

> United Ireland poll thread, and we're all infighting amongst ourselves, some unity this is.

QED in that post for anyone wanting to see the 'empire' mentality.

Everyone else's fault but those at the wheel...from Empire days to Brexit...never changes.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

QED in that post for anyone wanting to see the 'empire' mentality.

Everyone else's fault but those at the wheel...from Empire days to Brexit...never changes.

By the same token , partition can't be used as an excuse for enternity. Plenty of incidents since the GFA.

In your opinion are SF "clean" now or is there still a bit to go?

Whatcar212

Hamsterchops wrote: »

WTF, there you go again, absolving them because they were coming out of a "war' situation, you and your war, as it seems like you are incapable of saying THE TROUBLES because that doesn't fit in with your warped agenda!

Sinn Fein is/was the political wing of The Provisional IRA (a terrorist organisation) who took it upon themselves to cause bloodshed and misery whenever they struck, and all you can say is well The Empire this or the empire that, or Crown forces this or that, but you never take on board just what a nasty cancer the IRA were on this whole island.

Unity of hearts & minds on the island has been put back fifty years because of what those basterds did, and what they got into during The Troubles :mad:

And even after the Troubles ended, they still persisted in dishing out the odd murder, just so we all remember who wields the biggest stick on the island. Loads of Shinners in the bar that night McCartney was executed.

The troubles is the name given to it by the UK government to downplay the fact that they had an internal civil war. In any other country it would be referred to as a civil war, simple as that. Do you refer to the current Israel/Palestine conflict as 'troubles'

SF/IRA are no different to UVF/DUP yet there seems to be complete absolution of the DUP and unionist terrorists. Lets not forget that the first murders of the civil war 'troubles' was by the ruc and uvf not the ira.

Too many people in this thread do a great job of calling out sf and the ira (which is deserved) but refused to acknowledge all the murder caused by the british state and terrorists.

The job of a united Ireland is to move on the those issues and build a new future that is better for everyone. That will be hard to do when for its whole existence the north has thrived of division and conflict.

And its made more difficult by southern partitionists who are so removed from the horror that people in the north lived through that all they care about is the money in their pocket. Compassion and empathy for their fellow humans is less important than being able to go to the pub or buy new things.

Hamsterchops

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Not to put too fine a point on it, but The Troubles is probably worse from a euphemistically diminishing the significance of the issue perspective.

The term, 'The Troubles' isn't indicative of any agenda, so I'm not sure how not using the term is somehow indicative of another agenda. I'm sure I can find plenty of examples of the British establishment including soldiers who served in NI referring to it as a war, as the conflict and a hundred other terms. I can certainly find examples of those on the Republican side using the term, 'The Troubles', so I really don't see what you're getting at.

Seems like you're being a bit heavy handed in your attempts to be critical of Francie on this one to me to be honest.

There is a subtle move to shift the language away from the troubles to The War, to also shift the language away from Northern Ireland to The North of Ireland, there is also a subtle change (not so subtle) movement to change history and to make out that in some way the Provisional IRA were a freedom fighting army, and not terrorists!

This change in language is happening befor our very eyes ears and it's getting by ...

If the troubles can be changed into The War, then it gives the Provos an equal hand in history, it justifies their actions as being an army in a war, that's why I get annoyed with Francie because he keeps making excuses for the Provos and their just war (against the evil empire)!

The Provos were our enemy too here in the Republic.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

By the same token , partition can't be used as an excuse for enternity. Plenty of incidents since the GFA.

In your opinion are SF "clean" now or is there still a bit to go?

'Partition' isn't being used as an excuse.

Partition is the cause of what happened here.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Partition' isn't being used as an excuse.

Partition is the cause of what happened here.

I don't think "cause" is right. They still made choices. Justification is more appropriate.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

There is a subtle move to shift the language away from the troubles to The War, to also shift the language away from Northern Ireland to The North of Ireland, there is also a subtle change (not so subtle) movement to change history and to make out that in some way the Provisional IRA were a freedom fighting army, and not terrorists!

This change in language is happening befor our very eyes ears and it's getting by ...

If the troubles can be changed into The War, then it gives the Provos an equal hand in history, it justifies their actions as being an army in a war, that's why I get annoyed with Francie because he keeps making excuses for the Provos and their just war (against the evil empire)!

The Provos were our enemy too here in the Republic.

'The Troubles' is an insult to what people went through here.

I called it what it was...take your pick from the two 'conflict/war'

That you get upset about one of those is again typical of the empire mentality. Only a 'certain' type can engage in 'war'.

'War' in the Empire mindset is something 'honourable' when in fact it is tragic and ugly and an arena where some of the most evil acts of humankind were perpetuated from the ancient Romans, to defenders of Empire to Hamas, the Nazi's and the IRA.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

I don't think "cause" is right. They still made choices. Justification is more appropriate.

No partition, no corrosive sectarian bigoted Unionist state, no inevitable violent reaction.

Partition...cause and effect.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No partition, no corrosive sectarian bigoted Unionist state, no inevitable violent reaction.

Partition...cause and effect.

Plenty of incidents since the GFA. So in your opinion are SF "clean" yet or will a few more McCartney type incidents still get the "it's all partition s fault" get out of jail free card?

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That you get upset about one of those is again typical of the empire mentality. Only a 'certain' type can engage in 'war'.

I'm goin to take my blood pressure tablets and shuffle off this thread for a few days before I spontaneously combust

Bye for now.....

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Plenty of incidents since the GFA. So in your opinion are SF "clean" yet or will a few more McCartney type incidents still get the "it's all partition s fault" get out of jail free card?

Where did I blame McCartney's murder on 'partition'?

Any chance that you could engage honestly here?

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I'm goin to take my blood pressure tablets and shuffle off this thread for a few days before I spontaneously combust

Bye for now.....

Are you having troubles with your blood pressure HC?

I notice you totally ignore the fact that I call it a 'conflict/war' to cover the various views of what happened.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where did I blame McCartney's murder on 'partition'?

Any chance that you could engage honestly here?

You said it was because SF are a post conflict party. When does that grace period end for you?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

You said it was because SF are a post conflict party. When does that grace period end for you?

No I didn't.

'SF' (a political party) did not kill McCartney.
Members of SF were involved in the incident and SF didn't deal with it properly.

It is akin to putting FG, the political party, in the dock, because a member glasses somebody in a pub.

I think...(I'll say it again. :rolleyes:) that SF are a post conflict/war party and that they have fulfilled their commitments to the GFA. Might they get stuff wrong in the future?
Yes, they probably will and it will be criticsed by me as I have criticised them for the funeral mistakes, etc etc etc.