United Ireland Poll - please vote

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

I was asking because the next government is predicted by all to be led by SF and if there is a border poll in the near future it is likely to be SF baby.

Any plan by an Irish government will include input from across the benches and from consultative procedures like a citizens assembly etc.

mehico

Irish unity has cross party political support, this is not confined to SF. Due to the political and popular will actually existing in relation to a UI, it would be fair to conclude that any issues including economics can be sensibly planned for and overcome.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any plan by an Irish government will include input from across the benches and from consultative procedures like a citizens assembly etc.

What has the citizens assembly got to do with the Hubner Report? A random selection of Irish citizens will not be proposing an alternative economic prediction on the benfits as Hubner has. SF promote this paper as an example of the financial benefits of a UI.

You have dismissed the findings of Hubner (without giving a reason btw), doesn't that call into question SF judgement?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

What has the citizens assembly got to do with the Hubner Report? A random selection of Irish citizens will not be proposing an alternative economic prediction on the benfits as Hubner has. SF promote this paper as an example of the financial benefits of a UI.

You have dismissed the findings of Hubner (without giving a reason btw), doesn't that call into question SF judgement?

I haven't dismissed anything jh79.

The 67% in favour should tell you that there are other considerations in a UI than the amount of money left in your wallet.

The reason why you have NO political support for partitionism lies in the above. You should consider it very seriously before adopting a negative campaign.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I haven't dismissed anything jh79.

The 67% in favour should tell you that there are other considerations in a UI than the amount of money left in your wallet.

The reason why you have NO political support for partitionism lies in the above. You should consider it very seriously before adopting a negative campaign.

And with only 22% willing to pay for it, it would be foolish to ignore or stifle debate on the financial aspects.

jh79

mehico wrote: »

Irish unity has cross party political support, this is not confined to SF. Due to the political and popular will actually existing in relation to a UI, it would be fair to conclude that any issues including economics can be sensibly planned for and overcome.

The ERSI have already told the dail that "dramatic" tax increases would be required. They also want taxes increased to pay for COVID. Good luck to any party trying to sell that.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

And with only 22% willing to pay for it, it would be foolish to ignore or stifle debate on the financial aspects.

22% don't want to pay more tax.

I would have thought closer to 100% 'don't want to pay tax'.

I don't want to pay any tax...but I DO because there is something I want.

67% WANT a UI.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

22% don't want to pay more tax.

I would have thought closer to 100% 'don't want to pay tax'.

I don't want to pay any tax...but I DO because there is something I want.

67% WANT a UI.

Jaysus Franice, the exact same people were asked if they would pay more tax for a UI. That includes the 67% that want a UI obviously.

Unlike you, that random selection do not want a UI enough to pay more in taxes.

guy2231

FrancieBrady wrote: »

22% don't want to pay more tax.

I would have thought closer to 100% 'don't want to pay tax'.

I don't want to pay any tax...but I DO because there is something I want.

67% WANT a UI.

67% according to that single tiny poll of a few hundred people, it annoys me that this thread has been taking that poll as literal fact ever since it was released I am sure the figure would be higher.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Jaysus Franice, the exact same people were asked if they would pay more tax for a UI. That includes the 67% that want a UI obviously.

Unlike you, that random selection do not want a UI enough to pay more in taxes.

Or the Pymdependent wanted a negative answer so they asked a leading question...happens all the time in polls.

67% want a UI and majorities in both jurisdictions want a border poll.

Why the f*** would you want a BP if you don't want to pay more tax?

You were led to the water with this question and you drank heartily as you were meant to do.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why the f*** would you want a BP if you don't want to pay more tax?

At least now you are accepting tax increases are inevitable.

Maybe they think someone else will pay for it? You've floated the idea yourselves so hardly a stretch to think others think likewise.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

At least now you are accepting tax increases are inevitable.

Maybe they think someone else will pay for it? You've floated the idea yourselves so hardly a stretch to think others think likewise.

Nobody will be asked to 'pay' for it.

There will be costs - the 'costs' of running a country, any country. Borne by everyone living here.

We pay our taxes because we want a certain type of society. As I keep saying, if the costs are couched in investment terms (which they will be) then I am confident that 67% and more will decide favourably.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody will be asked to 'pay' for it.

There will be costs - the 'costs' of running a country, any country. Borne by everyone living here.

We pay our taxes because we want a certain type of society. As I keep saying, if the costs are couched in investment terms (which they will be) then I am confident that 67% and more will decide favourably.

Do we have to go back down the road of demanding my taxes don't go to pay for Leitrim?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody will be asked to 'pay' for it.

There will be costs - the 'costs' of running a country, any country. Borne by everyone living here.

We pay our taxes because we want a certain type of society. As I keep saying, if the costs are couched in investment terms (which they will be) then I am confident that 67% and more will decide favourably.

67% is quite optimistic considering it involves trebling the 22% that would pay more taxes.

Hopefully over the course of the next few opinion polls and with the publishing of updated papers on the cost we will see more specific question on levels of tax increases people are willing to accept.

jh79

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Do we have to go back down the road of demanding my taxes don't go to pay for Leitrim?

If you where a civil servant would you take redundancy to facilitate a UI?

Are you willing to pay 8% more in taxes on your current wage just to cover NI deficit?

Are you willing to go beyond 8% to fix NI economy?

Just curious what's your line in the sand if any?

Shebean

Surely the north will still need civil servants after unification? Can these staff not merely change the letterheads and have their union engage in talks? Varadkar kept out of it naturally, based on trust.

The taxation question always seems to be loaded. Ask anyone would you like to pay more tax for X and Y, they'll generally say no.

jh79

Shebean wrote: »

Surely the north will still need civil servants after unification? Can these staff not merely change the letterheads and have their union engage in talks? Varadkar kept out of it naturally, based on trust.

The taxation question always seems to be loaded. Ask anyone would you like to pay more tax for X and Y, they'll generally say no.

The North has too many civil servants as it is, way higher than the Republic. It's the reason workers in NI enjoy a higher standard of living than those in the Republic. A vote for a UI for any PS worker in Ni will likely mean some of them being made redundant.

jh79

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Do we have to go back down the road of demanding my taxes don't go to pay for Leitrim?

Poor analogy. The entire NI economy is a basket case. The cost of unification is just to get NI to be normal where the higher density urban areas such as Belfast and Dublin transfer wealth to the remainder of the country.

Shebean

jh79 wrote: »

The North has too many civil servants as it is, way higher than the Republic. It's the reason workers in NI enjoy a higher standard of living than those in the Republic. A vote for a UI for any PS worker in Ni will likely mean some of them being made redundant.

We won't all wake up one morning and have to like or lump a UI.
These things will be hashed out ahead of time.
The greater public won't accept waste. If it's put to them by government that there is too much waste in certain areas they'll support cuts. How can people with little or nothing to do, (if they're over staffed) justify their position? We could easily put a freeze on hiring without putting anyone out of pocket.
There's numerous ways to address such things.

jh79

Shebean wrote: »

We won't all wake up one morning and have to like or lump a UI.
These things will be hashed out ahead of time.
The greater public won't accept waste. If it's put to them by government that there is too much waste in certain areas they'll support cuts. How can people with little or nothing to do, (if they're over staffed) justify their position? We could easily put a freeze on hiring without putting anyone out of pocket.
There's numerous ways to address such things.

They'll have to cut numbers in the PS and reduce quality of life levels in NI but why would this cohort vote for a UI?

If they don't you'll have a hard time convincing the Republic to pay to maintain this.

FrancieBrady

Shebean wrote: »

We won't all wake up one morning and have to like or lump a UI.

Precisely. A transition period will make a lot of the necessary adjustments. Signs are that they will be made anyway in the north.

Question will be, do they want a modicum of control and input into that as part of their own government or as an executive attached to an uncaring Westminster.

Shebean

jh79 wrote: »

They'll have to cut numbers in the PS and reduce quality of life levels in NI but why would this cohort vote for a UI?

If they don't you'll have a hard time convincing the Republic to pay to maintain this.

They might not. I'm sure those people serve a function. If not we can stop refilling as they retire. We could also offer voluntary redundancy. That said we may use it as an opportunity to address our own services like the HSE. A clean start might do both jurisdictions a good.
Reducing anyone's quality of life isn't necessarily a cert.
A U.I. is the only way forward out of this situation. The North might appreciate being a democratic equal partner in a democracy rather than an after thought answerable to Westminister.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Precisely. A transition period will make a lot of the necessary adjustments. Signs are that they will be made anyway in the north.

Question will be, do they want a modicum of control and input into that as part of their own government or as an executive attached to an uncaring Westminster.

How would a transition period work?

Day 1 of United Ireland, and a Protestant loses his job in Belfast and gets €75 dole.
Day 2 of United Ireland, and a Catholic loses his job in Dublin and gets €350 PUP

Sorry mate in Belfast, but it's a transition period, so tough luck.

The nonsense put forward about growth solving the problem, or a transition period is fairytale level stuff, once you consider hard realities.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

How would a transition period work?

Day 1 of United Ireland, and a Protestant loses his job in Belfast and gets €75 dole.
Day 2 of United Ireland, and a Catholic loses his job in Dublin and gets €350 PUP

Sorry mate in Belfast, but it's a transition period, so tough luck.

The nonsense put forward about growth solving the problem, or a transition period is fairytale level stuff, once you consider hard realities.

As I said...constant negativity to anything put forward. People will vote for a UI just to annoy you if that is the strategy. Flipping Unionists will.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

How would a transition period work?

Day 1 of United Ireland, and a Protestant loses his job in Belfast and gets €75 dole.
Day 2 of United Ireland, and a Catholic loses his job in Dublin and gets €350 PUP

Sorry mate in Belfast, but it's a transition period, so tough luck.

The nonsense put forward about growth solving the problem, or a transition period is fairytale level stuff, once you consider hard realities.

What has the religion of the person got to do with anything?

Also, what an absolute dose of an argument.

Shebean

I would campaign on the 100% self determination for the north as part of the nation, which it's never had. People on the island representing and calling the shots for people on the island. No Tory dreading the N.I. portfolio paying his or her dues hoping for a cabinet shuffle. Bring Ulster Scots in level pegging with English and Irish and the like, (call their bluff on Ulster Scots). Let same sex couples have no fear of being oppressed by a minority. Lots of social advantages for both communities in a U.I.

Hamsterchops

2909 posts in and are we any closer to working out just how to attain a United Ireland? Are we wooing the Nordies enough to make them come into 'the spiders parlour' as Dr Paisley once said. Maybe they're happy as they are?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's also your current view that the people of Ballymurphy and Derry were asking for it.

Can you either link where I said this or withdraw the accusation

BonnieSituation

Hamsterchops wrote: »

2909 posts in and are we any closer to working out just how to attain a United Ireland? Are we wooing the Nordies enough to make them come into 'the spiders parlour' as Dr Paisley once said. Maybe they're happy as they are?

Look at the GFA

downcow

FullyComp wrote: »

I was up in Downpatrick recently - it seemed to be a tourist hotspot from the ads.

Wow, what a grim town, why in the name of Good God would we want the people who think so little of their own area included on our country. Are there no tidy towns committees/community cleanups? I have to say I was properly dismayed. Beautiful scenery around the area though.

Exactly. I went to school in it and have always regarded it as a dirty hole. I thought it had something to do with me not liking school and also being regularly abused and attacked in it because I was a Protestant schoolboy marked by a uniform.
So very interesting to hear you feel similar. You couldn’t like it if you were reared in it.