United Ireland Poll - please vote

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Can you either link where I said this or withdraw the accusation

Wait? Are you, a Unionist, trying to hold another person to a standard to which you don't subscribe?

Ha ha ha.

Classic Unionist.

gormdubhgorm

I am not sure this is the relevant place to put it. (Mods can advise me if it is not)

But this saddened me a bit.

https://www.gaa.ie/news/spectators-to-return-in-six-counties-this-weekend/

Not the fact that fans are back at GAA games that is good thing. A great thing in fact.

But the fact that the GAA main website blatantly flaunted the 'Six Counties' terminology a supposed apolitical organisation. I realise RnaG do it as well as it jars there too. Really stands out.

Isn't it about time that there was more grown up/progressive attitude and the proper name was used the 'state of NI' or something similar.

In my view it does not bode well for a UI if there STILL is playing with words in a Modern 21st Ireland.

Does it send out the proper progressive message to those in NI who the ROI wishes to claim?

I understand all the partionist arguments etc from certain cohort. But isn't the very fact that the GAA are accepting different rules in one jurisdiction while accepting other rules in another jurisdiction re-covid19 partitionist in itself?

It is almost as if the 'six counties' terminology is a form delusion. Does it really send out the right message/optics towards the goal of a UI? Is it just me or is this article a summation of the ultimate hypocrisy in relation to those who desire to see a UI.

Hamsterchops

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Wait? Are you, a Unionist, trying to hold another person to a standard to which you don't subscribe?

Ha ha ha.

Classic Unionist.

Classic Unionist

Sounds like you don't like them Unionists, yet presumably you want to Unite with to form A United Ireland, right, yes/No?

The GFA says that you may indeed have Northern Ireland, but only if majority of people living there in NI wish to leave the UK and join with us, but if you're attitude is anything to go by I'm not so sure it's ever going to happen.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Classic Unionist

Sounds like you don't like them Unionists, yet presumably you want to Unite with to form A United Ireland, right, yes/No?

The GFA says that you may indeed have Northern Ireland, but only if majority of people living there in NI wish to leave the UK and join with us, but if you're attitude is anything to go by I'm not so sure it's ever going to happen.

Plenty of people I don't like here HC but I have no issue living with and respecting their rights.

StupidLikeAFox

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody will be asked to 'pay' for it.

There will be costs - the 'costs' of running a country, any country. Borne by everyone living here.

We pay our taxes because we want a certain type of society. As I keep saying, if the costs are couched in investment terms (which they will be) then I am confident that 67% and more will decide favourably.

The Europeans might call this leprechaun economics 2.0

You have looked at a poll, extracted the one answer that supports your viewpoint and disregard any answers (from the same poll) that don't. This figure of 67% has a huge caveat and you are deluding yourself if you think otherwise

FrancieBrady

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

The Europeans might call this leprechaun economics 2.0

You have looked at a poll, extracted the one answer that supports your viewpoint and disregard any answers (from the same poll) that don't. This figure of 67% has a huge caveat and you are deluding yourself if you think otherwise

Poll data is there to interpret and analyse.

Poll questions are also asked to elicit negative answers, oldest one in the pollsters book that.

1. The Leading Question
Leading questions are those that use biased language. This language influences the survey taker’s selection. The problem with a leading question is that it can seem innocuous, but actually be fishing for a certain answer.

Shebean

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am not sure this is the relevant place to put it. (Mods can advise me if it is not)

But this saddened me a bit.

https://www.gaa.ie/news/spectators-to-return-in-six-counties-this-weekend/

Not the fact that fans are back at GAA games that is good thing. A great thing in fact.

But the fact that the GAA main website blatantly flaunted the 'Six Counties' terminology a supposed apolitical organisation. I realise RnaG do it as well as it jars there too. Really stands out.

Isn't it about time that there was more grown up/progressive attitude and the proper name was used the 'state of NI' or something similar.

In my view it does not bode well for a UI if there STILL is playing with words in a Modern 21st Ireland.

Does it send out the proper progressive message to those in NI who the ROI wishes to claim?

I understand all the partionist arguments etc from certain cohort. But isn't the very fact that the GAA are accepting different rules in one jurisdiction while accepting other rules in another jurisdiction re-covid19 partitionist in itself?

It is almost as if the 'six counties' terminology is a form delusion. Does it really send out the right message/optics towards the goal of a UI? Is it just me or is this article a summation of the ultimate hypocrisy in relation to those who desire to see a UI.

Don't see an issue. Often hear 'six counties', also they state 'Ulster GAA'. Do you really think there's offence there?

Shebean

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Classic Unionist

Sounds like you don't like them Unionists, yet presumably you want to Unite with to form A United Ireland, right, yes/No?

The GFA says that you may indeed have Northern Ireland, but only if majority of people living there in NI wish to leave the UK and join with us, but if you're attitude is anything to go by I'm not so sure it's ever going to happen.

I don't know what Shangri-La you envision were everyone and every group like each other. Once we all have the same rights that's the important thing.

StupidLikeAFox

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Poll data is there to interpret and analyse.

Poll questions are also asked to elicit negative answers, oldest one in the pollsters book that.

54pc said they would be unwilling to pay more tax to fund a United Ireland. Just 22pc said they would pay more while 24pc didn’t know.

Its a straightforward enough question

FrancieBrady

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

54pc said they would be unwilling to pay more tax to fund a United Ireland. Just 22pc said they would pay more while 24pc didn’t know.

Its a straightforward enough question

So is 'do you want a UI?'. 'Do you want a border poll?

StupidLikeAFox

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So is 'do you want a UI?'. 'Do you want a border poll?

Yeah I agree with you. 67% like the idea of a UI. Only 22% are willing to pay extra taxes for that. You can't keep championing the 67% figure without acknowledging it comes with a caveat - it is only valid if there would be no tax increase

gormdubhgorm

Shebean wrote: »

Don't see an issue. Often hear 'six counties', also they state 'Ulster GAA'. Do you really think there's offence there?

I think there is. It is similar to those saying the tricolour is Green, White and Gold.
A deliberate tactic in order so they don't say Orange.

A sort of colluded delusion between a cohort.

StupidLikeAFox

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think there is. It is similar to those saying the tricolour is Green, White and Gold.
A deliberate tactic in order so they don't say Orange.

A sort of colluded delusion between a cohort.

I think you are over thinking it. Calling it the "six counties" is as neutral and apoliticalas you get - not sure what phrase you would use in its place?

FrancieBrady

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Yeah I agree with you. 67% like the idea of a UI. Only 22% are willing to pay extra taxes for that. You can't keep championing the 67% figure without acknowledging it comes with a caveat - it is only valid if there would be no tax increase

No...like most people - they don't want to pay tax. That is why it's a leading question.

Ask anybody 'do you want to pay more tax for a better health service' you'll get the same answer.

Will they pay more tax if they have to, to get what they want? We have been since the foundation of the state.

It was a leading question designed to temper the 67% figure IMO

StupidLikeAFox

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No...like most people - they don't want to pay tax. That is why it's a leading question.

Ask anybody 'do you want to pay more tax for a better health service' you'll get the same answer.

Will they pay more tax if they have to, to get what they want? We have been since the foundation of the state.

It was a leading question designed to temper the 67% figure IMO

Sure, so to my earlier point you are cherry picking the answers that suit your argument.

You can disregard peoples opinions on the cost of a united ireland, that doesn't make them go away.

FrancieBrady

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Sure, so to my earlier point you are cherry picking the answers that suit your argument.

You can disregard peoples opinions on the cost of a united ireland, that doesn't make them go away.

I'm expressing my interpretation of the poll.
The costs will be important and I have never tried to wave them away. I just have almost 60 years of experience of how these things are promoted by those who want them and it will be promoted as investing in our future. Which is a different way of asking the questions which will get a different answer.

jimmycrackcorm

Shebean wrote: »

I can't see N.I. ever being self sufficient. They are an after thought answerable to Westminister.
There will never be a time were the north is doing so well, people interested in such things, will want to unite. And if doing so well, why would their counterparts in the north concerned about such things want to rock the boat?
N.I. will flourish under a united Ireland, as will Ireland.
The rush is every day that passes is more shame on us leaving our fellow Irish people/families is such a situation.[/QUOTE]

Can you explain what the bold bit means - about leaving our fellow Irish people/families means?

There are plenty of emigrated Irish living good lives in GB with no inclination to move back, are we leaving them behind? You might have had a point back in the 1960s but that's not the case these days. Political power is being shared, job/housing discrimination is gone, Catholics have equal opportunities.


It's still early days in the post-Brexit world. Suggesting that NI won't benefit from having dual UK/EU market access is very foolish. There's no reason not to believe that they actually will have the best outcome from Brexit and then the question is, why would they want to unite and lose that?

Instead of leaving out fellow Irish behind, you're hiding the reality which is swapping the NHS for the HSE, higher taxes for those who work, a housing crisis for those who don't, fewer opportunities from reduced UK market access, more expensive VRT'd cars and consumable goods.

What are they going to get in return? The ability to play 32 county GAA? Enforced Gaeilge in schools? The right to be an Irish citizen and hold an Irish passport? The right to hang the tricolour outside their house? The right to drive across the border at Lifford/Strabane without being stopped?

How is anyone being left behind in the North? What is the actual advantage to unification over what they have currently and will have while they benefit from the dual EU / UK market access?

BonnieSituation

Shebean wrote: »

Don't see an issue. Often hear 'six counties', also they state 'Ulster GAA'. Do you really think there's offence there?

It's one.of those classic situations of getting offended on behalf of others.

I'd pay no need.

Hamsterchops

Two big 'Top 10' United Ireland threads running concurrently in Current Affairs!

Tension & anticipation building, like it's imminent, what's happening?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No...like most people - they don't want to pay tax. That is why it's a leading question.

Ask anybody 'do you want to pay more tax for a better health service' you'll get the same answer.

Will they pay more tax if they have to, to get what they want? We have been since the foundation of the state.

It was a leading question designed to temper the 67% figure IMO

Logic is terrible. It was the same people for God sake. 67% respnded they want a UI and then that same cohort responded they wouldn't pay extra in taxes for what they already said they want.

Jaysus Francie are you seriously saying they had already forgotten want they want in the few minutes it took to be given the follow up question!

It's not a leading question, tax will need to increase significantly.

downcow

Shebean wrote: »

Don't see an issue. Often hear 'six counties', also they state 'Ulster GAA'. Do you really think there's offence there?

Yip their certainly is offence caused by the six counties.
But sure let them stay their as the world moves on. The british lions even changed their name to accommodate the Irish players

downcow

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

I think you are over thinking it. Calling it the "six counties" is as neutral and apoliticalas you get - not sure what phrase you would use in its place?

What about using it’s official name?

droidman123

downcow wrote: »

Yip their certainly is offence caused by the six counties.
But sure let them stay their as the world moves on. The british lions even changed their name to accommodate the Irish players

I thought they changed the name "british lions" because there was non british players on the team.if the team was made up of british,italian or french players they could hardly call the team "the british lions" so they were hardly being "accomodating" when they changed the name to the lions.there are still a lot of uneducated engish people who still call them the british lions

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

Yip their certainly is offence caused by the six counties.
But sure let them stay their as the world moves on. The british lions even changed their name to accommodate the Irish players

The British and Irish lions represents players from Britain and Ireland. It makes as much sense to call them just the Irish lions as just the British lions. Anybody would think that is stupidly inaccurate.

But the 6 counties offensive. Really. I dont get offended by the 26 counties or by the South reference. Ireland was split into two jurisdictions by county boundaries so using counties as reference to which jurisdiction of Ireland you are referring to is not offensive particularly if you live here.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Logic is terrible. It was the same people for God sake. 67% respnded they want a UI and then that same cohort responded they wouldn't pay extra in taxes for what they already said they want.

Jaysus Francie are you seriously saying they had already forgotten want they want in the few minutes it took to be given the follow up question!

It's not a leading question, tax will need to increase significantly.

You don't even know what the question was.

Exactly why it was asked by the Pymdependent and the Unionist Belfast Telegraph.

Are you so naïve that you cannot see it? The question was not 'Would you pay?' and the answer therefore wasn't 'We would NOT pay?'

The question was 'Would you be in favour of paying higher taxes to fund the costs of a united Ireland?'

The answer to that in general from most people would be: 'No I am not in favour of paying higher taxes'.

And the Pymdependent and BT knew that would be the answer and also probably knew that people like yourself would extrapolate all sorts from it.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You don't even know what the question was.

Exactly why it was asked by the Pymdependent and the Unionist Belfast Telegraph.

Are you so naïve that you cannot see it? The question was not 'Would you pay?' and the answer therefore wasn't 'We would NOT pay?'

The question was 'I would be in favour of paying higher taxes to fund the costs of a united Ireland?'

The answer to that in general from most people would be: 'No I am not in favour of paying higher taxes'.

And the Pymdependent and BT knew that would be the answer and als probably knew that people like yourself would extrapolate all sorts from it.

What does "Pymdependent" mean? Thought it was a typo when I seen it yesterday.

Triangle

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Shebean wrote: »

I can't see N.I. ever being self sufficient. They are an after thought answerable to Westminister.
There will never be a time were the north is doing so well, people interested in such things, will want to unite. And if doing so well, why would their counterparts in the north concerned about such things want to rock the boat?
N.I. will flourish under a united Ireland, as will Ireland.
The rush is every day that passes is more shame on us leaving our fellow Irish people/families is such a situation.[/QUOTE]

Can you explain what the bold bit means - about leaving our fellow Irish people/families means?

There are plenty of emigrated Irish living good lives in GB with no inclination to move back, are we leaving them behind? You might have had a point back in the 1960s but that's not the case these days. Political power is being shared, job/housing discrimination is gone, Catholics have equal opportunities.


It's still early days in the post-Brexit world. Suggesting that NI won't benefit from having dual UK/EU market access is very foolish. There's no reason not to believe that they actually will have the best outcome from Brexit and then the question is, why would they want to unite and lose that?

Instead of leaving out fellow Irish behind, you're hiding the reality which is swapping the NHS for the HSE, higher taxes for those who work, a housing crisis for those who don't, fewer opportunities from reduced UK market access, more expensive VRT'd cars and consumable goods.

What are they going to get in return? The ability to play 32 county GAA? Enforced Gaeilge in schools? The right to be an Irish citizen and hold an Irish passport? The right to hang the tricolour outside their house? The right to drive across the border at Lifford/Strabane without being stopped?

How is anyone being left behind in the North? What is the actual advantage to unification over what they have currently and will have while they benefit from the dual EU / UK market access?

They obviously have no knowledge of the North with a post like that and are living in the past.

As a person that was born there and moved south during the troubles, I can say we didn't emigrate, it was like moving from limerick to Dublin.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

What does "Pymdependent" mean? Thought it was a typo when I seen it yesterday.

It's referencing the Indo's legendary anti-UI, partitionist stance.

Triangle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No...like most people - they don't want to pay tax. That is why it's a leading question.

Ask anybody 'do you want to pay more tax for a better health service' you'll get the same answer.

Will they pay more tax if they have to, to get what they want? We have been since the foundation of the state.

It was a leading question designed to temper the 67% figure IMO

Not exactly, it's a little old but 40% would pay extra tax for better services.

https://m.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/40-willing-to-pay-more-taxes-for-better-services-26480683.html

That's nearly double that would pay extra tax for a UI.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's referencing the Indo's legendary anti-UI, partitionist stance.

Sorry, just not getting the reference. Pym means?