Village Magazine hint at yet another new political party

PunkIPA

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Eric, is this you condescendingly making up **** to make "the left" look bad again or is there any actual evidence?

Gript have published leaked documents, including documents relating to the flight ban and Shannon closure.

https://gript.ie/green-dissidents-to-launch-new-hard-left-party-say-leaked-docs/

The party name (ARG) lines up with the screenshot posted by the Village.

According to the Gript article a disaffected member has leaked the documents to numerous news outlets.

To give them credit, I think the first logo looks snazzy!

PunkIPA

As an aside, "the left" don't need Eric or McGuirk's help to make themselves look bad.

Whatever about the various ppl on the left be that identity or economically, id vote for each of em from now til the day i die before id give oxygen to that absolute ballbag mcguirk and any of ths shadily-funded platforms he spouts his poison from

jay0109

PunkIPA wrote: »

Gript have published leaked documents, including documents relating to the flight ban and Shannon closure.

https://gript.ie/green-dissidents-to-launch-new-hard-left-party-say-leaked-docs/

The party name (ARG) lines up with the screenshot posted by the Village.

According to the Gript article a disaffected member has leaked the documents to numerous news outlets.

To give them credit, I think the first logo looks snazzy!

A disaffected member of a party not yet launched! That's a record even by the Left's standard operating procedure

Eric Cartman

jay0109 wrote: »

A disaffected member of a party not yet launched! That's a record even by the Left's standard operating procedure

the first meeting

"so are we allowed to have sex with the wolves"
"theres no wolves"
"im done here, you are completely unable to compromise"

StupidLikeAFox

PunkIPA wrote: »

According to the Gript article a disaffected member has leaked the documents to numerous news outlets.
snazzy!

Jaysus, they are splitting before they're even formed, surely a first??

CrabRevolution

While I can imagine a split in the Greens, these supposed "policies" don't sound believable. They sound like something someone would put in a caricature of the Greens.

Even then I'd be surprised at a Green split producing a more hardcore environmentalist party. From my point of view the Martin branch of the Greens are angry that the deal Ryan got gave too much focus on the environment and not enough focus on "social justice".

If any of those "policies" are true then their goal is complete martyrdom (if they somehow did get TDs elected) and being able to claim purity by never ever getting anywhere near a government.

awec

McGuirk is one of the Iona types isn't he?

I am not convinced that his "leak" is the same one as the Village is reporting. I think the Village is fairly daft but surely not daft enough to shill for a "party" that wants to ban dairy farming.

Eric Cartman

awec wrote: »

McGuirk is one of the Iona types isn't he?

I am not convinced that his "leak" is the same one as the Village is reporting.

suppose we can only wait and see. Should it be real then its completely insane.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eric Cartman wrote: »

as stated, its in the gript post, I said pinch of salt, Possibly their words, possibly John Mcguirk's, not mine.

Normally I don't have to make up anything to make the left look bad, they do it all by themselves :pac:

So it's the former then.

And yeah, you do. You take everything left of centre-right and tar them all with the same hippie/ecowarrior/woke/faux-anarchist brush.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So it's the former then.

And yeah, you do. You take everything left of centre-right and tar them all with the same hippie/ecowarrior/woke/faux-anarchist brush.

Theres a large cohort on the boards pretend we have a right wing govt

I think youve to allow for sloppy categorisations tbh

HBC08

When the wokies go to the polls I think theyll get a bit of a land when it becomes clear that twitter isnt real life.
I wonder will they change tact then? 5 years from now we might be looking back on all this silliness and laughing

If it's true it's just so ****ing arrogant. An exercise in bathing in smug superiority without any chance of ever influencing goverment

PunkIPA

awec wrote: »

McGuirk is one of the Iona types isn't he?

I am not convinced that his "leak" is the same one as the Village is reporting. I think the Village is fairly daft but surely not daft enough to shill for a "party" that wants to ban dairy farming.

If you look at the tweet from the Village, the first document in the screenshot is called "ARG Internal Communications Plan". This tallies up with the name from the Gript article, "An Rabharta Glas".

It looks like the Village got a big file with possibly dozens of documents in each of the folders. My bet is that Gript got the same file and have just found some of the juicier bits.

The Gript article names 20 people as attendees at a founding meeting, I doubt they would be running the defamation risk if they weren't sure of the accuracy of the documents, especially given McGuirk's episode on RTE last week!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PunkIPA wrote: »

Gript have published leaked documents, including documents relating to the flight ban and Shannon closure.

https://gript.ie/green-dissidents-to-launch-new-hard-left-party-say-leaked-docs/

The party name (ARG) lines up with the screenshot posted by the Village.

According to the Gript article a disaffected member has leaked the documents to numerous news outlets.

To give them credit, I think the first logo looks snazzy!

Gript and Jphn McGuirk come across as being the Steve Bannon of Ireland, so I'll pass on anything about a "leaked" document saying anything about Green policies being accurate. So I stand by my initial assessment - Eric's been blinded by anti-left hatred and can'te tell the difference between rational and hysterical.

jam_mac_jam

A limit on the amount of flights you can take sounds like a real vote winner anyway.

jam_mac_jam

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

A limit on the amount of flights you can take sounds like a real vote winner anyway.

Was it for the the wild geese
Spread their grey wings upon each tide?

PunkIPA

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Gript and Jphn McGuirk come across as being the Steve Bannon of Ireland, so I'll pass on anything about a "leaked" document saying anything about Green policies being accurate. So I stand by my initial assessment - Eric's been blinded by anti-left hatred and can'te tell the difference between rational and hysterical.

With respect, I think you are playing the man and not the ball here. You can dislike McGuirk and his politics all you like, but it's a verifiable fact that Gript have broken stories in the recent past that mainstream outlets wouldn't touch.

In just the last few weeks they obtained leaked emails from the ISAG zero-Covid group which a member of that group went on to publicly authenticate. Those were prominent academics and physicians, and Gript somehow managed to get a hold of confidential documents.

To reiterate the point - the Gript article names 20 senior members or former members of the Green party as having attended these formative meetings. One is Saoirse McHugh, another is a former Chair of the Young Greens, another is a sitting Councillor. If the documents were false, don't you think there would be some statement from one of them to deny it? These are all extremely "online" people with very active social media platforms. It's inconceivable that a right-wing outlet like Gript could be promoting forged documents with a view to clipping the wings of a new left-wing party and the people allegedly involved wouldn't deny it straight away.

When the Leo leaks story broke in the Village, the initial FG comms strategy was to deny the accuracy of the leak because it came from a "left-wing fringe publication". This is a transparently stupid line to take. The documents are either real or they aren't, the politics of the publisher shouldn't matter.

Again, with respect, I think you may be the "blinded" one here.

Are you suggesting that in the hours after the Village tweet, McGuirk went off and fabricated a number of documents, including four potential party logos, and then went on to publicly name 20 prominent members of the Green party as being the authors of phony policies?

That sounds to me rather more "hysterical" than "rational".

HalloweenJack

The more choices, the better, imo.

Watching the way the UK and the US have gone shows the incressing need for more views and consensus building in national governments. Coalitions that represent bigger proprotions of the population is far better than single-party rule or the little-and-large coalitions we usually have here.

Mad_maxx

awec wrote: »

McGuirk is one of the Iona types isn't he?

I am not convinced that his "leak" is the same one as the Village is reporting. I think the Village is fairly daft but surely not daft enough to shill for a "party" that wants to ban dairy farming.

No , he has no connection to IONA

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PunkIPA wrote: »

With respect, I think you are playing the man and not the ball here. You can dislike McGuirk and his politics all you like, but it's a verifiable fact that Gript have broken stories in the recent past that mainstream outlets wouldn't touch.

In just the last few weeks they obtained leaked emails from the ISAG zero-Covid group which a member of that group went on to publicly authenticate. Those were prominent academics and physicians, and Gript somehow managed to get a hold of confidential documents.

To reiterate the point - the Gript article names 20 senior members or former members of the Green party as having attended these formative meetings. One is Saoirse McHugh, another is a former Chair of the Young Greens, another is a sitting Councillor. If the documents were false, don't you think there would be some statement from one of them to deny it? These are all extremely "online" people with very active social media platforms. It's inconceivable that a right-wing outlet like Gript could be promoting forged documents with a view to clipping the wings of a new left-wing party and the people allegedly involved wouldn't deny it straight away.

When the Leo leaks story broke in the Village, the initial FG comms strategy was to deny the accuracy of the leak because it came from a "left-wing fringe publication". This is a transparently stupid line to take. The documents are either real or they aren't, the politics of the publisher shouldn't matter.

Again, with respect, I think you may be the "blinded" one here.

Are you suggesting that in the hours after the Village tweet, McGuirk went off and fabricated a number of documents, including four potential party logos, and then went on to publicly name 20 prominent members of the Green party as being the authors of phony policies?

That sounds to me rather more "hysterical" than "rational".

Fair point, but what exactly is the realism behind these policies? I mean, yeah, they had a meeting and discussed these ideas - I'm not denying this - but what were the results of the meetings?

Someone may have suggested capping flights per year only for the idea to be binned immediaely by the party, but here we have it being presented by Gript as if it was a serious idea and then portrayed as "more looney and more meft" by a poster known for his condescending portrayal of everything left of moderate right.

Even if this party is formed and comes forward with said ideas: what are you worried about? They'll never get off the ground and never get a serious amounts of votes. Fringe parties never do well in Ireland.

And yet here we are, dsicussing this as if someone has already suggested it in the Dial.

timmyntc

awec wrote: »

https://twitter.com/VillageMagIRE/status/1374274483570233348

Second line down:
"Articles on Non-hierarchical organization"

A political party with no hierarchy - no leaders?
I think that says it all about what type of crackpot party this will be.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

timmyntc wrote: »

Second line down:
"Articles on Non-hierarchical organization"

A political party with no hierarchy - no leaders?
I think that says it all about what type of crackpot party this will be.

A folder containging (or not containign) articles on non-hierarchical organisations doe not mean that they have already decided that they will be a party with no leaders!!

I have a folder containing "music" on my desktop, but beleive me - I'm not a musician!

timmyntc

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

A folder containging (or not containign) articles on non-hierarchical organisations doe not mean that they have already decided that they will be a party with no leaders!!

I have a folder containing "music" on my desktop, but beleive me - I'm not a musician!

non-hierarchical organization - singular. Not articles about other parties or organisations, it sounds like pressers for their own party and their own lac of hierarchy.

Its a calculated leak made to a newspaper, they didnt include random folders that were lying around their desktop!

blanch152

CrabRevolution wrote: »

While I can imagine a split in the Greens, these supposed "policies" don't sound believable. They sound like something someone would put in a caricature of the Greens.

Even then I'd be surprised at a Green split producing a more hardcore environmentalist party. From my point of view the Martin branch of the Greens are angry that the deal Ryan got gave too much focus on the environment and not enough focus on "social justice".

If any of those "policies" are true then their goal is complete martyrdom (if they somehow did get TDs elected) and being able to claim purity by never ever getting anywhere near a government.

The thing is there are around 60 TDs in the Dail who have achieved that goal already, ranging from Sinn Fein, Indepdents, PBP, Solidarity etc., who have zero intention of ever getting near a government. This party would look to target some of those seats.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

timmyntc wrote: »

non-hierarchical organization - singular. Not articles about other parties or organisations, it sounds like pressers for their own party and their own lac of hierarchy.

Its a calculated leak made to a newspaper, they didnt include random folders that were lying around their desktop!

It is still incredibly niave to think that this means they are automatically going to try to be a leader-less party, as you put it. Being non-hierarchial doesn't even mean having no leaders.

And as for "calculated leak" - you got any proof on that or is it more random speculation?

Amirani

timmyntc wrote: »

Second line down:
"Articles on Non-hierarchical organization"

A political party with no hierarchy - no leaders?
I think that says it all about what type of crackpot party this will be.

I guess it would be a holacracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holacracy

Haven't been many successful examples of this in practice, though lots of groups (particularly on the left) tend towards it, perhaps because it fits into a sort of idealised anarcho socialist mould. What tends to happen in these groups though is that dominant personalities become de-facto leaders, and there are no channels of recourse for less dominant personalities, so it become a bit of a tyranny. Think Lord of the Flies.

Flatter structures can be beneficial to organisations, but eliminating hierarchies and leaders entirely is no panacea to anything.

timmyntc

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It is still incredibly niave to think that this means they are automatically going to try to be a leader-less party, as you put it. Being non-hierarchial doesn't even mean having no leaders.

And as for "calculated leak" - you got any proof on that or is it more random speculation?

Nobody has any proof of this - we can only go based on what we've all seen so far.
Occams razors suggests that its more likely the non-hierarchical articles are in reference to the party itself, like all the other folders seem to be. And it would fit with the type of party we are led to believe this is - far left. What could be more far left than eliminating hierarchy altogether?

Amirani wrote: »

I guess it would be a holacracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holacracy

Haven't been many successful examples of this in practice, though lots of groups (particularly on the left) tend towards it, perhaps because it fits into a sort of idealised anarcho socialist mould. What tends to happen in these groups though is that dominant personalities become de-facto leaders, and there are no channels of recourse for less dominant personalities, so it become a bit of a tyranny. Think Lord of the Flies.

Flatter structures can be beneficial to organisations, but eliminating hierarchies and leaders entirely is no panacea to anything.

Flatter structures can lead to better innovation and productivity, but you need hierarchy of some sort. Political parties included. Too much hierarchy is bloat, but not enough is chaos.

dam099

awec wrote: »

A real vote winner in rural Ireland.

Never mind rural Ireland, I would think most of urban Ireland are fond of an odd drop of milk or otherwise consume dairy products too.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

timmyntc wrote: »

Nobody has any proof of this - we can only go based on what we've all seen so far.
Occams razors suggests that its more likely the non-hierarchical articles are in reference to the party itself, like all the other folders seem to be. And it would fit with the type of party we are led to believe this is - far left. What could be more far left than eliminating hierarchy altogether?

No it wouldn't - there are plenty of far more likely scenarios than yours; Yours comes across of wanting something to be the case rather than it being the most likely scenario. What you're proposing here goes beyond non-hierarchial - it's not even democratic.

Flatter structures can lead to better innovation and productivity, but you need hierarchy of some sort. Political parties included. Too much hierarchy is bloat, but not enough is chaos.

I'd agree. You need the kind of leadership that can step back while still maintaining order and direction.

For the record, I don't think this party will get very far based on hat I've read either - I just think that the idea that people are even talking about them is because of fear of more rational moderate left wing ideaoloiges gaining support that they feel the need to push them in with these guys, and THIS is where the Steve Bannon comparison comes in.

Something like:
These guys are left wing
These guys are fanciful lunatics
Therefore the left wing are fanciful lunatics.