Covid 19 Part XXXIV-249,437 ROI(4,906 deaths) 120,195 NI (2,145 deaths)(01/05)Read OP

namloc1980

is_that_so wrote: »

2 big numbers should be coming up very soon - under 200 in hospital and under 50 in ICU!

Just in time for increased travel restrictions.

seamus

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Honestly it’s a disgrace. And a kick in the teeth to everyone who have had their lives turned upside down in order the protect the vulnerable and elderly.

It's bullsh1t. Journalists looking for things to say.

I don't know if it's Donnelly's awful communication, or the Examiner's quality of journalism, but they've published a lot stuff this week that's been completely incorrect.

By the time the All-Ireland final is played, the vaccination programme for adults will be 99% completed.

I have no trust in NPHET or the government to reach the vaccine targets and once we do it will be another excuse as to why restrictions must remain.

NPHET have absolutely zero say over the vaccine rollout.

The vaccination programme has met all of the targets that are within their control. There is literally zero reason to think they won't meet them in future. Your distrust is irrelevant to the facts.

I’d love to pack up my family and get out of here, honestly. Was speaking to a friend of mine on the phone who lives in Australia and it would just rot you.

Australia where they've basically no vaccines at all and international travel will be quarantined until late 2022? Fire away.

Leftwaffe

is_that_so wrote: »

Vaccines in enough people will change things and we'll restrictions change from Monday next, slowly perhaps, but still changing. We're still a couple of months away yet but going the right way.

There’s been a million vaccines delivered so far. The most at risk categories are all but done. Yet here we are. We were told at the begging to flatten the curve and protect the vulnerable. Job done, give us our lives back.

The relaxation of restrictions announced recently is a joke. It makes zero difference. We have one of the hardest and longest lockdowns in the western world. It’s inhumane what’s going on

is_that_so

Leftwaffe wrote: »

There’s been a million vaccines delivered so far. The most at risk categories are all but done. Yet here we are. We were told at the begging to flatten the curve and protect the vulnerable. Job done, give us our lives back.

The relaxation of restrictions announced recently is a joke. It makes zero difference. We have one of the hardest and longest lockdowns in the western world. It’s inhumane what’s going on

That 1m is about 20% first shots and under 10% fully vaccinated. When we get to 50% and above you should start to see changes and if the promised supplies pan out that will be May/June time.

Leftwaffe

seamus wrote: »

It's bullsh1t. Journalists looking for things to say.

I don't know if it's Donnelly's awful communication, or the Examiner's quality of journalism, but they've published a lot stuff this week that's been completely incorrect.

By the time the All-Ireland final is played, the vaccination programme for adults will be 99% completed.

NPHET have absolutely zero say over the vaccine rollout.

The vaccination programme has met all of the targets that are within their control. There is literally zero reason to think they won't meet them in future. Your distrust is irrelevant to the facts.

Australia where they've basically no vaccines at all and international travel will be quarantined until late 2022? Fire away.

I edited my post to take out NPHET as I had begun writing one thing there and changed to another.

The vaccine rollout is a disgrace. It’s painfully slow due to supply issues and it’s riddled with scandals and cronyism left right and centre.

Australia where life is normal, you can socialise with your friends, visit a restaurant, travel. Do what you want. Australia have done better than us in this in probably every single metric outside of vaccinations.

Doctor Jimbob

Leftwaffe wrote: »

There’s been a million vaccines delivered so far. The most at risk categories are all but done. Yet here we are. We were told at the begging to flatten the curve and protect the vulnerable. Job done, give us our lives back.

The relaxation of restrictions announced recently is a joke. It makes zero difference. We have one of the hardest and longest lockdowns in the western world. It’s inhumane what’s going on

I don't mind the slow pace of restriction relaxation too much, relatively speaking - they do seem to be consistently opening more as vaccination increases, and I can understand the desire for caution to avoid ending up in a worse position down the line when we're close to the finish line.

What really concerns me is the additional restrictions being added. Over a year into this, a million vaccinations, and we're now making people quarantine in hotels, regardless of test or vaccination status, and talking about increasing the number of countries on the quarantine list - including countries which have more people vaccinated than us. It's absolute fecking insanity.

I can get on board with going slow. I absolutely can not get on board with going backwards.

Leftwaffe

is_that_so wrote: »

That 1m is about 20% first shots and under 10% fully vaccinated. When we get to 50% and above you should start to see changes and if the promised supplies pan out that will be May/June time.

10% fully vaccinated. Grand it only took 100 days. Another 900 days and we’ll be allowed go for a meal outside in April 2023.

vienne86

Leftwaffe wrote: »

10% fully vaccinated. Grand it only took 100 days. Another 900 days and we’ll be allowed go for a meal outside in April 2023.

Go back to bed

Leftwaffe

vienne86 wrote: »

Go back to bed

Ah that’s it yeah. Everything is fine. Nothing to see here folks. Let’s not talk about it. I’m alright jack.

prunudo

Faugheen wrote: »

NPHET make recommendations related to public health. Nothing else. To peddle the nonsense of them knowing how much power they have is completely divisive. Government make the decisions. They decide to hide behind NPHET when it comes to the really tough decisions and do anything to prevent other recommendations to try to avoid future lockdowns.

But no. All NPHET’s fault.

I never said it was ALL Nphets fault, I said they're not completely blameless. And their over cautious approach has been a detriment to the country for the last year. For example, no reason why construction and outdoor activities couldn't have been eased from March 5th. I don't understand the willingness to defend nphet at every opportunity, they are not some higher body free from critique.

AdamD

Deleted User wrote: »

NPHET cannot be blamed for public policy. They are an advisory body.

Public policy is the job of government - ideally implemented by an effective, forward-thinking government with leadership aptitude.

But it's very difficult to govern when you cannot assemble a collective spine between all ministers in the current government.

And it's even more difficult to conduct that very necessary spinal rearrangement when you have meager-weak Michael Martin in charge. He comes across as more of a junior minister than anything approximating what we conceive of as Taoiseach.

This would be an absolutely fair point if NPHET didn't play to the media every single time the government went against their wishes to the point of it being political suicide to do so.

NPHET make recommendations purely on medical grounds with no other considerations and have used the media to ensure the government can't bring those considerations in either.

They are far from infallible, but Christmas will forever be used as the reason the government can't disagree with them.

And I absolutely believe their refusal to encourage and allow outdoor activities has made our overall situation worse

Leftwaffe

prunudo wrote: »

I never said it was ALL Nphets fault, I said they're not completely blameless. And their over cautious approach has been a detriment to the country for the last year. For example, no reason why construction and outdoor activities couldn't have been eased from March 5th. I don't understand the willingness to defend nphet at every opportunity, they are not some higher body free from critique.

NPHET make the recommendations, government makes no changes and implement the advice. NPHET make the decisions, not directly but indirectly.

Government (complete shambles) afraid to take ownership of it since the Christmas debacle and here we are. Never has so much power been in the hands of unelected representatives. Scientists running the country.

is_that_so

Leftwaffe wrote: »

10% fully vaccinated. Grand it only took 100 days. Another 900 days and we’ll be allowed go for a meal outside in April 2023.

Deep breath now! What's supposed to arrive in the next few weeks will be about 40% of what we've done so far. We knew Q1 would be slow. As long as AZ don't mess us about, Q2 will be vastly improved in terms of numbers. That means that the 2 million mark may well come mid May.

Doctor Jimbob

prunudo wrote: »

I never said it was ALL Nphets fault, I said they're not completely blameless. And their over cautious approach has been a detriment to the country for the last year. For example, no reason why construction and outdoor activities couldn't have been eased from March 5th. I don't understand the willingness to defend nphet at every opportunity, they are not some higher body free from critique.

The poster has a point to be fair. Last autumn/early winter, the gist of interaction between government and NPHET was as follows.

NPHET: "We need to do x and y to slow spread."

Government: "No"

NPHET: "OK"

Followed by leaks to media about how government put nasty NPHET back in their place and saved the restaurants/christmas/other topic of interest.

A couple of weeks later

Government: "Our cases are rising, what can we do?"

NPHET: "At this point, no choice but lockdown, too late to do anything else"

Government: "OK".

Followed by leaks to media about how government have no choice but to do what those big meanies in NPHET said.

I don't agree with everything NPHET advise, far from it, but it's undeniable that government are setting them up to take the fall for any unfavourable decisions.

caveat emptor

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Is there any reason we're using Chile, a country that uses large amounts of a vaccine we don't have here as an example of vaccination success rather than looking at the US, UK, or Israel?

I could take a guess what the reason is, but if anyone wants to put forward a sensible reason I'm all ears.

I'd say it's because Chile start opening up too quickly before vaccinations had an effect. We can look at Israel but people won't like it. Israel have done well and not gone "great 1 in 6 are vaccinated open the pubs now'

In fact they implemented a vaccine green pass so those vaccinated could go to bars etc. That's a satanic suggestion here so we'll have to wait for ethereal herd immunity.

They also completely locked down the border from Jan 24th to march 20th and implemented a strict lockdown while there vaccination rate was soaring to the highest in the world. They've only recently allowed non residents back in under very strict conditions.

Even as Israel has emerged as the world’s fastest-vaccinating country, its pace of new COVID-19 cases has set records as well.

Now, in a desperate effort to bring the outbreak under control, the country is taking the unprecedented step of completely locking down its borders.

Ben Gurion Airport has been closed to virtually all traffic in both directions. Since March, citizens have been able to travel freely as long as they follow quarantine rules upon entry, but now even they cannot enter or leave the country. (Non-citizens have largely been excluded, though a patchwork of exemptions has allowed some in.)

https://english.alarabiya.net/coronavirus/2021/02/19/Coronavirus-Israel-extending-closure-of-airports-land-borders-for-two-more-weeks-due-to-COVID-19

Since Israel entered its first lockdown in March 2020, non-residents – with rare exceptions – have not been allowed into the country. In late January, as part of the third lockdown, even Israeli citizens were prevented from entering. However, that particular restriction was lifted a few weeks ago.

All non-citizens or non-residents, even if they have been vaccinated or have recovered from COVID-19, will be required to self-isolate for 14 days upon arrival (or 10 days if they agree to undergo two additional PCR tests after landing).

They will also need to test negative for the coronavirus within 72 hours of boarding their flight, and once again upon landing. Furthermore, they will not be allowed to fly to Israel without health insurance that covers medical treatment for the coronavirus.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-set-to-reopen-its-borders-to-some-non-citizens-here-s-who-can-enter-1.9687098

Leftwaffe

is_that_so wrote: »

Deep breath now! What's supposed to arrive in the next few weeks will be about 40% of what we've done so far. We knew Q1 would be slow. As long as AZ don't mess us about, Q2 will be vastly improved in terms of numbers. That means that the 2 million mark may well come mid May.

Thanks. I just have no faith in the vaccine rollout meeting targets, which change every day, and I’ve no faith in vaccines leading us back to normality, which they should. I hope I am proven wrong.

I am not anti vaccine at all I’d any one of them right now. I just feel the people in power are the issue and will be the issue in the long run.

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

I'd say it's because Chile start opening up too quickly before vaccinations had an effect. Israel have done well and not gone "great 1 in 6 are vaccinated open the pubs now'

In fact they implemented a vaccine green pass so those vaccinated could go to bars etc.

That's a satanic suggestion here so we'll have to wait for ethereal herd immunity.

Thing is no one, on this thread at least, is saying "great 1 in 6 are vaccinated open the pubs now". In fact the prevailing opinion is broadly in support of the general approach to reopening, with some questioning the continued restrictions of some outdoor activities

caveat emptor

Deleted User wrote: »

Thing is no one, on this thread at least, is saying "great 1 in 6 are vaccinated open the pubs now". In fact the prevailing opinion is broadly in support of the general approach to reopening, with some questioning the continued restrictions of some outdoor activities

For sure there is a wide tapestry of opinion. Are you seriously saying the vintners aren't saying open up? :pac:

mightyreds

Deleted User wrote: »

Thing is no one, on this thread at least, is saying "great 1 in 6 are vaccinated open the pubs now". In fact the prevailing opinion is broadly in support of the general approach to reopening, with some questioning the continued restrictions of some outdoor activities

You cant have that, your either in the "let it rip" or "lock people in their houses" camps, no middle ground here

AdamD

AdamD wrote: »

They are far from infallible, but Christmas will forever be used as the reason the government can't disagree with them.

Which is a nonsense.

Let's assume that Xmas was canceled by NPHET.

First, it would never have been abided by. Not a chance in hell that everyone would have stayed at home and pretended Xmas wasn't happening.

Second, even if it were true that people did stay at home - leading to restrictions being relaxed in January, this would have caused a hemorrhage of social activity - an enormous pent-up pressure released, so much so that it would have caused far more social interaction than otherwise. That means a huge peak in cases, too.

So no, I think NPHET should get off their high horse about Christmas. And if we're going to talk about the Xmas wave, we should perhaps discuss the stupid decision to close down the country in October, only to lead to massive social interaction in the 3-weeks preceding Christmas. NPHETs own policy led directly to a surge in cases.

big syke

caveat emptor wrote: »

I'd say it's because Chile start opening up too quickly before vaccinations had an effect. We can look at Israel but people won't like it. Israel have done well and not gone "great 1 in 6 are vaccinated open the pubs now'

In fact they implemented a vaccine green pass so those vaccinated could go to bars etc. That's a satanic suggestion here so we'll have to wait for ethereal herd immunity.

They also completely locked down the border from Jan 24th to march 20th and implemented a strict lockdown while there vaccination rate was soaring to the highest in the world. They've only recently allowed non residents back in under very strict conditions.




https://english.alarabiya.net/coronavirus/2021/02/19/Coronavirus-Israel-extending-closure-of-airports-land-borders-for-two-more-weeks-due-to-COVID-19




https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-set-to-reopen-its-borders-to-some-non-citizens-here-s-who-can-enter-1.9687098

I suppose it's hard to compare to us to any county really. Israel is funny one because they have two minorities groups who en masse and in significant numbers ignored the lockdown and also wont vaccinate . I tend to think this may have prolonged their poor numbers and subsequent lockdown.

Turtwig

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Is there any reason we're using Chile, a country that uses large amounts of a vaccine we don't have here as an example of vaccination success rather than looking at the US, UK, or Israel?

I could take a guess what the reason is, but if anyone wants to put forward a sensible reason I'm all ears.

There's not many comparisons to make. We're ahead of the majority of the world vaccination wise.

The only assumption about Chile is that the sinovac vaccine is less effective than the ones deployed elsewhere. Which is possible they've been far from forthcoming with their trial data.
If you assume the vaccine is effective then they reopened far far too quickly. If you assume the vaccines a dud they reopened far far far far far far too quickly.

Israel's used mRNA. Doesn't have South African variant. Had a heavily accelerated vaccination program and heavily used, and continues to use, vaccine passports to accelerate reopening.

The UK had a higher disease profile than us. Is about six weeks ahead in the vaccination campaign. (We may actually close that gap). They are reopening at a considerably slower pace than Israel. They are also considering vaccine passports. Given our lower baseline of disease we can probably go quicker than they went but not my much. Certainly not as quick as posters here want.

The US has the best vaccination programme (helps if you don't export anything!). Depending on the individual states it's very difficult to predict how things will go. There's also inequality in vaccine uptake. It's very hard to make comparisons.

So, yeah three options really.
Chile,
Israel
UK.

All need to be looked at and learned from. Chile is the example of what can go wrong. Israel is the example of when it goes right (leaving aside segregated ethics) . The UK will hopefully serve as our best indicator.

seamus

Leftwaffe wrote: »

The vaccine rollout is a disgrace. It’s painfully slow due to supply issues and it’s riddled with scandals and cronyism left right and centre.

So the vaccine rollout is a disgrace, due to issues completely outside of the control of the vaccination programme?

The amount of scandals and cronyism is proportionally tiny. The amount of misused doses that we know about so far represents about 0.03% of the total number of administered doses.

Don't let your opinion be dictated by the person who's shouting the loudest and the amount of focus it gets in the media.

DebDynamite

DebDynamite wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40261202.html

First hairdressers, now concerts. Talk of this vaccine bonus is really starting to annoy me. We locked down the whole country for nearly a year to protect the vulnerable, and now the vulnerable will be able to live a relatively normal life while the non-vulnerable continue to stay locked down. So much for we’re all in this together!

Whatever about bringing the vaccine passport/bonus in when every adult has been given the option of a vaccine, it’s grossly unfair to bring it in when only the vulnerable, healthcare workers or well connected people have had access to the vaccine.

The goalposts are being shifted yet again, and Paddy just nods absently and chews the cud. More people should be up in arms over this grossly inequitable approach. We had that "protect the vulnerable" mantra drummed into us, now that this is finally materialising should be a cause for celebration. Nah, let's trample all over majority of the population at very little risk. Here's one, allow the vaccinated elderly/vulnerable and the unvaccinated youth mingle freely at concerts. Watch the hospital/ICU admissions remain unchanged with the exception of a handful of outliers. "Vaccine bonus" is trite codology that deserves a flying kick to the kerb.

Doctor Jimbob

Turtwig wrote: »

There's not many comparisons to make. We're ahead of the majority of the world vaccination wise.

The only assumption about Chile is that the sinovac vaccine is less effective than the ones deployed elsewhere. Which is possible they've been far from forthcoming with their trial data.
If you assume the vaccine is effective then they reopened far far too quickly. If you assume the vaccines a dud they reopened far far far far far far too quickly.

Israel's used mRNA. Doesn't have South African variant. Had a heavily accelerated vaccination program and heavily used, and continues to use, vaccine passports to accelerate reopening.

The UK had a higher disease profile than us. Is about six weeks ahead in the vaccination campaign. (We may actually close that gap). They are reopening at a considerably slower pace than Israel. They are also considering vaccine passports. Given our lower baseline of disease we can probably go quicker than they went but not my much. Certainly not as quick as posters here want.

The US has the best vaccination programme (helps if you don't export anything!). Depending on the individual states it's very difficult to predict how things will go. There's also inequality in vaccine uptake. It's very hard to make comparisons.

So, yeah three options really.
Chile,
Israel
UK.

All need to be looked at and learned from. Chile is the example of what can go wrong. Israel is the example of when it goes right (leaving aside segregated ethics) . The UK will hopefully serve as our best indicator.

That's absolutely a fair post. The only part I disagree with is your dismissal of the US as a relevant comparison though. If we're continuing to include Chile as a comparison despite their use of Sinovac then I can't see why we shouldn't use the US as a comparison too.

To be clear, I'm not saying we should ignore Chile altogether, I just have an issue with posts that use Chile exclusively. Exclusively focusing on one country has been happening since last spring. It doesn't matter if it's "why can't we open up like Sweden"; "we don't want to end up like Italy"; or "vaccines aren't working in Chile". Focusing on one country where things are going right or wrong is an oversimplification.

Leftwaffe

seamus wrote: »

So the vaccine rollout is a disgrace, due to issues completely outside of the control of the vaccination programme?

The amount of scandals and cronyism is proportionally tiny. The amount of misused doses that we know about so far represents about 0.03% of the total number of administered doses.

Don't let your opinion be dictated by the person who's shouting the loudest and the amount of focus it gets in the media.

Yes it is a disgrace. The EU, who we just love bowing down to, have been diabolical when it comes to the vaccine rollout. Also, why haven’t we procured vaccines from outside the EU plan? If the situation is as volatile as NPHET are saying, why aren’t we trying to secure more vaccines and approve them for use ourselves?

Doctor Jimbob

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Yes it is a disgrace. The EU, who we just love bowing down to, have been diabolical when it comes to the vaccine rollout. Also, why haven’t we procured vaccines from outside the EU plan? If the situation is as volatile as NPHET are saying, why aren’t we trying to secure more vaccines and approve them for use ourselves?

The EU rollout isn't perfect, but diabolical is a bit of a stretch.

I am absolutely certain that we'd be much, much worse off for vaccines if we had relied on our government to organise them. The EU are a bit slow compared to a few countries, but still well ahead of the majority of the world.

robbiezero

caveat emptor wrote: »

For sure there is a wide tapestry of opinion. Are you seriously saying the vintners aren't saying open up? :pac:

Link - Where are vintners saying that they want to open up indoors now?

Multipass

DebDynamite wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40261202.html

First hairdressers, now concerts. Talk of this vaccine bonus is really starting to annoy me. We locked down the whole country for nearly a year to protect the vulnerable, and now the vulnerable will be able to live a relatively normal life while the non-vulnerable continue to stay locked down. So much for we’re all in this together!

Whatever about bringing the vaccine passport/bonus in when every adult has been given the option of a vaccine, it’s grossly unfair to bring it in when only the vulnerable, healthcare workers or well connected people have had access to the vaccine.

Wait till all the ‘vulnerable’ start jetting off on their holidays, and the rest of us are sitting home like chumps to ‘protect’ them.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

The goalposts are being shifted yet again, and Paddy just nods absently and chews the cud. More people should be up in arms over this grossly inequitable approach. We had that "protect the vulnerable" mantra drummed into us, now that this is finally materialising should be a cause for celebration. Nah, let's trample all over majority of the population at very little risk. Here's one, allow the vaccinated elderly/vulnerable and the unvaccinated youth mingle freely at concerts. Watch the hospital/ICU admissions remain unchanged with the exception of a handful of outliers. "Vaccine bonus" is trite codology that deserves a flying kick to the kerb.

And they're talking about 'additional freedoms'. How can 'additional freedoms' to 0 freedoms be additional?