Covid 19 Part XXXIV-249,437 ROI(4,906 deaths) 120,195 NI (2,145 deaths)(01/05)Read OP

bucketybuck

podgeandrodge wrote: »

But it seems clear that the experts are saying (EXCEPT NPHET), and continuing to say, that outdoor gatherings, including crowds on the beach and elsewhere, are not really a contributory factor,.

If this is the case, having a meal and a pint outdoor and assisting businesses in their very survival should be permitted, and NOW.

It is a huge problem in this country. There are things that the government could do right now, today, to ease the burden on the general population and yet they sit on their hands and do nothing.

When you could do something to help with almost zero risk involved, and you don't do it, what does that say about the type of people currently in charge?

podgeandrodge

Govt. hates alcohol remember. Citizens cannot be trusted. Throw out that mandatory alchohol pricing will "save 200 lives per year" (cos nobody will be able to prove them wrong), and here we go in the middle of a pandemic with many having less disposable income:

"...internal government document details how MUP would increase the price of low-cost alcohol such as a 70cl bottle of Tesco's own-brand vodka from around €12.99 to €20.71 (up €7.72); a similar-sized bottle of gin from €14.25 to €20.71 (up €6.46); a €3.99 bottle of wine to €6.50 (€2.51)..."

The draft memo states: "In the context of the pandemic, the draft memo references WHO advice that heavy alcohol use weakens the immune system and reduces the body's ability to fight off infectious disease as well as increasing the risk of acute respiratory distress syndrome, one of the most severe complications of Covid-19. It notes that alcohol use affects judgment, decision-making and behaviour, which can negatively impact the ability to act to prevent infection and transmission of the virus."

So blame it on covid now. Gas. When Covid goes away they'll revert of course.

hmmm

podgeandrodge wrote: »

But it seems clear that the experts are saying (EXCEPT NPHET), and continuing to say, that outdoor gatherings, including crowds on the beach and elsewhere, are not really a contributory factor,.

I think we should be a small bit careful with language.

Covid seems to spread explosively through "super-spread" events. A small number of people are highly infectious for some reason, and in a poorly ventilated area they will infect a large number of people.

Outside I can't think of a single example of a "super-spread" event and it's hard to see how it would happen. Lots of people said this would happen during the US protests, and the stats show no significant impact.

That doesn't mean you can't catch it outside, and then bring it back home or into a workplace. But it probably means that if you are sitting in a beer garden with a Covid superspreader, you are unlikely to catch it - where if you were inside you probably would.

In general if we can encourage people to move every activity as much as possibly outside it sounds like we will be in a much better place. It's the people who keep looking for zero risk who are a problem (MHQ everyone, close beaches, parks, mountains). They need to be put back in their box and told that we cannot have zero-risk, but we can minimise risk and that will be enough.

Lumen

As far as I know

Outdoors (without crowding) = very safe.
Indoors (regardless of crowding) = very risky.

The issue is where outdoor activity includes some indoor. Like using someone's toilet when you're in their garden. Toilets are BAD due to fecal spread, there's research supporting this.

So beaches are fine because there are no toilets and no opportunity to go indoors, as long as people aren't on top of one another.

What I find inexplicable is that the government is hand wringing over beaches whilst planning to fully open hotels, B&Bs etc. I can see no basis for this, epidemiologically speaking.

Widdensushi

Lumen wrote: »

"Elderly" is over 65s. Only some of them have been vaccinated, and others are post vaccination but not yet protected.

And there's the whole of cohort 7 which has barely started.

And you will move the goalposts when those are vaccinated, living is a risk, the higher risk people are vaccinated, the hospitals are empty, the biggest fear was hospitals becoming overrun and people that could be saved dying in corridors, it happens here every year except this year thankfully. Unfortunately I am in the situation where elderly relatives are dying in care at the moment, I wish they got covid to speed it up. It's a disgrace that these great people are being kept alive, incontinent and their minds gone, I never want to end up like it and believe that we all should get the choice when we pass a certain age to sign off for euthanasia if we get to that stage.

Rebelbrowser

Just to add my tuppence. I'm very conservative about covid, wear masks at times when others think I'm being too cautious etc. But on the outside socialising issue, my view has changed full circle. I went for outdoor takeaway pints with two friends this week. 2m plus apart at all times on a windy day. Every other group was similar. Loads of pubs to choose from. Gardai, rightly, keeping an eye but tacitly approving. All bars closed by 9pm. This was safe - but illegal. That's wrong. The law now is not sensible. Good law needs to have the respect of the people to be effective. Absent laws people respect you will eventually get anarchy. Time for the Government to catch up with the people, with the science and with other countries.

Lumen

Widdensushi wrote: »

And you will move the goalposts when those are vaccinated, living is a risk, the higher risk people are vaccinated, the hospitals are empty, the biggest fear was hospitals becoming overrun and people that could be saved dying in corridors, it happens here every year except this year thankfully.

Don't tell me what I'll do.

As far I'm concerned when cohort 7 and the over 60s are done we can pretty much fully reopen, which I expect to be around the end of May.

Those members of those cohorts who want to wait for the second dose or at least the first dose to kick in properly might have to distance for a few weeks.

I'd still worry about over 60s working in hospitality, but hopefully their employers can support them. When I was eating out last summer there were elderly restaurant waiters using those crappy face shields.

Maybe just opening restaurants to the vaccinated for a few weeks would sort that out. Many restaurants with older staff tend to have older patrons, so there ought to be enough pent up demand from the vaccinated.

Jinglejangle69

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Don't want to waste the time of doctors etc but suspect I might have it

Headache for five days straight
Incredible fatigue ( could sleep all day )
Sore throat though not an especially bad one and seems to come and go
Cough but getting up plenty of phlegm

No loss of appetite or smell though

Why would you be wasting time?

They are paid to be on call. All they have to do is refer you for a test over the phone.

Takes 2 seconds.

Turtwig

Widdensushi wrote: »

Unfortunately I am in the situation where elderly relatives are dying in care at the moment, I wish they got covid to speed it up.

I sympathise with your situation greatly. Did you ever watch Lost? You know that episode where they shoot someone to put them out of their misery and it backfires horribly. Yeah, that's COVID. It's a fcking horrible disease that you really don't want anyone close to you suffering from. It's a miserable way to die.

iamwhoiam

Rebelbrowser wrote: »

Just to add my tuppence. I'm very conservative about covid, wear masks at times when others think I'm being too cautious etc. But on the outside socialising issue, my view has changed full circle. I went for outdoor takeaway pints with two friends this week. 2m plus apart at all times on a windy day. Every other group was similar. Loads of pubs to choose from. Gardai, rightly, keeping an eye but tacitly approving. All bars closed by 9pm. This was safe - but illegal. That's wrong. The law now is not sensible. Good law needs to have the respect of the people to be effective. Absent laws people respect you will eventually get anarchy. Time for the Government to catch up with the people, with the science and with other countries.

I am conservative too and have been all along . I do not understand why the Government are not encouraging outdoor meeting now . For weeks now people are realising that outdoors is safe and meeting in gardens , in groups , gathering in parks
And yet the numbers are stable and hospitals coping . People should be encouraged to meet outdoors be in it in thr garden or park
I am not young and nor are my friends , we are safer here in my garden well distanced and on comfortable chairs
We are also well capable of safely using the toilet if the need arises . We know about anti bac spray and hand washing
This should be encouraged and allowed to allow people live again .
Outdoor eating and beer gardens need to be opened or people will simply rebel and loose the run of themselves
People have learned so much and the vast majority are well able to stay safe and not be treated like bold children who cannot be trusted

humberklog

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Don't want to waste the time of doctors etc but suspect I might have it

Headache for five days straight
Incredible fatigue ( could sleep all day )
Sore throat though not an especially bad one and seems to come and go
Cough but getting up plenty of phlegm

No loss of appetite or smell though

I'm not being funny at all but that sounds like my hay fever, I get it this time of year from tree pollen. Try an antihistamine and see how you go.

Chris_5339762

Does anyone know the % positivity rate from the Cork pop up testing center over the last few weeks? Was it ever released?

Since the levels in Cork are so low I'm very interested in seeing what got picked up here.

funnydoggy

Rebelbrowser wrote: »

Just to add my tuppence. I'm very conservative about covid, wear masks at times when others think I'm being too cautious etc. But on the outside socialising issue, my view has changed full circle. I went for outdoor takeaway pints with two friends this week. 2m plus apart at all times on a windy day. Every other group was similar. Loads of pubs to choose from. Gardai, rightly, keeping an eye but tacitly approving. All bars closed by 9pm. This was safe - but illegal. That's wrong. The law now is not sensible. Good law needs to have the respect of the people to be effective. Absent laws people respect you will eventually get anarchy. Time for the Government to catch up with the people, with the science and with other countries.

My thoughts exactly.

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

Don't tell me what I'll do.

As far I'm concerned when cohort 7 and the over 60s are done we can pretty much fully reopen, which I expect to be around the end of May.

Those members of those cohorts who want to wait for the second dose or at least the first dose to kick in properly might have to distance for a few weeks.

I'd still worry about over 60s working in hospitality, but hopefully their employers can support them. When I was eating out last summer there were elderly restaurant waiters using those crappy face shields.

Maybe just opening restaurants to the vaccinated for a few weeks would sort that out. Many restaurants with older staff tend to have older patrons, so there ought to be enough pent up demand from the vaccinated.

I think you are in for a shock come the end of May.
MM is already talking about outdoors as the theme of our summer.

Not a chance we’ll be fully open this summer. I’d be surprised if we fully opened this year.

KrustyUCC

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Govt. hates alcohol remember. Citizens cannot be trusted. Throw out that mandatory alchohol pricing will "save 200 lives per year" (cos nobody will be able to prove them wrong), and here we go in the middle of a pandemic with many having less disposable income:

"...internal government document details how MUP would increase the price of low-cost alcohol such as a 70cl bottle of Tesco's own-brand vodka from around €12.99 to €20.71 (up €7.72); a similar-sized bottle of gin from €14.25 to €20.71 (up €6.46); a €3.99 bottle of wine to €6.50 (€2.51)..."

The draft memo states: "In the context of the pandemic, the draft memo references WHO advice that heavy alcohol use weakens the immune system and reduces the body's ability to fight off infectious disease as well as increasing the risk of acute respiratory distress syndrome, one of the most severe complications of Covid-19. It notes that alcohol use affects judgment, decision-making and behaviour, which can negatively impact the ability to act to prevent infection and transmission of the virus."

So blame it on covid now. Gas. When Covid goes away they'll revert of course.

Shameless from the government using COVID to bring in a measure that FG intended to get people back to the pubs

Going to be great fun when people drive over the border instead

Jinglejangle69

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think you are in for a shock come the end of May.
MM is already talking about outdoors as the theme of our summer.

Not a chance we’ll be fully open this summer. I’d be surprised if we fully opened this year.

Yep Tony has ruled out indoor dining for May and June.

That will be extended.

KrustyUCC

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Yep Tony has ruled out indoor dining for May and June.

That will be extended.

Bye bye hospitality sector so

Indoor dining in the North is reopening on May 24th

The government know that they need indoor dining for July at the latest as they want people to staycation

No point in booking hotels if you can't even eat in the internal restaurants

The longer the government push out indoor dining the more attractive foreign holidays becomes as well

manofwisdom

I see one of the main headlines on RTE is about the increase in hospitals, typical reporting from them when they well know there is little or no discharges in hospitals at weekends.

Michael Martin saying they are following science, outdoors much safer than indoors why wasn't the outdoor activities allowed at least a month earlier then?

KrustyUCC

LarryBird wrote: »

It's a 2000 euro fine for travelling abroad for holidays. Can't see many people paying that

The guards won't be at every flight for the summer

That fines a risk more people will be willing to take if you can't even get a good overprices staycation here

gozunda

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Exactly.
Most of the conversation this morning appears to be on the outdoor gathering debate. Until recently, I was a tad concerned, not worried, but I'd have joined a small group outside no problem, once there weren't another few hundred around me.But it seems clear that the experts are saying (EXCEPT NPHET), and continuing to say, that outdoor gatherings, including crowds on the beach and elsewhere, are not really a contributory factor.
If this is the case, having a meal and a pint outdoor and assisting businesses in their very survival should be permitted, and NOW. Others have mentioned NPHET job being to advise - I haven't seen any decent advice from them in relation to outdoor crowds and outdoor dining/drinks - just the usual 'need to be cautious' etc.
"Professor Mark Woolhouse, professor of infectious disease epidemiology at the University of Edinburgh and an adviser to the government's Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies- beaches are not a hotbed for coronavirus transmission. “There were no outbreaks linked to crowded beaches. There has never been a COVID-19 outbreak linked to a beach ever anywhere in the world to the best of my knowledge.” He added: “We do have to understand where the risks are or aren’t.”"
OR: “We have known for some time that only about 10% of transmission events are linked to outdoor activities,” said Dr Müge Çevik, a lecturer in infectious diseases and medical virology at the University of St Andrews.
“Even those events generally involve either prolonged close contact or a mixture of indoor and outdoor time. We had a lot of existing knowledge even when the pandemic began about respiratory viruses and how they transmit in general, and everything directs us to the conditions in people’s homes and workplaces.”
“To me, this seems very misguided,” Julia Marcus, an infectious disease epidemiologist and professor at Harvard Medical School, told Honolulu Civil Beat. “Based on what we know about superspreader events globally, they’re not happening at the beach. It’s not zero risk, but that’s not where most or even much transmission – if any – is happening"."

Well no. Not "exactly" at all.

Yer man "Mark Woodhouse" as you pointed out was on on the UKs equivalent of Nphet and yet the UK placed restrictions on all outdoor activities putting in place stay at home restrictions until recently.

As has practically every other country worldwide.

His opinions seem to be an outlier at best. But he seems to be a big hit with those generally who would prefer not to acknowledge the roll of restrictions in keeping the rate of infections down.

And that whilst experts are stating that it's not outdoor activities per se - but those activities around outdoor socialising and activities especially those which involve transport, socialising in significant numbers and close contact. Cases numbers arising from such activities tend to be recorded as part of community spread.

To point India is in the grip of a new wave of infections - where deaths have risen by 1,185 over the past 24 hours - the highest single-day rise in seven months.

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/india-reports-another-record-daily-rise-covid-19-infections-2021-04-16/

Experts there have identified that the spread of more contagious variant of the disease, particularly given a relaxation of social distancing restrictions and recent widespread participation in outdoor religious festivals and political rallies.

We have an absolute right to be cautious until people are fully vaccinated.

Jinglejangle69

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Yep Tony has ruled out indoor dining for May and June.

That will be extended.

It’s really hard to understand their thought process.

How can it already be a no to indoor hospitality for May and June when numbers have already dropped so much and many more will be vaccinated...

To make things worse, he more or less says that he doesn’t know when it will ever be considered safe as they can’t be sure of the effectiveness of the vaccines....

Also more talk of wanting to keep things open... which basically means stay in lockdown so we don’t need to lockdown again.

We guys running the show, it really is a nightmare. Thank god I have a staycation booked up North.

funnydoggy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We guys running the show, it really is a nightmare. Thank god I have a staycation booked up North.

Can I come? Lol

Stheno

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It’s really hard to understand their thought process.

How can it already be a no to indoor hospitality for May and June when numbers have already dropped so much and many more will be vaccinated...

To make things worse, he more or less says that he doesn’t know when it will ever be considered safe as they can’t be sure of the effectiveness of the vaccines....
h.

Who was it who said this?

Jim_Hodge

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s really hard to understand their thought process.

To make things worse, he more or less says that he doesn’t know when it will ever be considered safe as they can’t be sure of the effectiveness of the vaccines....

If you're referring to MM on the Week in Politics thus morning, I didn't hear him say anything like that.

Corholio

LarryBird wrote: »

It's a 2000 euro fine for travelling abroad for holidays. Can't see many people paying that

The North will be headed to in considerable numbers to go out abroad too.

hmmm

gozunda wrote: »

And that whilst experts are stating that it's not outdoor activities per se - but those activities around outdoor socialising and activities especially those which involve transport, socialising in significant numbers and close contact. Cases numbers arising from such activities tend to be recorded as part of community spread.

NPHET or whomever saying they can't allow x because even though it is low risk it can lead to y, but y is lumped in with everything else isn't good enough. This was fine a year ago, but we are a year into this now and basing what are very severe restrictions on opinions isn't good enough. Where are the studies in Ireland showing where this community transmission is occurring? We seem to have enough medics who are willing to spend time talking to the media, could some of them be redirected towards producing this research and actually contributing something useful?

Munsterbhoy

I wonder will Paul Treyvaud still open his restaurant on July 1st as he said he would if restrictions still apply.

Stheno

hmmm wrote: »

NPHET or whomever saying they can't allow x because even though it is low risk it can lead to y, but y is lumped in with everything else isn't good enough. This was fine a year ago, but we are a year into this now and basing what are very severe restrictions on opinions isn't good enough. Where are the studies in Ireland showing where this community transmission is occurring? We seem to have enough medics who are willing to spend time talking to the media, could some of them be redirected towards producing this research and actually contributing something useful?

There has never been particularly good research by public health into community transmission

Fair enough when numbers were crazy high but surely they can do more now?

Its the vagueness of it all that astounds me.

gozunda

hmmm wrote: »

NPHET or whomever saying they can't allow x because even though it is low risk it can lead to y, but y is lumped in with everything else isn't good enough. This was fine a year ago, but we are a year into this now and basing what are very severe restrictions on opinions isn't good enough. Where are the studies in Ireland showing where this community transmission is occurring? We seem to have enough medics who are willing to spend time talking to the media, could some of them be redirected towards producing this research and actually contributing something useful?

And yet those "very severe" restrictions are nothing like they were when first brought in to help reduce high rates of infection. And atm we're in maintenance mode whilst we get our vaccination programme fully rolled out.

What we do know that high levels of socialising and close contact are risk factors. That is accepted worldwide. And until we get people vaccinated then that's not going anywhere. That said restrictions are being rolled back as vaccination rates rise - and not at you but all that still does not seem to be enough for some.

DebDynamite

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Shameless from the government using COVID to bring in a measure that FG intended to get people back to the pubs

Going to be great fun when people drive over the border instead

Really sneaky, trying to tie it in with Covid, but at the same time, they’re not doing much to get people back into pubs either, except the recent extension of opening hours, I guess. That will just have to be the start of it though to get our nightlife going again.

Nearly 20 years ago when I started working, Friday in Dublin after work was a big thing. There were happy hours and that brought young workers out into the pubs and bars to drink and socialize, which may or may not have led on to going to a nightclub.

All those happy hour type promotions have stopped now so as not to encourage binge drinking and after work drinks amongst young people is not such a big thing. The younger people I know seem to only do cans after work or it’s saved for a special occasion if the weather is nice, etc.