Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

TomTomTim

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Donnelly is another of the new generation of weak politicians, more led by twitter and opinion polls than anything else - Vardakar, McEntee, Harris would be the same.

This to me simply shows that these types aren't as wise or savvy as they think. Anyone with any cop on knows fine well that most social media is filled with people with very ideologically narrow views, views that often don't do too well when it comes to elections.

UI_Paddy

gozunda wrote: »

Great idea. No idea why actual medical professionals didnt think of that before.

Plus its really going to sort out a lot of road death statistics and help bring them right down...

Someone got hit by a bus and killed = Road fatality?

Nah don't be daft - guy had a dicky heart and etc

It's not unheard of. Dr Gerard Waters has been questioning whether the deaths of patients with COVID that have occurred have been a result of COVID itself. I spoke to him just as this pandemic hit Ireland, so can confirm he's held these views all along. Interesting he's been pushing for post mortems, as they would be the true test of his (and some others) stance.

charlie14

normanoffside wrote: »

What the conspiracy theorists here have been saying for almost a year is finally reported in a National newspaper.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mayo-coroner-questions-nphets-figures-for-covid-deaths-40326117.html

We are very poor in Ireland on up to date data. From this Eurostat link, the worst in Europe, but if that coroner is correct then we have been the most successful country in Europe at protecting lives during this pandemic.
During a pandemic I believe that excess deaths are the real measure of its effect.

Eurostat have been keeping track of these using data from all EU countries, bar Ireland where no official data is yet available.
I don`t see where under the cover page link "Excess mortality in the European Union between January 2020 and January 2021" the high monthly excess death rates can be attributed to anything other than Covid-19.
Especially when they correspond with the same periods at the heights of the various waves of this pandemic.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Excess_mortality_-_statistics

Windmill100000

Silentcorner wrote: »

Ha ha haaaa.....

You can't even point out a single thing I said that is incorrect....

Maybe it is you who can't accept people who think differently to you!!!

It is funny. Most people aren't in agreement with you. Or if they are, they aren't doing anything to bring about the change you want right now. At least I got you laughing

ypres5

normanoffside wrote: »

Most Coroners are doctors.
One is quoted in the article if you bother to read it.



Mr O'Connor is primarily a solicitor but is also public information's officer of the Coroner's society of Ireland, hence why he is being interviewed and he is giving the views of the Coroners throughout the country.

Looks like the facts and logic posters can't even be bothered to read an article before sounding off about it, how ironic

charlie14

ypres5 wrote: »

Looks like the facts and logic posters can't even be bothered to read an article before sounding off about it, how ironic

I did, and from the Eurostat link I posted then if this coroner is correct in his assumptions, in Ireland, if not indeed the world, it appears we have been the most successful in managing this pandemic where loss of life is concerned does it not ?

Zebra3

charlie14 wrote: »

We are very poor in Ireland on up to date data. From this Eurostat link, the worst in Europe, but if that coroner is correct then we have been the most successful country in Europe at protecting lives during this pandemic.
During a pandemic I believe that excess deaths are the real measure of its effect.

Eurostat have been keeping track of these using data from all EU countries, bar Ireland where no official data is yet available.
I don`t see where under the cover page link "Excess mortality in the European Union between January 2020 and January 2021" the high monthly excess death rates can be attributed to anything other than Covid-19.
Especially when they correspond with the same periods at the heights of the various waves of this pandemic.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Excess_mortality_-_statistics

Imagine living in a democracy where journalists would hold the Minister of Health to account for this.

_Kaiser_

TomTomTim wrote: »

This to me simply shows that these types aren't as wise or savvy as they think. Anyone with any cop on knows fine well that most social media is filled with people with very ideologically narrow views, views that often don't do too well when it comes to elections.

I'd like to think this was still true, but increasingly this social media narrative is seeping into the "real world" as policy decisions and strategies.

Whether you agree with the measures or not, the Covid responses have been hugely driven by the media and press. What would previously have been written off as crazy rants or outlandish, can go viral in hours and be picked up by mainstream outlets and repeated, simultaneously adding legitimacy to the claim, or importing issues or positions from abroad that have no place in the local society or culture.

The likes of Leo seem to live on Twitter and use it as a barometer for not only how they are perceived, but the responses to the "kite flying" they engage in. It's even more worrying when you remember that some of these current senior ministers and cabinet members have had no real-world experience at all before they entered politics.

It'll get worse as the current crop of teens and 20-somethings get into positions in the media and politics. There was a recent poll that suggested only 15% of teens can determine fact from opinion which is a frightening prospect, but also why companies and indeed Governments are putting increasing resources into social media platforms.

It's these platforms that are the biggest danger IMO. You can see it even here on this thread (which would have an older demographic generally). So many of the posts are polarised with aggressive "you're with us or against us" tones, everyone is part of a "side" (apparently you can no longer agree on one issue but completely disagree on another), easy dismissal or selective (mis)quoting of anyone they don't agree with in replies - illustrated perfectly with the "one liner attempt to be funny" response to a considered post - and selective use of sources to back up their arguments.

As I say, I can unfortunately only see this problem getting worse unless regulation is brought in over the Facebooks and Twitters of the world.

gozunda

lawred2 wrote: »

you're trying way too hard now - maybe take some time off

Eh? You moding now?

But No - rest assured no effort at all there.

Though sorry if that upset you ...

That said - It's really not to hard to spot those grasping at straws - quoting a piece of headline journalism and all whilst deriding journalists at the same time :pac:

charlie14

Zebra3 wrote: »

Imagine living in a democracy where journalists would hold the Minister of Health to account for this.

For what, the views of a coroner where there are no official figures to back up his views, while official statistics from the rest of Europe show large increases in the percentage of deaths corresponding with the various waves of this pandemic ?

gozunda

UI_Paddy wrote: »

It's not unheard of. Dr Gerard Waters has been questioning whether the deaths of patients with COVID that have occurred have been a result of COVID itself. I spoke to him just as this pandemic hit Ireland, so can confirm he's held these views all along. Interesting he's been pushing for post mortems, as they would be the true test of his (and some others) stance.

You mean DR. Gerard Waters who admitted not referring any patients for Covid tests and who was suspended from practicing medicine

I'll pass thanks ...

Don't Chute!

Don’t know if this was posted already?
https://youtu.be/0gx8T9qAVYY

How long are the absolute fools going to let this go on before they do something? This country is officially closed for business.

Zebra3

charlie14 wrote: »

For what, the views of a coroner where there are no official figures to back up his views, while official statistics from the rest of Europe show large increases in the percentage of deaths corresponding with the various waves of this pandemic ?

For not supplying figures on excessive mortality rates.

ypres5

charlie14 wrote: »

I did, and from the Eurostat link I posted then if this coroner is correct in his assumptions, in Ireland, if not indeed the world, it appears we have been the most successful in managing this pandemic where loss of life is concerned does it not ?

No I'm agreeing with you, I'm just saying that someone said the coroner's not a doctor when he did. Thanks for putting that link up it made for good reading

adamandeve

Sorry if I'm late to this thread and its already been discussed,its essential travel. What's the story if you want to visit a loved ones grave but its outside your 20 km and you need to take the train intercity are you going to be checked and questioned at the moment is it that strict?

_Kaiser_

adamandeve wrote: »

Sorry if I'm late to this thread and its already been discussed,its essential travel. What's the story if you want to visit a loved ones grave but its outside your 20 km and you need to take the train intercity are you going to be checked and questioned at the moment is it that strict?

Travel to a grave is one of the "approved" reasons, regardless of distance

lawred2

gozunda wrote: »

Eh? You moding now?

But No - rest assured no effort at all there.

Though sorry if that upset you ...

That said - It's really not to hard to spot those grasping at straws - quoting a piece of headline journalism and all whilst deriding journalists at the same time :pac:

That wasn't modding. Just some advice.

gozunda

lawred2 wrote: »

That wasn't modding. Just some advice.

"Advice"? Afaik this is a discussion forum. Not Dr. Lawreds agony column...

charlie14

Zebra3 wrote: »

For not supplying figures on excessive mortality rates.

For the journalist not doing a bit of basic research and asking the coroner why he believed we will not have excess deaths like the rest of Europe during the heights of those waves as shown by the Eurostat link.

Pdoghue

That people are dying with Covid but their deaths are not directly caused by Covid has been reported widely since it started. It's certainly a fudge of sorts, for whatever reasons.

Imagine if the authorities reported Covid deaths of anyone who was vaccinated but died within 28 days of being vaccinated. It would certainly put a new spin on things!

charlie14

Pdoghue wrote: »

That people are dying with Covid but their deaths are not directly caused by Covid has been reported widely since it started. It's certainly a fudge of sorts, for whatever reasons.

Imagine if the authorities reported Covid deaths of anyone who was vaccinated but died within 28 days of being vaccinated. It would certainly put a new spin on things!

It`s a fudge that some countries and those who wish to downplay the severity of this virus have been attempting since the start.
Now with more information on excess deaths it is becoming more difficult for them to do so.

It`s inevitable that actually will happen. Vaccines have a high protection percentage after the first dose and higher again after the second, but they are not guaranteed 100%.
I have no doubt there will be journalists spinning that for all they are worth while totally ignoring the statistics of the lowering of Covid deaths due to vaccination.
Scare stories now sell much better than factual ones.

PintOfView

Just to keep things in perspective, here are the weekly deaths in the US from all causes for the last 4 years.
Orange line is the threshold for excess deaths
(from here -> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm)
If we haven't had excess deaths for 2020, then why?

adamandeve

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Travel to a grave is one of the "approved" reasons, regardless of distance

Thanks for that I'm just wondering how you would prove this if asked

Jim_Hodge

adamandeve wrote: »

Thanks for that I'm just wondering how you would prove this if asked

Have the name of a graveyard handy, as I've asked which one I was going to.

Stheno

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

Have the name of a graveyard handy, as I've asked which one I was going to.

Really?

facehugger99

adamandeve wrote: »

Thanks for that I'm just wondering how you would prove this if asked

Why would you need to prove anything.

Doesn’t even have to be the grave of anyone you know.

I’ve gone on loads of trips during the lockdown, just look up a graveyard on google maps close to where you want to go.

Zebra3

charlie14 wrote: »

For the journalist not doing a bit of basic research and asking the coroner why he believed we will not have excess deaths like the rest of Europe during the heights of those waves as shown by the Eurostat link.

What has that got to do with stats not being provided to the EU on (potentially) excessive mortality rates?

arccosh

PintOfView wrote: »

Just to keep things in perspective, here are the weekly deaths in the US from all causes for the last 4 years.
Orange line is the threshold for excess deaths
(from here -> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm)
If we haven't had excess deaths for 2020, then why?

I wonder what was happening from quarter 2 onwards in 2020

normanoffside

We're officially losing our Euro 2020 matches tomorrow :mad:

https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1383863542864961542

arccosh

normanoffside wrote: »

We're officially losing our Euro 2020 matches tomorrow :mad:

https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1383863542864961542

Delighted, too much fun to be had there, hopefully we'll still be in lockdown so no one can watch it in the pub either

Sharpyshoot

arccosh wrote: »

Delighted, too much fun to be had there, hopefully we'll still be in lockdown so no one can watch it in the pub either

With the Indian variant probably.

niallo27

If excess deaths are low they will hail the lockdowns as bring an overwhelming success, if they are high they will blame Christmas and people not able to control themselves. There will be no accountability.

arccosh

niallo27 wrote: »

If excess deaths are low they will hail the lockdowns as bring an overwhelming success, if they are high they will blame Christmas and people not able to control themselves. There will be no accountability.

They're two legitimate arguments tbf

Aph2016

niallo27 wrote: »

If excess deaths are low they will hail the lockdowns as bring an overwhelming success, if they are high they will blame Christmas and people not able to control themselves. There will be no accountability.

Accountability doesn't exist in this country. Watching reeling in the years for 2011, things are far more bleak and depressing now than they were back then, and there was no accountability back then either.

UI_Paddy

arccosh wrote: »

They're two legitimate arguments tbf

The rise in cases we saw early this year was caused by the UK B117 variant. I know very few people who weren't responsible at Christmas.

Breaston Plants

Thinking of heading to Belfast June Bank holiday weekend, was wondering would inter county travel be eaaed by then? And what would the chances of being stopped by the Gardai?

Del Griffith

gozunda wrote: »

Great idea. No idea why actual medical professionals didnt think of that before.

Plus its really going to sort out a lot of road death statistics and help bring them right down...

Someone got hit by a bus and killed = Road fatality?

Nah don't be daft - guy had a dicky heart and etc

I honestly thought you'd switched sides when I read that. That's precisely what's happening with deaths counted as covid. You can literally die of anything and if you test positive, you're in the numbers.

Is that what you meant, its grand when it's covid but obviously absurd if it were road fatalities?

arccosh

UI_Paddy wrote: »

The rise in cases we saw early this year was caused by the UK B117 variant. I know very few people who weren't responsible at Christmas.

I knew it was the Brits, sneaking in with Huawei

ceadaoin.

PintOfView wrote: »

Just to keep things in perspective, here are the weekly deaths in the US from all causes for the last 4 years.
Orange line is the threshold for excess deaths
(from here -> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm)
If we haven't had excess deaths for 2020, then why?

Interesting how the deaths for this year so far are well below the average according to that chart

arccosh

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Interesting how the deaths for this year so far are well below the average according to that chart

Hold your horses there captain tinfoil


There is a delay in reporting the figures

This delay can range from 1 week to 8 weeks or more, depending on the jurisdiction and cause of death.

First bar under the average is from week ending 6th March ... (6 weeks ago)

frank8211

Breaston Plants wrote: »

Thinking of heading to Belfast June Bank holiday weekend, was wondering would inter county travel be eaaed by then? And what would the chances of being stopped by the Gardai?

Id say yuo would be fine. If its not changed they will have given up enforcing bar occasional magnet such as wicklow and wexford

ypres5

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-oregon-6f7f919d27644d02c330da5a8648af95

Looks like Oregon are planning on making mask wearing and social distancing mandatory indefinitely. A sneak peak into Ireland's future ?

Dr. Bre

Have we flattened the curve yet

arccosh

ypres5 wrote: »

A sneak peak into Ireland's future ?

nah

ypres5

normanoffside wrote: »

We're officially losing our Euro 2020 matches tomorrow :mad:

https://twitter.com/IrishTimesSport/status/1383863542864961542

Our resident Joe Duffy listeners will be overjoyed at the prospect of ridding the country of any semblance of fun for the foreseeable future. We'll all be united in our misery of living under restrictions, the Ireland de Valeras dreamed of shall live again

11521323

Breaston Plants wrote: »

Thinking of heading to Belfast June Bank holiday weekend, was wondering would inter county travel be eaaed by then? And what would the chances of being stopped by the Gardai?

I've been up and back to belfast to play golf for the last 2 weeks, not one sign of a checkpoint.

corkonion

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Have we flattened the curve yet

We have, but now we've realised that some deadly mutation could evolve sometime somewhere in the future. Hold firm.

ypres5

arccosh wrote: »

nah

Brilliant rebuttal. So when do you think masks and social distancing will be done away with and why do you think so? Because all indications from gov are they'll be here a while yet

PintOfView

ypres5 wrote: »

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-oregon-6f7f919d27644d02c330da5a8648af95

Looks like Oregon are planning on making mask wearing and social distancing mandatory indefinitely. A sneak peak into Ireland's future ?

Indefinitely means forever.
However that's not what that article says.
It's clearly meant to just last until the threat from Covid has passed.
See ...

The proposal would keep the rules in place until they are “no longer necessary to address the effects of the pandemic in the workplace.”

Michael Wood, administrator of the state’s department of Occupational Safety and Health,
said the move is necessary to address a technicality in state law that requires
a “permanent” rule to keep current restrictions from expiring.

“We are not out of the woods yet,” he said.

PintOfView

PintOfView wrote: »

Indefinitely means forever.
However that's not what that article says.
It's clearly meant to just last until the threat from Covid has passed.
See ...

Reality rarely impinges when the thread gets into full rant mode