Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

AlekSmart

AlekSmart wrote: »

In health terms,The sad fact that many of this group will have died from non-covid causes due to the Emergency shutting down all else appears to count for naught.

All of it will count a great deal when government and media decide it should count. All the economic costs and health costs, the increased otherwise young people with diseases that would have been treatable, mental health, deaths of despair, addictions, domestic abuse and the trauma it visits families... it will all count when it’s convenient or unavoidable.

And they’ll say “we could not have known!”

And the same old seals will clap.

Doctor Jimbob

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

But that’s what happen’s Jim.

Some people have lost all glimmer of a future.

Strip a man of everything he values and force him to rely on others and all bets are off.

At the end of the day, the government didn’t keep up their initial promises last Summer and many Irish men & women have been living in the most suppressed democracy across the globe for the past 12 months.

Have you heard any discussion from a behavioural psychologist on the effects on long term suppression on children and adults?

I think there's probably truth in that. I would imagine there are plenty of otherwise reasonable people being pushed towards increasingly unreasonable positions out of frustration and desperation. It's understandable, but it doesn't make them right.

I think our government are weak. I think they're being cowardly and hiding behind NPHET instead of taking the lead. I think our approach is conservative and cautious to a fault. But implying walk in test centres will be used to increase restrictions is unrealistic. Putting my own conspiracy hat on for for second, I have my suspicions part of the reason behind introducing them is to drive down positivity rates, which will be used as justification for opening up. It's easy to forget when talking to other frustrated people, but easing restrictions too much without justification would piss off a significant amount of people who are pro restrictions.

As for the idea that we're never getting our freedom back? Nah, I'm not buying it.

TonyMaloney

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I think there's probably truth in that. I would imagine there are plenty of otherwise reasonable people being pushed towards increasingly unreasonable positions out of frustration and desperation. It's understandable, but it doesn't make them right.

I think our government are weak. I think they're being cowardly and hiding behind NPHET instead of taking the lead. I think our approach is conservative and cautious to a fault. But implying walk in test centres will be used to increase restrictions is unrealistic. Putting my own conspiracy hat on for for second, I have my suspicions part of the reason behind introducing them is to drive down positivity rates, which will be used as justification for opening up. It's easy to forget when talking to other frustrated people, but easing restrictions too much without justification would piss off a significant amount of people who are pro restrictions.

As for the idea that we're never getting our freedom back? Nah, I'm not buying it.

That's exactly what Eamon Ryan wants you to think

Ronaldinho

bb1234567 wrote: »

millions of Americans and Brits in their 20's and 30's are being vaccinated

What planet are you on?

AlekSmart

PintOfView wrote: »

So what's your solution to the whole thing (that won't result in putting my life at risk, or that of anyone I know)?

I don't have a Solution.

I've worked throughout the entire thing,I've taken what precautions I found to be commonsense,particularly my Late Mothers stringent advice of 50 years ago,to Wash my hands and not cough in peoples faces.

I don't actually have any fear of interacting with other people,masked or not,and continue to have a high degree of confidence in my own immune system to deal with whatever presents.

I will peruse and consider whatever "Advice" is being given by NPHET on any given day,and more particularly it's rationale when it is given,however I will decide myself as to whether these advisories make sense.

As for looking out for others,I'll respect their space and wishes and keep my distance if that makes them comfortable,but I'll not leg it to the other side of the road to avoid momentary contact in free outdoor airflow !

That's as much a contribution to a solution as I can muster so far.

bb1234567

Ronaldinho wrote: »

What planet are you on?

What are you talking about? Many US states have announced eligibility for anyone over 18 now that initial surge in demand from older/at risk demographics has been almost entirely covered

PintOfView

AlekSmart wrote: »

I don't have a Solution.

I've worked throughout the entire thing,I've taken what precautions I found to be commonsense,particularly my Late Mothers stringent advice of 50 years ago,to Wash my hands and not cough in peoples faces.

I don't actually have any fear of interacting with other people,masked or not,and continue to have a high degree of confidence in my own immune system to deal with whatever presents.

I will peruse and consider whatever "Advice" is being given by NPHET on any given day,and more particularly it's rationale when it is given,however I will decide myself as to whether these advisories make sense.

As for looking out for others,I'll respect their space and wishes and keep my distance if that makes them comfortable,but I'll not leg it to the other side of the road to avoid momentary contact in free outdoor airflow !

That's as much a contribution to a solution as I can muster so far.

I don't have a big argument with what you're saying there.

However the bottom line is that it would be a very different country if we had simply ignored it and not brought in restrictions.
It's pretty obvious that the restrictions saved a lot of people, and prevented the health service from total collapse.

The fact that you are able to get away with a somewhat casual attitude is thanks to the majority who have stuck with it from the start, and prevented the thing from spreading like wildfire.
And yes, you might have been fine, due to your age group, but a lot of people, and probably some in your age group, wouldn't have made it due to hospitals not having the capacity to even put people on oxygen (look at Brazil today).

When we have collectively prevented the worst from happening it's easy to then come along and say see, I told you so, it wasn't serious after all!!

AlekSmart

PintOfView wrote: »

Well the comparison is this ...
You say "We no longer have a public health emergency as the expected collapse due to covid never occurred"

If we hadn't locked down then you would have a very good point.
However we did lock down, and brought in restrictions to stifle the virus.
Has it occurred to you to wonder why we didn't have a collapse?

Occasionally yes,and I believe it's largely down to an initial overreaction,which even when recognised,was maintained in order to build upon the surprising compliance from the general public.

The restrictions,as you describe them,may well have stifled the Covid virus,but at a cost of stifling other medical and psychological treatments and broader societal norms as well....acceptable collateral damage perhaps ?

Once I saw the "Emergency" additional temporary facilities,the Naval Service vessel along Dublin's Quayside, and the Private Sector Hospitals NOT being required,it guided my response.

For MOST people in THIS Country Covid is now known to present a negligible risk of sickness,let alone death,so one must question the necessity to prolong this "Emergency" in the current manner.

Ronaldinho

bb1234567 wrote: »

What are you talking about? Many US states have announced eligibility for anyone over 18 now that initial surge in demand from older/at risk demographics has been almost entirely covered

And how many millions of 20 and 30 year olds have been vaccinated there?
You said UK also.

Brazil elected a Covid-denier that bears the brunt of the responsibility for the shambles they have themselves in.

It's a tough sell to expect US taxpayers who paid a sh1tton of cash to Pfizer and Moderna for vaccine development and suffered through the last year to now find themselves subordinate to a foreign country.

thebaz

NPHET now ativly advertising and encouraging healthy people to get tested :-

https://www.independent.ie/news/everyone-over-16-livingwithin-5km-of-a-walk-in-covid-19-test-centre-urgedto-get-tested-40240802.html

No doubt cases will rise , and with ther decision due now on monday (conveniently postponed) on whether the longest lockdown in the world should be continued.

We all know the decision has already been made - and what that advice will be - Lockdown at level 5 until at least mid summer.

Wish they would show the same enthusiasm for rolling out ther vaccine program , something proven to actualy control virus .
No doubt NPHET has full control of Ireland.

Penfailed

bb1234567 wrote: »

it's really scandalous that millions of Americans and Brits in their 20's and 30's are being vaccinated for no reason

Eh? I'm not sure about America but they're only down to those in their 50s in the UK. Anyone younger than that have valid reasons to be vaccinated such as asthma.

FintanMcluskey

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I think there's probably truth in that. I would imagine there are plenty of otherwise reasonable people being pushed towards increasingly unreasonable positions out of frustration and desperation. It's understandable, but it doesn't make them right.

I think our government are weak. I think they're being cowardly and hiding behind NPHET instead of taking the lead. I think our approach is conservative and cautious to a fault. But implying walk in test centres will be used to increase restrictions is unrealistic. Putting my own conspiracy hat on for for second, I have my suspicions part of the reason behind introducing them is to drive down positivity rates, which will be used as justification for opening up. It's easy to forget when talking to other frustrated people, but easing restrictions too much without justification would piss off a significant amount of people who are pro restrictions.

As for the idea that we're never getting our freedom back? Nah, I'm not buying it.

I don’t believe for one second the test centres are conspiracy to justify lockdown.
They doesn’t mean they won’t cause lockdown though.

They are another product of an abysmally slow reaction that started in March 2020. It’s only now an adequate testing protocol is in place.

My concern is the data these centres will generate will yet again lead to more conservativeness. I honestly believe they will be the cause of schools closing again. I struggle to believe the data will be accessed pragmatically and the positivity rate will be factored into any decisions made.

As regards your last point about easing restrictions would piss off a significant amount of pro restriction people.

Removing the travel restrictions and reopening gyms, pools and barbers etc surely can be justified with the current vaccination progress?

Do you honestly think we will justify reopening to those people, with HIGHER case numbers?

Multipass

Penfailed wrote: »

Eh? I'm not sure about America but they're only down to those in their 50s in the UK. Anyone younger than that have valid reasons to be vaccinated such as asthma.

Untrue, my niece just got an appointment, she’s 30, no underlying conditions.

AlekSmart

PintOfView wrote: »

I don't have a big argument with what you're saying there.

However the bottom line is that it would be a very different country if we had simply ignored it and not brought in restrictions.
It's pretty obvious that the restrictions saved a lot of people, and prevented the health service from total collapse.

The fact that you are able to get away with a somewhat casual attitude is thanks to the majority who have stuck with it from the start, and prevented the thing from spreading like wildfire.
And yes, you might have been fine, due to your age group, but a lot of people, and probably some in your age group, wouldn't have made it due to hospitals not having the capacity to even put people on oxygen (look at Brazil today).

When we have collectively prevented the worst from happening it's easy to then come along and say see, I told you so, it wasn't serious after all!!

Arguement is fine in my book.

I do not suggest we ignore it,never have.

We are however going to HAVE to live with it.

The Health Services position remains as perilous today as it was on Day 1 of Covid.

Our compliance with the emergency restrictions,particularly those who were,and remain,in urgent need of the many treatments and procedures can rather easily be described as preventing total collapse,however twelve months on,can our Health Service be said to be in an acceptable condition to allow us confidence for the mid term future ?

I do not accept that what you describe as my "casual attitude" is thanks to any other grouping,but rather more reflective of my own attitudes,which,just for clarity does NOT involve me actively seeking out elderly or vulnerable people to infect.

You can of course "Look at Brazil",a reaction particularly used across the media,who have moved seamlessly from Continent to Continent in search of someplace,anyplace, far worse than ourselves pour "encourager les autres",however if we simply engage in these endless comparisons,we will learn nothing as each Country has so many disparate elements that the comparisons are moot.

We may well have collectively prevented the worse from happening,I very much hope so,but in a Country of almost 5 million free people,not all are of a hive mind mentality.

Life itself will continue,and we will adapt,hopefully without the need for FEAR being the major motivating factor.

Captain_Crash

Multipass wrote: »

Untrue, my niece just got an appointment, she’s 30, no underlying conditions.

There have been some issues with scheduling.... a family member of mine in England got a call at the beginning of the rollout despite being in his 50’s and having no underlying issues. Rang the NHS and asked what the story was and was told if you have an appointment it’s easier to just go and that it was likely he has the same name as someone who should be on the list.... he was told that the rollout was so fast that there were loads of issues like that and to speed things up they didn’t bother correcting them.

Not saying your niece isn’t eligible by the way, just that there are plenty of people getting jabs in the uk who aren’t at the top of the queue!

Neagra

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh Christ almighty.

Maybe I should use capitals as comprehension seems to be an issue.

ITS NOT THAT EVERYTHING RESTRICTED IS JUDGED AS AUTOMATICALLY BEING MORE RISKY THEN THOSE THAT ARE NOT, ITS THAT THEY ARE DEEMED LESS ESSENTIAL

WOODIES IS MORE ESSENTIAL THAN PEENEYS ???
CURRYS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HOUSING???

Comprehension or stupidity?
whichever excuse you want to give we will accept.

rovers_runner

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Oh Christ almighty.

Maybe I should use capitals as comprehension seems to be an issue.

ITS NOT THAT EVERYTHING RESTRICTED IS JUDGED AS AUTOMATICALLY BEING MORE RISKY THEN THOSE THAT ARE NOT, ITS THAT THEY ARE DEEMED LESS ESSENTIAL

Raind, its good to know that this sage like wisdom you have imparted will be here for all to review when all this nonsense is over.

I look forward to reading back over some of these threads in years to come and thinking, God what ever happened to raind or Kermit, did they struggle afterwards? were they able to accept people moving on and getting their lives back.

It will make a good study, how the ascetics dealt with the opening of society post lockdowns.

Penfailed

Multipass wrote: »

Untrue, my niece just got an appointment, she’s 30, no underlying conditions.

Millions of Brits in their 20s?

Riodej1578

Please please remove the 5k limit and make it county wide. Will make no difference to case numbers but huge difference to people's mental health.

thebaz

As figures in hospital continue to fall, people here who question the longest lockdown in the world are called flat earthers .

Think its time to sign off, people have really lost ther grip of normailty .

PTH2009

This has to be the last very last full lockdown

None of this 'Government say another full lockdown could be just weeks away' type of stuff

Sharpyshoot

Riodej1578 wrote: »

Please please remove the 5k limit and make it county wide. Will make no difference to case numbers but huge difference to people's mental health.

County wide is a given. No more Garda with the what is the purpose of your journey.

Tork

It's easier to stick Gardai on the side of the road listening to lies from motorists than to get them to do proper policing.

PintOfView

AlekSmart wrote: »

Arguement is fine in my book.

I do not suggest we ignore it,never have.

We are however going to HAVE to live with it.

The Health Services position remains as perilous today as it was on Day 1 of Covid.

Our compliance with the emergency restrictions,particularly those who were,and remain,in urgent need of the many treatments and procedures can rather easily be described as preventing total collapse,however twelve months on,can our Health Service be said to be in an acceptable condition to allow us confidence for the mid term future ?

I do not accept that what you describe as my "casual attitude" is thanks to any other grouping,but rather more reflective of my own attitudes,which,just for clarity does NOT involve me actively seeking out elderly or vulnerable people to infect.

You can of course "Look at Brazil",a reaction particularly used across the media,who have moved seamlessly from Continent to Continent in search of someplace,anyplace, far worse than ourselves pour "encourager les autres",however if we simply engage in these endless comparisons,we will learn nothing as each Country has so many disparate elements that the comparisons are moot.

We may well have collectively prevented the worse from happening,I very much hope so,but in a Country of almost 5 million free people,not all are of a hive mind mentality.

Life itself will continue,and we will adapt,hopefully without the need for FEAR being the major motivating factor.

In the medium to long term I agree, we're going to have to live with it.
However, with vaccines in the process of being rolled out, it would seem foolish to now snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by dropping our guard.

Surely we can hold on for another couple of months, till the vulnerable and elderly are all vaccinated.
At that stage we could probably tolerate a degree of spread without too much risk to either the health service or the majority who catch it.

Re the health service, that's a big discussion all on its own. A backlog will have built up so they will be flat out for a long time after covid.

Brazil is a glaring example today of a country where the leadership were against lockdowns, etc. They've had multiple health ministers in the past year, each leaving due to not being given the support to do what they thought best. Naturally it will be trotted out to show what could happen, or could have happened, if we took our eye off the ball.
And surely we can learn from experiences in other countries, like Brazil, etc!

On being free people, freedom is not an absolute concept. One person's freedom can impact negatively on someone else.
I would think that the common good, for the largest number of people, must trump what people refer to as individual freedom.

Hopefully all this will become academic in the next few months!

finalfurlong

Riodej1578 wrote: »

Please please remove the 5k limit and make it county wide. Will make no difference to case numbers but huge difference to people's mental health.

Have to agree,However i read yesterday a headline saying that nphet were split on issue.I read on expecting to see a 5km v 20 km/county issue.The article went on to say that there was an even split between members who wanted to retain 5km and those who wanted it REDUCED to 2km.This really shows how misguided and impervious they are to life as lived.Bluff needs to be called but they seem to have carte blanche from government which is insane,They went on tonight with a clear run from media to patronise people for wanting to move !and talk! to each other-This is Orwellian and beyond b elief-depressing stuff,

Riodej1578

Sharpyshoot wrote: »

County wide is a given. No more Garda with the what is the purpose of your journey.

Really? I'm not so sure but certainly hope you a right.

Riodej1578

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fine-gael-tds-call-on-government-to-end-rolling-lockdowns-1.4519218?mode=amp

Micky 32

Sharpyshoot wrote: »

County wide is a given. No more Garda with the what is the purpose of your journey.

The last county wide restrictions had gardai at the county borders asking the purpose of the journey.

Micky 32

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40251668.html

“”The Government will discuss scrapping the 5km travel limit at next Tuesday’s Cabinet meeting.””


“”Health Minister Stephen Donnelly confirmed that when Ireland has vaccinated the most vulnerable, we can expect to see "significantly less illness and death" which will allow people to return to more normal lives.“”


However the next two weeks are worrying :pac:

Doctor Jimbob

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I don’t believe for one second the test centres are conspiracy to justify lockdown.
They doesn’t mean they won’t cause lockdown though.

They are another product of an abysmally slow reaction that started in March 2020. It’s only now an adequate testing protocol is in place.

My concern is the data these centres will generate will yet again lead to more conservativeness. I honestly believe they will be the cause of schools closing again. I struggle to believe the data will be accessed pragmatically and the positivity rate will be factored into any decisions made.

As regards your last point about easing restrictions would piss off a significant amount of pro restriction people.

Removing the travel restrictions and reopening gyms, pools and barbers etc surely can be justified with the current vaccination progress?

Do you honestly think we will justify reopening to those people, with HIGHER case numbers?

All fair points I don't really disagree with TBH. The reason I think we'll justify reopening with higher case numbers but lower positivity is there's been a lot of noise from government about us not getting case numbers as low as we did last year again. It's entirely possible that's an attempt to soften people up for keeping restrictions for longer, but I have a feeling it's an attempt to soften people in favour of restrictions up for a move away from focusing on case numbers. Suppose we'll see next week when the leaks ramp up.