Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

gozunda

Kivaro wrote: »

Delighted to hear stories this morning of people enjoying themselves all around the country over the weekend. Many coastal towns were packed with reports of long queues for fish & chips and deli food. I'm sure lots of people went beyond their 20 km limit across county borders in order to get sea air into their lungs and to walk along the beach.

RTE will be livid about this, and they will probably have their how-hanging-fruit crack RTE Investigates Team on the case to find out more about these restrictions breakers who were enjoying their newfound freedoms.

Wait until the good weather arrives later this week .........

Did ye not hear the news Kivaro? Apparently some reckon it's all a big secret - but people are now able to travel anywhere in their county, can partake of in exercise and even buy take away food! And its all above board!!!!

And with 15 out of our lovely 26 counties having coastline sure most people don't have to go elsewhere to have access to the coast

So no - probably very few "restrictions breakers". Just ordinary people out enjoying themselves . :pac:

But ssshhh we don't want to tell too many people now do we ...

I think you might need to stop listening and reading the popular media tbh ...

Allinall

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Exactly

Completed insulated from the harsh reality on the ground

What has that got to do with their salary?

ypres5

FlubberJones wrote: »

Yep, I expect to be travelling prior to this, I'm hoping Aug to be on the continent. Like so many others... I need to get away!!!!

I'd hope so too but with our 'abundance of caution' policy and Donnelly's recent squaring up to the EU god knows where we'll be.

charlie14

darconio wrote: »

I've already posted this million times, I hope this clarifies that yes, the death toll, is/was inflated to include people that didn't die directly from Covid.

This comes from an official source:

https://www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/files/2020-07/Analysis-of-excess-all-cause-mortality-in-Ireland-during-the-COVID-19-epidemic_0.pdf

As of mid April, in line with World Health Organization (WHO) guidance, death reporting was extended to include deaths both in patients with probable COVID-19 in addition to deaths among confirmed cases.
By definition, such deaths must result from a clinically compatible illness, in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID-19 (for example, trauma).

A lot of probable, probably he died from Covid, in doubt add him/her to the death toll

There were quite a few countries attemping to downplay Covid-19 deaths due to their own incompetance in dealing with this pandemic.
Some countries used a system whereby if someone tested positive for Covid-19 and subsequently died 30 days after testing positive, their death was not recorded as being due to Covid-19. There is even one country where if someone was being treated in ICU for Covid-19 and subsequently died outside a certain time-frame the death was not recorded as being due to Covid-19.
The excess death numbers have now exposed much of that for what it was.


I would not be overly impressed with the WHO in this regard either.

They have been more like an opposition political party attempting to be all things to everyone rather than a world health organisation.


They gave a lot of ammunition earlier on to those attempting to downplay the seriousness of this pandemic with their IFR (infection fatality rate) of 0.23%. which has now been shown to be a nonsense.

Appointing Johan Giesecke in September to the vice chair of their Strategic and Technical Advisory Group on Infection Disease where he reports to the Director General on pandemic response said all that needed to be said on thw WHO for me.
This is the person who was exposed in August as the prime mover behimd Sweden`s immoral naturally acquired herd immunity strategy. A strategy which much earlier than September, from Sweden`s own data, had been shown as a complete failure.

silverharp

I was cycling back past the Hellfire club near Rathfarnham, was a mess on Saturday with cars blocking the road, parked on yellow lines etc.

darconio

charlie14 wrote: »

There were quite a few countries attemping to downplay Covid-19 deaths due to their own incompetance in dealing with this pandemic.
Some countries used a system whereby if someone tested positive for Covid-19 and subsequently died 30 days after testing positive, their death was not recorded as being due to Covid-19. There is even one country where if someone was being treated in ICU for Covid-19 and subsequently died outside a certain time-frame the death was not recorded as being due to Covid-19.
The excess death numbers have now exposed much of that for what it was.


I would not be overly impressed with the WHO in this regard either.

They have been more like an opposition political party attempting to be all things to everyone rather than a world health organisation.


They gave a lot of ammunition earlier on to those attempting to downplay the seriousness of this pandemic with their IFR (infection fatality rate) of 0.23%. which has now been shown to be a nonsense.

Appointing Johan Giesecke in September to the vice chair of their Strategic and Technical Advisory Group on Infection Disease where he reports to the Director General on pandemic response said all that needed to be said on thw WHO for me.
This is the person who was exposed in August as the prime mover behimd Sweden`s immoral naturally acquired herd immunity strategy. A strategy which much earlier than September, from Sweden`s own data, had been shown as a complete failure.

Not sure what has this anything to do with the fact that the death toll, in Ireland, was inflated in accordance with the WHO directive.

We can discuss restrictions/lockdowns and we can have different opinions, but we cannot twist the reality and have a subjective view of it.

charlie14

darconio wrote: »

Not sure what has this anything to do with the fact that the death toll, in Ireland, was inflated in accordance with the WHO directive.

We can discuss restrictions/lockdowns and we can have different opinions, but we cannot twist the reality and have a subjective view of it.

The reality is that we have no complete official figures for cause of death in Ireland for 2020. Only assumptions and suppositions



The same assumptions and supposition have been made for other countries over the past year, but when official excess death figures became know for those countries, those assumptions and suppositions were shown to be false with those excess deaths all being during the periods when there were subsequent Covid waves.


It`s nothing to do with twisting reality. It`s what the official figures from Eurostat show. So unless there is another killer virus running in tandem with Covid-19 that we haven`t heard off as being a cause of those excess deaths, then I cannot see any other explaination for them.

FintanMcluskey

charlie14 wrote: »

The reality is that we have no complete official figures for cause of death in Ireland for 2020. Only assumptions and suppositions



The same assumptions and supposition have been made for other countries over the past year, but when official excess death figures became know for those countries, those assumptions and suppositions were shown to be false with those excess deaths all being during the periods when there were subsequent Covid waves.


It`s nothing to do with twisting reality. It`s what the official figures from Eurostat show. So unless there is another killer virus running in tandem with Covid-19 that we haven`t heard off as being a cause of those excess deaths, then I cannot see any other explaination for them.

The term killer virus is amusing

There is a good chance you won’t know you have it, if you do get it there is a 99.7% survival rate last I heard

It’s not going to make a very exciting film

Dr. Bre

silverharp wrote: »

I was cycling back past the Hellfire club near Rathfarnham, was a mess on Saturday with cars blocking the road, parked on yellow lines etc.

What’s your point here?

Dr. Bre

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

The term killer virus is amusing

There is a good chance you won’t know you have it, if you do get it there is a 99.7% survival rate last I heard

It’s not going to make a very exciting film

Not so deadly virus

_Kaiser_

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

The term killer virus is amusing

There is a good chance you won’t know you have it, if you do get it there is a 99.7% survival rate last I heard

It’s not going to make a very exciting film

I can't link it but there's a video going around on Whatsapp (was sent it this morning) with Leo and Michael D as Luke and Yoda and although it's obviously a pisstake, the points about the fatality rate, median age and the impact of it all are spot on.

As usual, the best humour has elements of truth in it.

Fandymo

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Point is they want to maintain the stance on travel since this started, i.e. Do Not Travel...

No one's going to take a flight for holidays with these Govt. Restrictions in place, and that's what they want.

If you are vaccinated, you are now exempt from hotel quarantine.

FintanMcluskey

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I can't link it but there's a video going around on Whatsapp (was sent it this morning) with Leo and Michael D as Luke and Yoda and although it's obviously a pisstake, the points about the fatality rate, median age and the impact of it all are spot on.

As usual, the best humour has elements of truth in it.

As that video said, “if we change course at this stage we will look like ejits”

And that’s the problem, they can’t “change course” from being the globes most suppressed, as after having caused record unemployment levels and destroying the country, to change course now is an admittance they got it wrong

normanoffside

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I can't link it but there's a video going around on Whatsapp (was sent it this morning) with Leo and Michael D as Luke and Yoda and although it's obviously a pisstake, the points about the fatality rate, median age and the impact of it all are spot on.

As usual, the best humour has elements of truth in it.

I assume it’s this one?

https://twitter.com/leptagon2/status/1383693180059619328?s=21

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

The term killer virus is amusing

There is a good chance you won’t know you have it, if you do get it there is a 99.7% survival rate last I heard

It’s not going to make a very exciting film

99.4%

darconio

charlie14 wrote: »

The reality is that we have no complete official figures for cause of death in Ireland for 2020. Only assumptions and suppositions

The same assumptions and supposition have been made for other countries over the past year, but when official excess death figures became know for those countries, those assumptions and suppositions were shown to be false with those excess deaths all being during the periods when there were subsequent Covid waves.


It`s nothing to do with twisting reality. It`s what the official figures from Eurostat show. So unless there is another killer virus running in tandem with Covid-19 that we haven`t heard off as being a cause of those excess deaths, then I cannot see any other explaination for them.

So you agree that the death toll, in Ireland, was inflated in accordance with the WHO directive.
Just want to make sure that this is established as unconfutable truth, before somebody comes out with the usual CT bull$hit.
I agree we don't know the official figures but the hysteria that was created, was only to support the narrative that we are/were facing the worst plague in the history of mankind.

normanoffside

normanoffside wrote: »

I assume it’s this one?

https://twitter.com/leptagon2/status/1383693180059619328?s=21

Or this one

https://twitter.com/leptagon2/status/1382677067578363905?s=21

Graham

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

As that video said, “if we change course at this stage we will look like ejits”

And that’s the problem, they can’t “change course” from being the globes most suppressed, as after having caused record unemployment levels and destroying the country, to change course now is an admittance they got it wrong

Reality check (not from a meme)

Cases are dropping.
Hospitalisations are dropping
Vaccinations are increasing
Restrictions are being eased.

scamalert

Graham wrote: »

Reality check (not from a meme)

Cases are dropping.
Hospitalisations are dropping
Vaccinations are increasing
Restrictions are being eased.

Dripping water hollows out stone, not through force but through persistence. :pac:

TomTomTim

Graham wrote: »

Reality check (not from a meme)

Cases are dropping.
Hospitalisations are dropping
Vaccinations are increasing
Restrictions are being eased.

Mainly ones that have little impact on our day to day lives

charlie14

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

The term killer virus is amusing

There is a good chance you won’t know you have it, if you do get it there is a 99.7% survival rate last I heard

It’s not going to make a very exciting film

Even if your figure is a bit simplistic Fintan as to the percentages that are most suseptible to dying should they become infected, they are also as an overall figure incorrect.
To date there have been 141M Covid-19 infections world-wide and 3.01M deaths. That is not 0.3%. It is over seven times higher at 2.14%.


Not sure about it being the basis for a film, but there have been some made based on less world-wide deaths, or countries where for whatever reason their deaths were greater by as much as 10% or more than the previous year.

_Kaiser_

normanoffside wrote: »

Or this one

https://twitter.com/leptagon2/status/1382677067578363905?s=21

Yup that one.

gozunda

darconio wrote: »

So you agree that the death toll, in Ireland, was inflated in accordance with the WHO directive.
Just want to make sure that this is established as unconfutable truth, before somebody comes out with the usual CT bull$hit.
I agree we don't know the official figures but the hysteria that was created, was only to support the narrative that we are/were facing the worst plague in the history of mankind.

Part of that is because you can have a clinical diagnosis (ie a doctor verifies the patients condition from symptoms and subsequent medical outcomes - that a person died of covid) and / or a lab / pm based diagnosis of death from Covid. And yes there is always room for some error - both ways - in regard to any total figure

Eitherway Ireland has a relatively low death per capita something other countries have not achieved.

And despite a large spike in the number of deaths in the month of January - restrictions meant that the infection rate was reduced fairly quickly..

But perhaps more importantly the pandemic is not just about death rates. New cases up to present have been used as an predictor of likely hospital cases and those in need of critical care of all ages

And where you get a rapid rise in new cases then that's potentially a problem for managing the rate of infection overall.

And if we leave off with the usual tabloid headlines and worst case scenarios beloved of modelers - we know this is not the worst plague ever. What it is - is infectious enough to make enough people sick to put serious pressure on our healthcare and other systems.

At present we're still managing that rate of infection until we get people vaccinated.
Thats where we are.

Graham

scamalert wrote: »

Dripping water hollows out stone, not through force but through persistence. :pac:

I hear you about persistent drips :pac:

It's a pandemic.

It's unlikely to be permanent regardless of what other posters/memes/videos/tweets might suggest

charlie14

darconio wrote: »

So you agree that the death toll, in Ireland, was inflated in accordance with the WHO directive.
Just want to make sure that this is established as unconfutable truth, before somebody comes out with the usual CT bull$hit.
I agree we don't know the official figures but the hysteria that was created, was only to support the narrative that we are/were facing the worst plague in the history of mankind.

Where did you get that from in my post.
The uncomfortable truth for anyone attempting to play down the number of deaths due to Covid-19 is in the Eurostat monthly excess deaths figures.

These figures are the official figures for each E.U. country other than Ireland, because there are no official Irish figures available. They do not list cause of death, but it would be stretching credulity attemping to say with the large increases in excess deaths coinciding with the various Covid waves, they were due to anything other than due to Covid-19.


Who knows, when we get the official figures we may have bucked the trend and be one of the top countries in the world in keeping Covid deaths low, but it would be perhaps naive and misleading to assume we have just based on assumptions and incomplete figure.
Another thread on here in relation to another country had a number of posters who were doing just that as late as Mid December predicting less deaths than the previous year. When the official figures were published deaths were over 10% greater.

PTH2009

Hard not to see the likes of NPHET/Staines etc hanging around like a bad smell when/if we go back to somewhat normal (more normal than 2020) and been in the media with there negative attention spanning headlines

There should be no mention of 'going back into lockdown' and likes. Like Christmas it could blow up in there faces

paddyisreal

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/lockdown-ireland-pints-outdoor-dining-23939842

Great to see that the pressure from Northern Ireland policy's is having an effect. Harris doesn't mention it but we all know they have to start opening now.

darconio

charlie14 wrote: »

Where did you get that from in my post.
The uncomfortable truth for anyone attempting to play down the number of deaths due to Covid-19 is in the Eurostat monthly excess deaths figures.

These figures are the official figures for each E.U. country other than Ireland, because there are no official Irish figures available. They do not list cause of death, but it would be stretching credulity attemping to say with the large increases in excess deaths coinciding with the various Covid waves, they were due to anything other than due to Covid-19.


Who knows, when we get the official figures we may have bucked the trend and be one of the top countries in the world in keeping Covid deaths low, but it would be perhaps naive and misleading to assume we have just based on assumptions and incomplete figure.
Another thread on here in relation to another country had a number of posters who were doing just that as late as Mid December predicting less deaths than the previous year. When the official figures were published deaths were over 10% greater.

gozunda wrote: »

Part of that is because you can have a clinical diagnosis (ie a doctor verifies the patients condition from symptoms and subsequent medical outcomes - that a person died of covid) and / or a lab / pm based diagnosis of death from Covid. And yes there is always room for some error - both ways - in regard to any total figure

Eitherway Ireland has a relatively low death per capita something other countries have not achieved.

And despite a large spike in the number of deaths in the month of January - restrictions meant that the infection rate was reduced fairly quickly..

But perhaps more importantly the pandemic is not just about death rates. New cases up to present have been used as an predictor of likely hospital cases and those in need of critical care of all ages

And where you get a rapid rise in new cases then that's potentially a problem for managing the rate of infection overall.

And if we leave off with the usual tabloid headlines and worst case scenarios beloved of modelers - we know this is not the worst plague ever. What it is - is infectious enough to make enough people sick to put serious pressure on our healthcare and other systems.

At present we're still managing that rate of infection until we get people vaccinated.
Thats where we are.

A very long hyperbole, but in conclusion, can we agree, as stated in the official document, that the death toll, in Ireland, was inflated in accordance with the WHO directives?
I'm not looking for the reason behind, can we at least admit it?

scamalert

paddyisreal wrote: »

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/lockdown-ireland-pints-outdoor-dining-23939842

Great to see that the pressure from Northern Ireland policy's is having an effect. Harris doesn't mention it but we all know they have to start opening now.

well its a bit hard to ignore fact that we need political intervention to cut trough this, otherwise if not challenged we would be no1 like North Korea as seems only when pointed out how wrong our decisions are that goverment actually backtracks.

Graham

scamalert wrote: »

well its a bit hard to ignore fact that we need political intervention to cut trough this, otherwise if not challenged we would be no1 like North Korea as seems only when pointed out how wrong our decisions are that goverment actually backtracks.

That and the fact that case numbers are dropping, hospitalisations are dropping, ICU numbers are dropping, vaccinations are increasing.

Actually now I see it typed out, it makes so much more sense than some imagined 'political intervention'.

paddyisreal

Graham wrote: »

That and the fact that case numbers are dropping, hospitalisations are dropping, ICU numbers are dropping, vaccinations are increasing.

Actually now I see it typed out, it makes so much more sense than some imagined 'political intervention'.

If all fairness if it wasn't for Northern Ireland loosing restrictions none of the above would matter to the government, nphet. They are been pushed to make decisions thank God.

Graham

paddyisreal wrote: »

If all fairness if it wasn't for Northern Ireland loosing restrictions none of the above would matter

That's just not a particularly logical conclusion.

The point of the restrictions and vaccinations were to get us to a position where restrictions could safely be relaxed.

Exactly what is happening now.

mightyreds

paddyisreal wrote: »

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/lockdown-ireland-pints-outdoor-dining-23939842

Great to see that the pressure from Northern Ireland policy's is having an effect. Harris doesn't mention it but we all know they have to start opening now.

The north being awash with barber/hairdresser bookings for Friday and hotels/pubs will be the same in a few weeks will have to put some pressure on

paddyisreal

Graham wrote: »

That's just not a particularly logical conclusion.

The point of the restrictions and vaccinations were to get us to a position where restrictions could safely be relaxed.

Exactly what is happening now.

So the relaxation of restrictions in NI has had no effect on the policies here? Of course it has

paddyisreal

mightyreds wrote: »

The north being awash with barber/hairdresser bookings for Friday and hotels/pubs will be the same in a few weeks will have to put some pressure on

Of course it will,. There will be cars full with people going to buy jocks in pennies and a few beers afterwards and the government know it. Outdoor dining will be open here by the 2,3rd week of May I would think

Graham

paddyisreal wrote: »

So the relaxation of restrictions in NI has had no effect on the policies here? Of course it has

Case number, hospitalisations, ICU numbers and vaccinations are the main drivers.

I do understand why that's a bitter pill for the anti-nphet brigade. It must really stick in the throat to see their approach is working.

Silentcorner

Graham wrote: »

That and the fact that case numbers are dropping, hospitalisations are dropping, ICU numbers are dropping, vaccinations are increasing.

Actually now I see it typed out, it makes so much more sense than some imagined 'political intervention'.

And yet again, it needs to be pointed out, that many of us were pointing out this months ago...the surge ended at the end of Jan...it wasn't lock downs that ended it, perhaps lock downs prevented a percentage more infections, what percentage is anyone's guess...but the curve flattened itself like it always does.

You can perhaps understand caution until the end of March, and I mean level 3, but we went full caution and are still in full cautious mode....completely unnecessary and ridiculously expensive decisions that will have huge ramifications for this state.

12 months into this and the news gets better and better, we know our published death rate is completely misleading and no where near as deadly as we were led to believe, we know that healthy people do not transmit the virus, we know outdoor activity is completely safe....

We also know, in this country, what time's of the year we are most vulnerable to a surge.

If a bunch of amateurs on an online forum can be more consistently correct than our political leaders and media you'd have to put our complete lack of strong leaders as one of the most devastating elements of this whole health, economic and social mess we have created for ourselves this will takes us years to emerge from.

Graham

Silentcorner wrote: »

And yet again, it needs to be pointed out, that many of us were pointing out this months ago...the surge ended at the end of Jan...it wasn't lock downs that ended it, perhaps lock downs prevented a percentage more infections, what percentage is anyone's guess...but the curve flattened itself like it always does.

That might have been a good point but for other EU countries facing increasing restrictions in the face of rising cases.

Maybe it's because we have better weather :rolleyes:

paddyisreal

Graham wrote: »

Case number, hospitalisations, ICU numbers and vaccinations are the main drivers.

I do understand why that's a bitter pill for the anti-nphet brigade. It must really stick in the throat to see their approach is working.

And Northern Ireland opening up, if they were still lockdown there would be no change here and if you think any differently you haven't being paying attention to how nphet, government are amongst the most cautious in Europe over the last year.

Del Griffith

gozunda wrote: »

Ha a fudge :pac:

Except of course that's not the case.

This was the claim being made by the solicitor (coroner) in question who claimed people's "principle cause of death" was being recorded as covid when he claimed "In reality, a lot of people have terminal cancer or multiple other serious co-morbidities"

That's not as you said "if you test positive" btw.

This is how cause of death is recorded in Ireland - just in case you're not aware



So yeah if you're in hospital with covid and you happen to have an existing heart condition - but it is covid-19 which is found to be responsible for your death as determined by a registered medical practitioner - then that's what gets entered in Part 1 (a).

If there are other co-morbidities and other significant conditions they get recorded on the death certificate as well.

So its the "principle disease or condition directly leading to death" which is relevant here.

So it's bs to try and claim that "you can literally die of anything and if you test positive, you're in the numbers".

And in addition If you so happen to get hit and killed by a bus and you had an earlier positive test for covid and recovered (despite having a dicky heart) your cause of death will not be recorded as Covid-19.

Load of beside the point bollocks as usual, you can argue about the principal cause of death with the solicitor and coroner (he should find it amusing that you know more about his career profession that him, but let's not digress)

Here is my actual statement which you called a lie :

"you can literally die of anything and if you test positive, you're in the numbers".

As you well know, your chums in NPHET and RTE count all "covid related deaths" in the numbers. It doesn't have to be the PCoD - it all gets scooped up for the daily numbers (tm).

I've yet to find anything in your lengthy post that qualifies my line as "bs", so feel free to elaborate on that.

I'll just leave this here too, somewhat pertinent:

https://twitter.com/LeoVaradkar/status/1278995351169613824

PTH2009

Jesus its all unraveling isn't it

Silentcorner

PTH2009 wrote: »

Jesus its all unraveling isn't it

It was difficult to see how they could maintain the hysteria for the next few months....only the truly indoctrinated are supportive of these severe restrictions.

hynesie08

PTH2009 wrote: »

Jesus its all unraveling isn't it

What is? Your bleak outlook?

paddyisreal

Silentcorner wrote: »

It was difficult to see how they could maintain the hysteria for the next few months....only the truly indoctrinated are supportive of these severe restrictions.

What about the variants though? we must be wary of the variants and lockdown till the second coming

Silentcorner

paddyisreal wrote: »

What about the variants though? we must be wary of the variants and lockdown till the second coming

Remember Micheal warning us all that the variant was essentially a new virus...that was only a little over month ago...how wrong was he!!!!!!

The started to lose a lot of people when they extended the severe lock down into March, they did that at the beginning of Feb, they warned us about Paddy's day, Mothers Day, Easter....less and less people are listening...you can see that everywhere at this stage.

TomSweeney

arccosh wrote: »

disgraceful carry on, no moral backbone

jd1983

jd1983 wrote: »

If the pubs stayed open in summer, more people would have got the virus during the summer but the numbers would have still been low,

Apologies, I missed your response to my post until now.

Your entire argument seems to hinge on this one point quoted above, which I cannot get my head around. How would the numbers still be low if more people would have contracted the virus? You're contradicting yourself within the same sentence.

If the pubs were open all last summer, there would have been an explosion in numbers. what logic are you using to say that the numbers would have still been low?

Graham

Silentcorner wrote: »

It was difficult to see how they could maintain the hysteria for the next few months....only the truly indoctrinated are supportive of these severe restrictions.

Why?

They appear to have worked as intended to the point where they are now being relaxed.

gozunda

darconio wrote: »

A very long hyperbole, but in conclusion, can we agree, as stated in the official document, that the death toll, in Ireland, was inflated in accordance with the WHO directives?
I'm not looking for the reason behind, can we at least admit it?

I'm not sure you understand what the word hyperbole means tbh. Everything detailed is simply based on how things are.

But nope thats not was said at all. Do read the comment again.

And btw the WHO dont do "directives".

scamalert

Graham wrote: »

Why?

They appear to have worked as intended to the point where they are now being relaxed.

but why would they relax it then if it works so good shouldn't we keep it up then for another year or two ? surely we want to save everyone no ?

not serious btw ^ but seems this is the logic pro lowdown campers are using here