Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

ArthurDayne

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The young are being vaccinated so that they do not spread a potentially fatal disease to other people. It is perfectly reasonable to expect people to not threaten other people with death unnecessarily.



Suicide has not increased during the pandemic



https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/suicides-have-not-increased-during-pandemic-figures-indicate-1.4492985


https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56818876

Reasonableness rests on proportionality though. You say, correctly, that it is perfectly reasonable to expect people to not threaten other people with death unnecessarily. This principle, in any sensible society, is subject to and guided by the idea that what is reasonable should also be proportionate.

On a proportionality basis, if the old and vulnerable are given a vaccine then the necessity for younger people to have it is diminished quite significantly (much like the flu vaccine). It would therefore be wrong if we end up in a context where either: (a) strict restrictions continue until the young are vaccinated, long after the vulnerable have been vaccinated or (b) the young are consigned to virtual second class status in terms of civil liberties by virtue of not being vaccinated.

The argument of reasonableness around keeping others from danger should not be allowed to spill into overkill. The vaccination of the young should be promoted if the benefits outweigh the risks — but I would not be comfortable with vaccination of the young being a prerequisite for the enjoyment of civil liberties either for society as a whole or for young people to enjoy the freedoms bestowed on the older vaccinated population.

Boggles

Hellrazer wrote: »

MHQ has shown us that they are afraid to back down from bad decisions.

Again, the reality does not fit the narrative.

Fully vaccinated people will be exempted from hotel quarantine

Graham

Sobit1964 wrote: »

*As of the current statistics available. Did I do that right?

zero is a pretty easy statistic to analyse.

average_runner

Idbatterim wrote: »

I know several people in the last few days, declining the vaccine. I wont be a hypocrite here and then take this bull****, potentially dangerous vaccine! Why are the young and youngish being vaccinated ? They face virtually no risk. Could spend the millions saving more lives with suicide prevention etc

I have no issue with people not taking it, but ye should sign an agreement that ye won't take up a hospital bed or a bed in an ICU if you get the virus.

Hellrazer

Boggles wrote: »

Again, the reality does not fit the narrative.

Fully vaccinated people will be exempted from hotel quarantine

I did mean as a whole - not in minor changes to the MHQ. Its a flawed system and despite the dogs on the street knowing this they still push on with it and dig a deeper hole for themselves.

Boggles

Hellrazer wrote: »

I did mean as a whole - not in minor changes to the MHQ. Its a flawed system and despite the dogs on the street knowing this they still push on with it and dig a deeper hole for themselves.

It's a system that should have been introduced a lot sooner, if it had been whatever inevitable flaws could have been ironed out.

What was a flawed system was 30,000 to 40,000 "essential workers" arriving through out ports every week.

facehugger99

average_runner wrote: »

I have no issue with people not taking it, but ye should sign an agreement that ye won't take up a hospital bed or a bed in an ICU if you get the virus.

Should we get fat people to sign something similar if they don't agree to lose a few pounds?

average_runner

facehugger99 wrote: »

Should we get fat people to sign something similar if they don't agree to lose a few pounds?

Alot harder to lose a few pounds than take a simple injection that is free.

A Shaved Duck?

facehugger99 wrote: »

Should we get fat people to sign something similar if they don't agree to lose a few pounds?

Jesus thats some whataboutery..even for boards.

Degag

facehugger99 wrote: »

Should we get fat people to sign something similar if they don't agree to lose a few pounds?

Such a terrible analogy.

average_runner

The difference between those and the vaccine, is that all of those things depends on will power and the perfect human. There is no need for will power on the vaccine, as it is there for you already.

Now maybe the government should make smoking and drinking illegal, that would stop the above you posted.

Tenzor07

Vicxas wrote: »

Nothing to do with lockdown, people are just buying phones online now.

Carphone warehouse closing isn't exactly "Nothing to do with the lockdown" when it obviously is...

We've been in Lockdown for 13 months, people terrified to leave their homes and not permitted to travel to the high street or shopping centres... So what do they do? Order online..
With everyone ordering online it will be hard to get them back out purchasing locally and supporting jobs..

Less/no footfall in towns - Business close


Very sad to see in my local shopping centre where the Travel agents and the phone store is now boarded up due to the never ending lockdown..

hynesie08

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Carphone warehouse closing isn't exactly "Nothing to do with the lockdown" when it obviously is...

We've been in Lockdown for 13 months, people terrified to leave their homes and not permitted to travel to the high street or shopping centres... So what do they do? Order online..
With everyone ordering online it will be hard to get them back out purchasing locally and supporting jobs..

Less/no footfall in towns - Business close


Very sad to see in my local shopping centre where the Travel agents and the phone store is now boarded up due to the never ending lockdown..

So by that logic, why aren't eir, 3, virgin mobile and all the Chinese phone shops closing down?

Carphone warehouse failed because it was an outdated business model. It failed in the uk and it failed here.

average_runner

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Carphone warehouse closing isn't exactly "Nothing to do with the lockdown" when it obviously is...

We've been in Lockdown for 13 months, people terrified to leave their homes and not permitted to travel to the high street or shopping centres... So what do they do? Order online..
With everyone ordering online it will be hard to get them back out purchasing locally and supporting jobs..

Less/no footfall in towns - Business close


Very sad to see in my local shopping centre where the Travel agents and the phone store is now boarded up due to the never ending lockdown..

Nothing to do with lockdown. They closed them down in the UK before lockdown started and said Ireland will also go that way before lockdown started.


Was in a shopping centre at the weekend, Boots, Easons, cafes were all packed, Car phone empty, 3 and eir a queue out side it

Boggles

Tenzor07 wrote: »

We've been in Lockdown for 13 months

Have you?

That would explain a lot actually.

showpony1

Michael saying everyone will receive a vaccine by June, won't happen but sure why not say it anyway nothing will happen when it doesn't.

Degag

showpony1 wrote: »

Michael saying everyone will receive a vaccine by June, won't happen but sure why not say it anyway nothing will happen when it doesn't.

Where did he say that? The message of 80% by June doesn’t seem to have changed.

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

How is Xtra-Vision doing?

We need to open up immediately!! :eek:

Tenzor07

average_runner wrote: »

Nothing to do with lockdown. They closed them down in the UK before lockdown started and said Ireland will also go that way before lockdown started.
Was in a shopping centre at the weekend, Boots, Easons, cafes were all packed, Car phone empty, 3 and eir a queue out side it

Both Lockdown and Brexit are still contributing factors to the loss of physical retail as people order online, that's a fact.
Peoples behaviors have changed now due to the ongoing restrictions...
I'd attribute Easons, and Boots being packed as due to bored browsers, however people will just go online to buy expense items like phones.
Cafe's? Can't be ordered online!

Sharpyshoot

Nice day out if the bars were open with outdoor area. We are thirsty.

FintanMcluskey

facehugger99 wrote: »

Should we get fat people to sign something similar if they don't agree to lose a few pounds?

As mad as it sounds a covid would be much less an issue of obesity wasn’t as prevalent

average_runner

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Both Lockdown and Brexit are still contributing factors to the loss of physical retail as people order online, that's a fact.
Peoples behaviors have changed now due to the ongoing restrictions...
I'd attribute Easons, and Boots being packed as due to bored browsers, however people will just go online to buy expense items like phones.
Cafe's? Can't be ordered online!

hmmm, have you hit a new idea

average_runner

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

As mad as it sounds a covid would be much less an issue of obesity wasn’t as prevalent

Very true. Obesity would be less of an issue if Alcohol wasn't available and sugary snacks!!!

facehugger99

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

As mad as it sounds a covid would be much less an issue of obesity wasn’t as prevalent

Amazing with all the finger-wagging going on for the last 13 months that obese people seemed to escape any kind of telling off from Tony and his NPHET nodding dogs.

Degag

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

As mad as it sounds a covid would be much less an issue of obesity wasn’t as prevalent

Really? By what percentage? Because i don’t think it’d have much of an affect at all.

Sure, Covid would be much less of an issue if we didn’t live into our 80’s too. I guess we should all die younger should we?

Degag

Degag wrote: »

Really? By what percentage? Because i don’t think it’d have much of an affect at all.

Sure, Covid would be much less of an issue if we didn’t live into our 80’s too. I guess we should all die younger should we?

What a terrible analogy.

Miccoli

Degag wrote: »

Really? By what percentage? Because i don’t think it’d have much of an affect at all.

Sure, Covid would be much less of an issue if we didn’t live into our 80’s too. I guess we should all die younger should we?

The CDC found close to 80% of hospitalisations were overweight or obese.

facehugger99

facehugger99 wrote: »

Amazing with all the finger-wagging going on for the last 13 months that obese people seemed to escape any kind of telling off from Tony and his NPHET nodding dogs.

Well it would be a bit rich if they did so considering that they have closed gyms, pools etc etc for months on end.

FintanMcluskey

Degag wrote: »

Really? By what percentage? Because i don’t think it’d have much of an affect at all.

Sure, Covid would be much less of an issue if we didn’t live into our 80’s too. I guess we should all die younger should we?

It wasn’t my intention to offend anyone

Buts it not a made up assumption

https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/COVID-19_and_Obesity-The_2021_Atlas.pdf

As we show in this report, increased bodyweight is the second greatest predictor of hospitalisation and a high risk of death for people suffering from COVID-19. Only old age rates as a higher risk factor.
The unprecedented economic costs of COVID-19 are largely due to the measures taken to avoid the excess hospitalisation and need for treatment of the disease. Reducing one major risk factor, overweight, would have resulted in far less stress on health services and reduced the need to protect those services from being overwhelmed.
We show that in those countries where overweight affects only a minority of the adult population, the rates of death from COVID-19 are typically less than one tenth the levels found in countries where overweight affects the majority of adults.
We also show that the drivers of overweight – especially high levels of consumption of processed foods – are associated with mortality from COVID-19.

Unfortunately closing gyms and pools for about 6 of the last 7 months won’t help this issue in Ireland

It’s time to start understanding and following science

Degag

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What a terrible analogy.

Swooosh!

The Big Easy

average_runner wrote: »

Alot harder to lose a few pounds than take a simple injection that is free.

Yes, we should always choose the easier option, that will never end badly!

FintanMcluskey

average_runner wrote: »

Very true. Obesity would be less of an issue if Alcohol wasn't available and sugary snacks!!!

No obesity would be less of an issue if one didn’t eat a few thousand more calories per day than required to maintain weight.

Previously it didn’t bother me what others did with their bodies until my freedom was restricted to protect them

muddypuppy

bear1 wrote: »

Since when is going abroad illegal?

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-international-travel-5416194-Apr2021/

This is starting to feel like a huge middle finger to all the expat, immigrants, etc living in Ireland. Most EU countries can already travel between each others, and it will be fun to see us not being able to go abroad while most other countries have vaccine passports and so on. Double slap in the face for those that haven't seen their families in months, if not over a year.

Degag

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

No obesity would be less of an issue if one didn’t eat a few thousand more calories per day than required to maintain weight.

Previously it didn’t bother me what others did with their bodies until my freedom was restricted to protect them

Kinda like people not taking vaccines?

FintanMcluskey

Degag wrote: »

Kinda like people not taking vaccines?

Do vaccines protect one from poor lifestyle choices?

Degag

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

It wasn’t my intention to offend anyone

Buts it not a made up assumption

https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/COVID-19_and_Obesity-The_2021_Atlas.pdf


Unfortunately closing gyms and pools for about 6 of the last 7 months won’t help this issue in Ireland

It’s time to start understanding and following science

As far as i’m aware, someone who is medically ‘obese’ can actually be a relatively fit and healthy person. At least that used to be the case. Anyhow, i’m sure there is some linkage but there are probably linkages to loads of things that we may not understand for quite a while - or indeed never.

Obesity is not ever a choice either. Yes the majority of people can probably try and do something about it but often it can something like genetics etc.

Degag

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Do vaccines protect one from poor lifestyle choices?

I didn’t think the title of this forum we are posting in was called ‘Poor Lifestyle Choices?’

Pandiculation

muddypuppy wrote: »

This is starting to feel like a huge middle finger to all the expat, immigrants, etc living in Ireland. Most EU countries can already travel between each others, and it will be fun to see us not being able to go abroad while most other countries have vaccine passports and so on. Double slap in the face for those that haven't seen their families in months, if not over a year.

I haven't seen my Dublin relatives in months due to the county-to-county travel restrictions, never mind my continental ones.

I think though the Government would want to be a little bit more aware that Ireland's population isn't just made up of people who were born and have always lived in Ireland and even those of us who were have many connections abroad and into continental Europe. Not everyone's disappearing off to the Costa Del Sol for the beach and beer.

I fully comprehend that we need to prevent new variants coming in, but we also need to be a lot more pragmatic about how we deal with the travel issues.

We had months and months where we left the border wide open, while countries like Germany had extensive testing in place. We kinda did a half-assed mess of sticking up a few auld posters and most people were just wandering in and out, while there are significant domestic restrictions in place.

Now we seem to have gone from that to utterly draconian implementation of travel restrictions and we never seem to have managed to get to that pragmatic level of sensible and balanced controls, where everyone entering was tested or where there was some kind of serious control of verifiable quarantine-at-home put in place.

You'd have to wonder what we're up to sometimes.

Also, the UK's measures are likely driven by Brexiteer Tories, who also were absolutely laissez faire in the initial months of this crisis and now seem to have gone hardcore too. I'm sure that's also likely driven by their politics which is a tad xenophobic, to put it mildly.

I just don't know what we're implementing. It seems to be utterly disjointed most of the time.

I'm not just saying this for the sake of controversy or contrarianism, but this is 100% definitely feeding into how I will be voting in any upcoming elections. I'm shocked at how badly the whole thing has been handled, particularly since last Christmas and I've definitely lost confidence in the government parties. It just feels like we're floundering and going through phases of totally underestimating the risks and then overreacting to them when what should have been blatantly obvious happens.

ingo1984

muddypuppy wrote: »

This is starting to feel like a huge middle finger to all the expat, immigrants, etc living in Ireland. Most EU countries can already travel between each others, and it will be fun to see us not being able to go abroad while most other countries have vaccine passports and so on. Double slap in the face for those that haven't seen their families in months, if not over a year.

It may be a law, but no court would enforce it. Its like the 2,000 euro fine for going abroad on holidays, was scrapped after a week. I've had no problem travelling abroad to countries willing to accept travellers with a negative test and haven't seen a guard or had any hassle on my return.

facehugger99

Degag wrote: »

As far as i’m aware, someone who is medically ‘obese’ can actually be a relatively fit and healthy person. At least that used to be the case. Anyhow, i’m sure there is some linkage but there are probably linkages to loads of things that we may not understand for quite a while - or indeed never.

Obesity is not ever a choice either. Yes the majority of people can probably try and do something about it but often it can something like genetics etc.

Yeah, I'm sure the ICUs were full of lads that could have played outside center for Leinster.

SAMTALK

facehugger99 wrote: »

Yeah, I'm sure the ICUs were full of lads that could have played outside center for Leinster.

That is just being ridiculous !

M_Murphy57

Degag wrote: »

As far as i’m aware, someone who is medically ‘obese’ can actually be a relatively fit and healthy person. At least that used to be the case. Anyhow, i’m sure there is some linkage but there are probably linkages to loads of things that we may not understand for quite a while - or indeed never.

Obesity is not ever a choice either. Yes the majority of people can probably try and do something about it but often it can something like genetics etc.

It doesnt matter if you are a "fit fat" person or whether it was a choice.

Covid is more likely to result in severe symptoms, hospitalization and death in obese people.

The linkages are already well understood- the risk factors are age, being non white/POC, and (untreated) diabetes. Men more at risk than women too.

But obesity and diabetes are the only factors people can at least try to control.

It's a hard one to message when you on the one hand shut gyms and ask people to stay home, non essential medical appointments stopped, but yhen also ask people to somehow exercise more and get your diabetes and obesity under control on their own.

But just because Tony didnt call it out doesnt means it's not a cause.

charlie14

Sobit1964 wrote: »

Sweden is curious why you didn't actually read the study.

Nothing that curious about Sweden compared to its Nordic neighbours. Other that as a report by The Spectator put it when comparing European countries on a geographic basis, that for deaths it was an "exception".

lawred2

Degag wrote: »

As far as i’m aware, someone who is medically ‘obese’ can actually be a relatively fit and healthy person. At least that used to be the case. Anyhow, i’m sure there is some linkage but there are probably linkages to loads of things that we may not understand for quite a while - or indeed never.

Obesity is not ever a choice either. Yes the majority of people can probably try and do something about it but often it can something like genetics etc.

yeah but it's seriously rare like

If you're classified as medically obese - odds are you're not even close to being healthy

lawred2

M_Murphy57 wrote: »

It doesnt matter if you are a "fit fat" person or whether it was a choice.

Covid is more likely to result in severe symptoms, hospitalization and death in obese people.

The linkages are already well understood- the risk factors are age, being non white/POC, and (untreated) diabetes. Men more at risk than women too.

But obesity and diabetes are the only factors people can at least try to control.

It's a hard one to message when you on the one hand shut gyms and ask people to stay home, non essential medical appointments stopped, but yhen also ask people to somehow exercise more and get your diabetes and obesity under control on their own.

But just because Tony didnt call it out doesnt means it's not a cause.

It's about time the causes of obesity was tackled head on like every other destructive personal behavior

Yet obesity gets danced around for fear of hurting people's feelings...

Degag

facehugger99 wrote: »

Yeah, I'm sure the ICUs were full of lads that could have played outside center for Leinster.

Not what i said.

gozunda

zebastein wrote: »

France will announce the reopening of outdoor dining/drinking for mid-May. Though they are the most impacted European country at the moment, they plan for the future, because they are confident that the vaccination will put them in a much better position in a month time.

Ireland which had one of the lowest positivity rates for a month and a half now is still not able to plan anything. We need to wait 2/4/6 more weeks, these weeks are crucial, there are subjects of concern, ....

What in the name of dog is with the non stop Doom and Gloom or that Ireland is the Worstest country ever?

Have you been living on the moon perhaps? Ireland not planning anything wtf? Take a read.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/lockdown-restrictions-ireland-dublin-news-20428340

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40266422.html

We already have schools opened. We've already rolled back the stay at home /exercise locally restrictions etc with more rollback of restrictions to follow. We know this.

Atm France is having a ****show and has had rapidly rising case numbers And up to this they've had no roadmap at all.

Their current restrictions were extended countrywide on the 3rd of April and include a 10km restriction for any travel from a persons home except for essential reasons

A curfew for all areas of metropolitan France. Where again you can only leave your home for the specific reasons 

All schools are closed etc etc

So even as they make a huhaw about easing restrictions at some point in the future - the French Government are in reality desperately backpeddling and offering that restrictions will start to be rolled back in 2-6 weeks in an effort to keep people from saying "Zoot Alors!" - and going of a bit of old rioting as the French are fairly famous for tbf.

This is what is being promised with caveats in France atm

In a televised address on 31 March, Macron announced the country could re-open  "with strict rules" from mid-May – including bars, restaurants and cultural venues – that have been closed since 30 October of last year.

Primary schools are scheduled to reopen on 26 April, with junior and senior high schools opening the following week. 

The implementation of the measures is expected to be complicated, while trying to maintain social distancing and sanitary protocols and ensure the prevention of a fourth wave of the virus.

Also on Tuesday, a Senate fact-finding committee recommended the gradual reopening of certain cultural venues depending on potential risks, in collaboration with local elected officials, even if the dates won't be the same for all regions. 

https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20210415-macron-to-announce-roadmap-to-reopening-france-from-mid-may-covid-19-bars-restaurants-theatres

So yeah no doubt Ireland is definitely the worstest ever ...

Tenzor07

M_Murphy57 wrote: »

It's a hard one to message when you on the one hand shut gyms and ask people to stay home, non essential medical appointments stopped, but yhen also ask people to somehow exercise more and get your diabetes and obesity under control on their own..

Astounding the way Holohan hasn't permitted the restart of Sport and physical activity, can't even have a round of solo Golf, can't go for a group cycle or run, can't travel to somewhere less crowded for a Hike in the mountains or a cycle along the Waterford greenway if you live in Dublin...gyms closed even with restricted numbers and hygiene measures that would match an operating theater...

Regular physical activity is the prime modality for the prevention of numerous non-communicable diseases and has also been advocated for resilience against COVID-19 and other infectious diseases.

Higher level of habitual physical activity is associated with a 31% risk reduction

TomTomTim

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

No obesity would be less of an issue if one didn’t eat a few thousand more calories per day than required to maintain weight.

Previously it didn’t bother me what others did with their bodies until my freedom was restricted to protect them

I honestly don't know how they manage it? Where do they even get the time? I just about hit my 2,500 everyday.

OwenM

Degag wrote: »

As far as i’m aware, someone who is medically ‘obese’ can actually be a relatively fit and healthy person. At least that used to be the case. Anyhow, i’m sure there is some linkage but there are probably linkages to loads of things that we may not understand for quite a while - or indeed never.

Obesity is not ever a choice either. Yes the majority of people can probably try and do something about it but often it can something like genetics etc.

Nonsense, apart from some very rare conditions, it is a choice.