Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Boggles

francogarbanzo wrote: »

Ok great, this has gone nowhere and you’ve demonstrated a lack of understanding of civil liberties. I thought you were going to answer my original question.

You answered your own question.

It has fúck all to do with morals and more to with the "civil liberties" you like indulging in, as long as you get what you want morals can do one.

gozunda

niallo27 wrote: »

The Vaccine does not prevent you from getting or spreading the disease, you should really know this by now, its not that hard to follow.

Did I say otherwise?

As stated in relation to healthcare services covid is a new infectious disease - one which we had no prevention for. Now we do.

And the vaccines do stop the absolute majority of those vaccinated from getting seriously ill. you should really know this by now, its not that hard to follow

Pandiculation

The jury is still out on whether or not the vaccines (and there are several different technologies involved) produce sterilising immunity, meaning it prevents transmission.

We will know more on that as the vaccine programmes are more widespread. At the moment all they can say is it prevents symptomatic disease and very definitely seems to prevent hospitalisation.

You’ve also a potential where transmission between two vaccinated people may be very unlikely, so that potentially means that when we’re at a high level of vaccination, things can become much more normal.

This is basically live research. Nobody can give guarantees at present and they’re not doing.

lawred2

Pandiculation wrote: »

The jury is still out on whether or not the vaccines (and there are several different technologies involved) produce sterilising immunity, meaning it prevents transmission.

We will know more on that as the vaccine programmes are more widespread. At the moment all they can say is it prevents symptomatic disease and very definitely seems to prevent hospitalisation.

You’ve also a potential where transmission between two vaccinated people may be very unlikely, so that potentially means that when we’re at a high level of vaccination, things can become much more normal.

This is basically live research. Nobody can give guarantees at present and they’re not doing.

who cares if it doesn't prevent transmission once it reduces illness and hospitalisations!?

Sam Wheat90

Corby Trouser Press wrote: »

I will gladly "stir the pot" as you put it.

In fact, it is an obligation of living in a free society to point out these failures of governance.

That we are the only country in Europe not to be able to actually plan and make this happen is noteworthy.

Your "keep yourr head down and don't question anything" attitude is embarrassing also!

You seem to have a fixation with embarrassment. Why? Childhood issues maybe?

Boggles

Corby Trouser Press wrote: »

I will gladly "stir the pot" as you put it.

In fact, it is an obligation of living in a free society to point out these failures of governance.

That we are the only country in Europe not to be able to actually plan and make this happen is noteworthy.

Your "keep yourr head down and don't question anything" attitude is embarrassing also!

You think UEFA should get to dictate our public health policy during a pandemic?

francogarbanzo

Boggles wrote: »

You answered your own question.

It has fúck all to do with morals and more to with the "civil liberties" you like indulging in, as long as you get what you want morals can do one.

You've proven to have nothing behind the wall of flippancy and sanctimoniousness. It is clear you have not thought your position through.

Captain Cesc

paddyisreal wrote: »

Never a truer word spoken. How the **** are we the only country that can't facilitate this through antigen testing etc. It actually shows up how the last year has been handled - piss poorly by a bunch of lads sitting in an ivory tower with no grasp of reality. like golf, outdoor sports , outdoor dining. Incapable to think outside the box whatsoever. Nphet say to risky then the government says no. All the government wanted was a layer so they didn't have to make a decision and by God did they get it.

Almost as embarrassing as when we tried to host the 2004 Euros and could only show UEFA a field. Hundreds of thousands vaccinated and can’t facilitate 11k. Ridiculous

gozunda

niallo27 wrote: »

Yes really, you can still get the virus if you vaccinated. Now its doesn't matter a **** because you wont get sick, but tell that to Tony and crew.

Is that you are just catching up on this now?

Yes you're less likley to get seriously ill if you are vaccinated.

So far we are at 17.8% first vaccines administered and 7.33% second dose vaccines administered.

But hey let's ignore that and do our own thing right?

Even the UK and Isreal didn't start to open until they had a significant amount of the total population vaccinated. Yeah but we know better than them. Fek "Tony and his crew" eh?

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

Hey you are wonderfully right and sensible about it all; so you can do it all? We all know all this and up to each of us. Not anyone's responsibility and choice but ours.

But people can’t go the gym or exercise class or swimming pool all good for physical health because they are closed. And that’s not even starting on mental health a lovely sunny afternoon people can’t even sit outside a coffee shop meet a friend and chat. Again because people do not have the choice.There could be a litany of mental health problems down the road for some people and no one seems to care. It’s appalling.

Pandiculation

lawred2 wrote: »

who cares if it doesn't prevent transmission once if reduces illness and hospitalisations!?

I’d say given that it’s behaved very unpredictability, notably what’s going on in Brazil for example where you’re seeing a lot of younger people being hit very hard, there’s going to be an abundance of caution from the medical world.

It’s still a very new virus so you’re just not going to get someone going out making broad claims they can’t stand behind scientifically.

If policy makers want to make decisions based on calculated risks, that’s another issue entirely and I think the two shouldn’t be confused.

Life isn’t without risk but you can’t expect science to give answers based on politics nor should you expect politics to be purely based on the same criteria either. There’s always going to be a degree of balancing risks in public policy.

I think the Irish commentary crucified the government for not adhering to the letter of medical advice and that’s why we are now frozen to the spot.

Boggles

gozunda wrote: »

So far we are at 17.8% first vaccines administered and 7.33% second dose vaccines administered.

Just to put more a positive spin on it, which I know is frowned upon in here.

1.3 million doses have been administered to date, with 24.5% of the eligible population receiving one dose and 10% of the population fully vaccinated.

Corby Trouser Press

Boggles wrote: »

You think UEFA should get to dictate our public health policy during a pandemic?

I think our Public Health policy should be able to look ahead and make a reasonable conclusion that outdoor events with capacity limits should be able to take place in the near future.

Why wouldn't they?

Do you think every other country from Scotland to Denmark to Romania have got it wrong and we are correct?

Do you think that UEFA have forced all of the other 11 governments to make this happen?

Do you not think it more likely that all the governments and local authorities across Europe have said to themselves "OK, we should be able to manage this, it'll be Mid-June, things will be better by then"?

Do you even think at all or just blindly spasm against any anti-restrictions post you see here?

gozunda

Boggles wrote: »

Just to put more a positive spin on it, which I know is frowned upon in here.

The first set of figures relate those who have received vaccination out of the total population.

Yours is even better!

Boggles

Corby Trouser Press wrote: »

I think our Public Health policy should be able to look ahead and make a reasonable conclusion that outdoor events with capacity limits should be able to take place in the near future.

Why wouldn't they?

Do you think every other country from Scotland to Denmark to Romania have got it wrong and we are correct?

Do you think that UEFA have forced all of the other 11 governments to make this happen?

Do you not think it more likely that all the governments and local authorities across Europe have said to themselves "OK, we should be able to manage this, it'll be Mid-June, things will be better by then"?

Do you even think at all or just blindly spasm against any anti-restrictions post you see here?

I'll try answer some of those once you have a stab of my rather simple one.

You think UEFA should get to dictate our public health policy during a pandemic?

Pandiculation

Well when you look at Europe over the last few months, every country got it wrong, and some of them spectacularly badly wrong, and we are all still paying for it.

European impact of COVID (including the U.K.) has by and large been abysmal and as mishandled as the USA in many ways.

I wouldn’t get too carried away about collective wisdom.

lawred2

Boggles wrote: »

You think UEFA should get to dictate our public health policy during a pandemic?

In that way do you think UEFA are dictating public health policy?

Boggles

lawred2 wrote: »

In that way do you think UEFA are dictating public health policy?

11,000 fans in or we pull the plug?

What do you call it?

Sam Wheat90

Sam Wheat90 wrote: »

No embarrassment whatsoever. Games have been moved from Bilbao to Seville as well. Time for you to stop stirring the pot.

Cities both within Spain, did you actually know this?? :pac:

But sure, the OP pointed this out to you and you then teleported the goalposts to some presumptious waffle about Cork and Dublin.

lawred2

Boggles wrote: »

11,000 fans in or we pull the plug?

What do you call it?

I'd call it a condition of participation. Just like having a stadium up to scratch is a condition of participation.

It's their competition.

We are the only participant who has no plan nor desire to facilitate it.

Pandiculation

It’s a condition of participation, we can’t host it but look at this from a public opinion point of view here. If you bring in 11,000 fans during the pandemic while vaccines are still rollout out and there’s another wave, the decision makers are going to be absolutely pilloried.

That’s the political reality of it.

lawred2

Pandiculation wrote: »

It’s a condition of participation, we can’t host it but look at this from a public opinion point of view here. If you bring in 11,000 fans during the pandemic while vaccines are still rollout out and there’s another wave, the decision makers are going to be absolutely pilloried.

That’s the political reality of it.

A wave amongst whom?

All the at risk cohorts will be vaccinated by then.

Sam Wheat90

Deleted User wrote: »

Cities both within Spain, did you actually know this?? :pac:

But sure, the OP pointed this out to you and you then teleported the goalposts to some presumptious waffle about Cork and Dublin.

I know it very well old bean. Hardly my fault if you`re unable to understand the point I was making in that post.

scamalert

lawred2 wrote: »

I'd call it a condition of participation. Just like having a stadium up to scratch is a condition of participation.

It's their competition.

We are the only participant who has no plan nor desire to facilitate it.

the only thing this shows is that goverment would rather do nothing, imagine work needed to be put in to make it actually work, this is the issue were left with incompetent goverment who would rather keep us in lvl5 then think the way out of this, its sad and pathetic that 5 months in were supposed to be happy having barely 1/4 population vaccinated, and the humpties in goverment are saying sure we will look at things once were up to 75 or whatever they magical number is, its mind numbing times to have few in control that are disconnected from reality, to keep telling us slow we go.

OwenM

niallo27 wrote: »

The Vaccine does not prevent you from getting or spreading the disease, you should really know this by now, its not that hard to follow.

There is overwhelming evidence that the vaccine reduces transmission. Yes you might catch it, but the chances of you noticing that you are infected are miniscule because you won't have any symptoms. It's not that hard to follow.

niallo27

Sam Wheat90 wrote: »

4 games have been moved not 1. I assume you are a Dub boy. If for example games were moved from Dublin to Belfast or Cork I don`t think it would be long until you were moaning about it.

No i am from Clare, has any other country moved games outside their country.

Pandiculation

lawred2 wrote: »

A wave amongst whom?

All the at risk cohorts will be vaccinated by then.

Nothing is certain on anything with this and if you’re looking at it from a tiering of risks of what to do first, hosting international sports events probably isn’t up there.

You start at lowest risk and highest economic and social importance. That likely means getting things like domestic sports reopened and normal travel back off the ground again.

If we can see for sure that the risks are low, you start opening wider.

I’m not sure what the logic of attempting to host a major soccer event in the middle of all this is and don’t think for a moment that our EU neighbours aren’t capable of putting the cart before the horse on this. They absolutely are.

niallo27

gozunda wrote: »

Is that you are just catching up on this now?

Yes you're less likley to get seriously ill if you are vaccinated.

So far we are at 17.8% first vaccines administered and 7.33% second dose vaccines administered.

But hey let's ignore that and do our own thing right?

Even the UK and Isreal didn't start to open until they had a significant amount of the total population vaccinated. Yeah but we know better than them. Fek "Tony and his crew" eh?

What are you talking about, my post said nothing about this, but hey "pints".

lawred2

Pandiculation wrote: »

Nothing is certain on anything with this and if you’re looking at it from a tiering of risks of what to do first, hosting international sports events probably isn’t up there.

You start at lowest risk and highest economic and social importance. That likely means getting things like domestic sports reopened and normal travel back off the ground again.

If we can see for sure that the risks are low, you start opening wider.

I’m not sure what the logic of attempting to host a major soccer event in the middle of all this is and don’t think for a moment that our EU neighbours aren’t capable of putting the cart before the horse on this. They absolutely are.

You're engaging in what ifs rather than dealing with the reality of the here and now.

Make decisions based on evidence to hand not some fear of the bogeyman.

Richard Hillman

We could have 5000 cases a day again but if they are all under 40odd, it doesn't matter. A few days unwell and that's the end of it.

I don't even understand why people are still going for tests unless its required for work. If you feel unwell, isolate. If you are in rag order ring a doctor. You don't need a text message to tell you if you are in need of help.

niallo27

charlie14 wrote: »

I think Tony and crew are well aware of that. The are also aware of something you and quite a few of the "open up everything now" brigade here are apparently not.
The levels of vaccination requred to open up in stages so that we do not have to yo-yo back in and out of lockdown.
Something we are in a position to judge based on the U.K. and Isreal opening at stages due to their vaccination levels.

I have to laugh at this, do you really think this. We do not want to open everything up, we just want to know why we are one of the most restricted countries in the world. Why is the virus here is more dangerous than anywhere else in the world, its hardly an unreasonable question to ask.

OwenM

gozunda wrote: »

Is that you are just catching up on this now?

Yes you're less likley to get seriously ill if you are vaccinated.

So far we are at 17.8% first vaccines administered and 7.33% second dose vaccines administered.

But hey let's ignore that and do our own thing right?

Even the UK and Isreal didn't start to open until they had a significant amount of the total population vaccinated. Yeah but we know better than them. Fek "Tony and his crew" eh?

We haven't randomly vaccinated 17.8%. The most vulnerable are being done first, this justifies, along with the seasonality of the virus a faster opening of society.

Pandiculation

lawred2 wrote: »

You're engaging in what ifs rather than dealing with the reality of the here and now.

Make decisions based on evidence to hand not some fear of the bogeyman.

You’re engaging in jumping into unknowns with what is virus, not a chemical agent. It can, has and will continue to adapt.

Economically, you have to look at it from a risk balance point of view. We’re too far on the conservative side domestically and we need to open up more but you don’t need to add a potentially risky event to the middle of that when the vaccines are only just bedding in.

The data isn’t there to support a decision like that yet. It may be in a few months time but it just isn’t now.

You’re taking leaps into the dark, with other people’s health, lives and economic health too for what benefit exactly?

There are huge numbers of things to open domestically first.

Boggles

lawred2 wrote: »

I'd call it a condition of participation.

Indeed, a condition of participation that dictated our public health policy during a pandemic for their need for money, do you think they should get to do that?

It's a pretty simple question.

OwenM

Pandiculation wrote: »

You’re engaging in jumping into unknowns with what is virus, not a chemical agent. It can, has and will continue to adapt.

That's simply a OMG SCARY VARIANTS argument.

Silentcorner

Richard Hillman wrote: »

We could have 5000 cases a day again but if they are all under 40odd, it doesn't matter. A few days unwell and that's the end of it.

I don't even understand why people are still going for tests unless its required for work. If you feel unwell, isolate. If you are in rag order ring a doctor. You don't need a text message to tell you if you are in need of help.

If you had 5,000 last Dec/Jan (in the depths of winter) you'd create more hospital bed demand.

If you had 5,000 this month, you'd create less hospital bed demand.

That is before you factor in the vaccinated and community immunity.

But we are behaving like it's all about to go drastically wrong.

More and more people are moving about mingling, getting on with life you can see it every where...meanwhile the bureaucrats seem bewildered....all they while they continue to wreck our economy and create an even bigger looming health crisis.

Pandiculation

OwenM wrote: »

That's simply a OMG SCARY VARIANTS argument.

Oh I give up. Bring the bloody vaccine resistant variants in. Sure we’ve made a total balls of the whole thing anyway. We might as well just undermine the vaccine programme while we’re at it. Sure if we don’t we’ll probably “be a laughing stock” - you know the way everyone’s having a good old laugh at Australia and NZ out enjoying themselves without a care in the world.

lawred2

Pandiculation wrote: »

You’re engaging in jumping into unknowns with what is virus, not a chemical agent. It can, has and will continue to adapt.

Economically, you have to look at it from a risk balance point of view. We’re too far on the conservative side domestically and we need to open up more but you don’t need to add a potentially risky event to the middle of that when the vaccines are only just bedding in.

The data isn’t there to support a decision like that yet. It may be in a few months time but it just isn’t now.

You’re taking leaps into the dark, with other people’s health, lives and economic health too for what benefit exactly?

There are huge numbers of things to open domestically first.

So yeah.. a nicely phrased bogeyman variant prophecy. With some emotives to boot.

Pandiculation

lawred2 wrote: »

So yeah.. a nicely phrased bogeyman variant prophecy. With some emotives to boot.

Well if that’s how you want or interpret it, that’s up to you.

All I know is I’ve spent months locked in a 5km bubble because of idiotic and cavalier decision making by those in power over the last number of months when it came to jumping to avoid offending travelling sports fans at the start of the pandemic and later when we refused point blank to control the airports, even with basic testing lest it discommode anyone.

There’s an entire domestic economy to open. There’s huge amounts of sporting, cultural and business activity stopped entirely at the moment that needs to reopen first.

There are sensible risks that need to be taken and aren’t being, but there are risks that just don’t add up at present and this is very definitely the later.

niallo27

Pandiculation wrote: »

Oh I give up. Bring the bloody vaccine resistant variants in. Sure we’ve made a total balls of the whole thing anyway. We might as well just undermine the vaccine programme while we’re at it. Sure if we don’t we’ll probably “be a laughing stock” - you know the way everyone’s having a good old laugh at Australia and NZ out enjoying themselves without a care in the world.

What vaccine resistant variants are you talking about or are you talking about something that doesn't exist.

Boggles

Silentcorner wrote: »

If you had 5,000 last Dec/Jan (in the depths of winter) you'd create more hospital bed demand.

If you had 5,000 this month, you'd create less hospital bed demand.

That is before you factor in the vaccinated and community immunity.

French People in Intensive Care for COVID 19 at a 2021 High

Flu Season in France is dragging on a bit isn't it?

lawred2

Pandiculation wrote: »

Well if that’s how you want or interpret it, that’s up to you.

All I know is I’ve spent months locked in a 5km bubble because of idiotic and cavalier decision making by those in power over the last number of months when it came to jumping to avoid offending travelling sports fans at the start of the pandemic and later when we refused point blank to control the airports, even with basic testing lest it discommode anyone.

There’s an entire domestic economy to open. There’s huge amounts of sporting, cultural and business activity stopped entirely at the moment that needs to reopen first.

There are sensible risks that need to be taken and aren’t being, but there are risks that just don’t add up at present and this is very definitely the later.

Those matches are to be played in the Summer. This is April.

Stormyteacup

gozunda wrote: »

Arthur. You clearly have only read bits of my last comment. Your claim that I somehow believe that "The lockdown was designed to prevent the collapse of healthcare and an enormous scale of death." That smply does not stand up to scrutiny. You may believe that and absolutely nothing else. I don't. The restrictions were put in place to keep the rate of infections low whilst healthcare services can continue to care and treat those who do fall seriously ill. And yes people did die. But with restrictions- thankfully those numbers have been kept relatively low. What has changed? The availability of vaccinations has. That is the game changer.

Btw again I never mentioned the "prospect of healthcare collapsing". You did. And again we are still keeping the infection rate low, so health services can cope as above all whilst now we roll out the largest vaccination programme in the history of the state.

And the fact is - restrictions are being rolled back as vaccination rates increase and with that we have proportionality.

Imagining that somehow we are going to have the government suddenly without reason deciding that they "need the 5km limit back to keep infections low while we roll the vaccine out” is conspiracy theory level stuff. As is the idea that the whole thing is a politics and media driven agenda.

But no nothing wrong for questioning "whether the severity of the restrictions is commensurate with and proportionate to their purpose and the risk they are preventing. "

But to do so - that must be based on facts. And there's only so many times people can point that out with some exasperation.

So just to get this straight -

‘the restrictions were put in place to keep the rate of infections low whilst healthcare services can continue to care and treat those who do fall seriously ill.‘

But that’s completely different to restrictions being put in place to protect the healthcare system from collapsing?

And;

‘Btw again I never mentioned the "prospect of healthcare collapsing". You did’

Is somehow completely different from

‘And again we are still keeping the infection rate low, so health services can cope’


That’s some fancy footwork there.

charlie14

lawred2 wrote: »

You're engaging in what ifs rather than dealing with the reality of the here and now.

Make decisions based on evidence to hand not some fear of the bogeyman.

The reality is that the U.K. and Israel are opening up at stages due to their levels of vaccination. Levels we are not yet at, but are in a situation where we can see if they got it right for each stage or not

There is no other evidence out there when it comes to opening up other than crossing your fingers and hoping for the best.

Ten of Swords

SamWheat90 do not post in this thread again



Everyone else, can we get back on topic please?

OwenM

Pandiculation wrote: »

Oh I give up. Bring the bloody vaccine resistant variants in. Sure we’ve made a total balls of the whole thing anyway. We might as well just undermine the vaccine programme while we’re at it. Sure if we don’t we’ll probably “be a laughing stock” - you know the way everyone’s having a good old laugh at Australia and NZ out enjoying themselves without a care in the world.

There are none.....

charlie14

niallo27 wrote: »

I have to laugh at this, do you really think this. We do not want to open everything up, we just want to know why we are one of the most restricted countries in the world. Why is the virus here is more dangerous than anywhere else in the world, its hardly an unreasonable question to ask.

Got a laugh from yours as well.
You obviously feel from your posts that it is fine to now go directly to where we can have crowds of 11,000.
Have you anything to back up the wisdom behind that. Any data from anywhere that has attempted the same at the level of vaccination we are at, or is it just a hunch because somebody else is going to chance it?

Didn`t India just recently chance it. How has that worked out for them ?

Corholio

It's probably the vagueness of RTE's reporting but Troy (and/or RTE) mention click and collect and non essential retail opening from early May, they also say about a roadmap for hotels and hospitality from late May/early June which seems earlier than initially stated.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0423/1211675-details-of-easing-of-covid-restrictions-next-week-troy/

niallo27

charlie14 wrote: »

Got a laugh from yours as well.
You obviously feel from your posts that it is fine to now go directly to where we can have crowds of 11,000.
Have you anything to back up the wisdom behind that. Any data from anywhere that has attempted the same at the level of vaccination we are at, or is it just a hunch because somebody else is going to chance it?

Didn`t India just recently chance it. How has that worked out for them ?

The matches are on in June. Nobody said now.

_Kaiser_

The stupidity of these "rules" is massive

Was out over lunch looking for a cheap, light jacket for my evening walks so called into Dunnes. They had 2 you could buy, but not the one I wanted less than 12 foot away in the same section (those were blocked off with boxes).

I know it's been covered many times before but it's still absolutely ridiculous.